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      10-03-2020, 11:49 AM   #45
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You mean 991.2 or 992 GTS?

I would only go for a 992, I have enough vanity to want the shiniest new toy . But yes, I might consider the 992GTS (in RWD) when they release the specs. Might save a few bucks going that route, but those 579 horses of the turbo sure are tempting .
I was thinking 991.2. Used GTS's just seem like perpetually good buys, any gen, and the functional 911 equivalent to your CS. Plus continuation with rwd.

But a shiny new 992 Turbo... Yeah, that would work too.
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      10-04-2020, 04:35 PM   #46
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I’ll be keeping my F80 for a while... the next car would be a 991.2 or 992.1. Was going to go there eventually, but the direction BMW is taking sealed it for me.

It’s not just this M3/M4 launch, if you look at BMW, the company is chasing the masses, slapping M on almost everything. I was ok as long as they left the M cars alone, but it looks like they are moving them in the direction of mass consumption, neutering what made these cars stand out. The new M3/M4 is just blingy, see the ad on BMW USA’s site. Makes me laugh.

The more I think about it, the more I think the departure of Albert Biermann, the former head of M, signaled a significant change in BMW. Gone were the tinkerers, the guys who pushed the envelope for M. Biermann’s poached a few M guys with him to Hyundai’s N division, but if you dig around on his reasons he left, he saw the direction BMW was taking M and disagreed with it.

Edit: I’m so glad I got the last M platform that Biermann presided over. If you watch his videos and read his bio, here was a guy who was with M since almost the beginning. His passion during the F8x launch shone through and its sad that M let him leave.

Last edited by CT_M3; 10-04-2020 at 07:11 PM..
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      10-05-2020, 01:15 AM   #47
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M2C/CS do anything for you? That is the only BMW I'd look at now.
M2C and M2cs would both be a downgrade to my M4cs, so what's the point. I am presently looking at a 992 turbo. If I move away from BMW, might as well make it worth it. I would love a GT 911, but too compromised as DD; I need the 4-seats to schlep the kiddies and minimum comfort (I have 3 close friends that own GT3/GT3RS, all 3 said they would never DD them).
I can tell you from experience, if you make the move to the turbo, it'll be permanent.

I love bmw but the 911s are an entirely different animal. Physics defying beasts.
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      10-07-2020, 10:09 AM   #48
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I can tell you from experience, if you make the move to the turbo, it'll be permanent.

I love bmw but the 911s are an entirely different animal. Physics defying beasts.
I can attest to this as well.
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      10-07-2020, 10:28 AM   #49
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I can tell you from experience, if you make the move to the turbo, it'll be permanent.

I love bmw but the 911s are an entirely different animal. Physics defying beasts.
I recently had the opportunity to drive a base 992 C4 on track for multiple sessions. I have to say I was utterly impressed by its driving dynamics. There's grip like there is no tomorrow and the chassis is super lively, communicative and responsive. A real gem to drive.
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      10-07-2020, 11:20 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
The more I think about it, the more I think the departure of Albert Biermann, the former head of M, signaled a significant change in BMW. Gone were the tinkerers, the guys who pushed the envelope for M. Biermann’s poached a few M guys with him to Hyundai’s N division, but if you dig around on his reasons he left, he saw the direction BMW was taking M and disagreed with it.

Edit: I’m so glad I got the last M platform that Biermann presided over. If you watch his videos and read his bio, here was a guy who was with M since almost the beginning. His passion during the F8x launch shone through and its sad that M let him leave.
I totally agree with what you say here. Albert's departure did signal a shift. His interviews signal that pretty loudly. I almost want to buy a Veloster N just to have another car tuned by him.

Edit: unlike some Porsche worshipers that for whatever reason still hang out in the BMW boards, I will not be moving to Porsche or anywhere else.
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      10-07-2020, 04:02 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Edit: unlike some Porsche worshipers that for whatever reason still hang out in the BMW boards, I will not be moving to Porsche or anywhere else.
I was close to getting a 991.1 S, but chose the M3 for practicality. Iíve owned a E46 M3, E9x 335i by the way. I really do think that 5-10 years from now, the F8x platform will be cherished.

What other options if one wants to stay within BMW? The only other option if BMW doesnít mangle it is the M2. The company pushing for profits there are no sacred cows in its lineup any longer it seems.

I watched the marketing video for the new M3 with the drunk party girl driving the M and it made me realize what BMW was after... clearly not me lol.
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      10-07-2020, 04:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
I was close to getting a 991.1 S, but chose the M3 for practicality. Iíve owned a E46 M3, E9x 335i by the way. I really do think that 5-10 years from now, the F8x platform will be cherished.

What other options if one wants to stay within BMW? The only other option if BMW doesnít mangle it is the M2. The company pushing for profits there are no sacred cows in its lineup any longer it seems.

I watched the marketing video for the new M3 with the drunk party girl driving the M and it made me realize what BMW was after... clearly not me lol.
I'm sure it will be cherished. Past generations usually are because all of them are 'the last of' something.

There are lots of options
I still want to see the weight once members start picking them up. I've heard there were rule changes in terms of weight so hopefully the weight gain isn't that crazy. Even if it is, as long as the G8X can take much more tire than the F8X it could balance out.

My only challenge is that I heavily track my cars. If I were not tracking I wouldn't really care and would be happy with a 6MT G80.

There's also the M2 option in the G generation. If it weighs a more appropriate amount maybe that will be the go to. If it's built on the Z4/Supra platform then that bodes well weight-wise.

There's also the option of buying a M4 GT4 to continue the track progression or getting an F82 GTS. And even without changing cars at all, I can slowly continue to build the two track cars into more dedicated machines with interior removals and aero.
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      10-07-2020, 05:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I'm sure it will be cherished. Past generations usually are because all of them are 'the last of' something.

There are lots of options
I still want to see the weight once members start picking them up. I've heard there were rule changes in terms of weight so hopefully the weight gain isn't that crazy. Even if it is, as long as the G8X can take much more tire than the F8X it could balance out.

My only challenge is that I heavily track my cars. If I were not tracking I wouldn't really care and would be happy with a 6MT G80.

There's also the M2 option in the G generation. If it weighs a more appropriate amount maybe that will be the go to. If it's built on the Z4/Supra platform then that bodes well weight-wise.

There's also the option of buying a M4 GT4 to continue the track progression or getting an F82 GTS. And even without changing cars at all, I can slowly continue to build the two track cars into more dedicated machines with interior removals and aero.
Fair enough. I haven't tracked on the F8x yet but plan to do some. But to that end, wouldn't a 991.1/991.2 do everything you mentioned but better than the G8x due to just weight alone? Weight class might change, but the physics of heavier weight won't (leaving the design issues aside).

M2, GT4 or GTS might be the ticket.
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      10-07-2020, 06:33 PM   #54
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Fair enough. I haven't tracked on the F8x yet but plan to do some. But to that end, wouldn't a 991.1/991.2 do everything you mentioned but better than the G8x due to just weight alone? Weight class might change, but the physics of heavier weight won't (leaving the design issues aside).

M2, GT4 or GTS might be the ticket.
Less fun to drive due to rear engine dynamics vs front engine, no space for tires in the car, no space for the rest of the track stuff, etc.

To get a F8X generation car like a 991.1 or 991.2 I'd just keep the F8X.
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      10-07-2020, 07:57 PM   #55
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Less fun to drive due to rear engine dynamics vs front engine, no space for tires in the car, no space for the rest of the track stuff, etc.

To get a F8X generation car like a 991.1 or 991.2 I'd just keep the F8X.
Very true on that space for track stuff. One thing that was a big negative when I test drove the 991 was the actual usable trunk space. I was hoping that the 991 gen would be big enough. When you say its more fun to drive a front engine car, can you elaborate? I didn't have track time in the 991, but it seemed plenty fun to throw the back of the car on turns. The car felt like a momentum car.
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      10-08-2020, 04:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I recently had the opportunity to drive a base 992 C4 on track for multiple sessions. I have to say I was utterly impressed by its driving dynamics. There's grip like there is no tomorrow and the chassis is super lively, communicative and responsive. A real gem to drive.
As a previous owner of a 997TT, you are on point. I've recently test drove a 991.2 and a 992 S, while they aren't in the same "slam you to the seat" league of a 911 Turbo, those test drives reminded me on how the 911 chassis no matter which engine moves it shines in handling and driver communication. I took on-ramps at breakneck speeds at full-send with confidence. I myself am looking to get back into another 911, maybe a 991.2 Turbo or Turbo S. 992 Turbo prices are way up in the atmosphere for me.

Get yourself a 992 Turbo! BMW really has no sporty offerings (aside from more powerful M land yachts that aren't really that sporty) after the F8X.
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      10-08-2020, 08:55 AM   #57
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Very true on that space for track stuff. One thing that was a big negative when I test drove the 991 was the actual usable trunk space. I was hoping that the 991 gen would be big enough. When you say its more fun to drive a front engine car, can you elaborate? I didn't have track time in the 991, but it seemed plenty fun to throw the back of the car on turns. The car felt like a momentum car.
The front engine rear drive formula is easy to drive at the limit and forgiving of mistakes. With the 991 gen Porsche fixed many of the issues with rear engined cars but there's no getting around that's not where the engine goes.

I drive plenty of Porsches at the track as a PCA instructor and have yet to drive one I like more than an M3 An unpopular opinion in a site plagued with Porsche apologists, I know, but I anxiously await the day someone answers my experience with a video of *themselves* driving their Porsche of choice fast. Instead what I get is 'my friend...', 'on youtube...', 'the Ring time...' and other comments worthy of eight year olds in school recess talking about their daddies and mommies and how good they are at doing things the little brats cannot do.
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      10-08-2020, 09:49 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The front engine rear drive formula is easy to drive at the limit and forgiving of mistakes. With the 991 gen Porsche fixed many of the issues with rear engined cars but there's no getting around that's not where the engine goes.

I drive plenty of Porsches at the track as a PCA instructor and have yet to drive one I like more than an M3 An unpopular opinion in a site plagued with Porsche apologists, I know, but I anxiously await the day someone answers my experience with a video of *themselves* driving their Porsche of choice fast. Instead what I get is 'my friend...', 'on youtube...', 'the Ring time...' and other comments worthy of eight year olds in school recess talking about their daddies and mommies and how good they are at doing things the little brats cannot do.
Thanks! I love track driving when I can do it but haven't been in one in a 991. I'm not a P car apologist, I think both brands are amazing; but this latest iteration of the M3/M4 is certainly not what I had in mind for a streetable "track car". More power is not the solution; it hides the fundamental flaws of this vehicle. Imagine if they had the car at the same weight as the F8x. We'd be all excited for the performance figures. The new M3/M4 seems to be blingy and less focused on the heritage of what M3/4 cars were before.

I appreciate the input, coming from someone who has had significant seat time. You're right, everyone seems to cling to some story of someone else driving their car at xxx time to justify and stroke their ego. Kubica's M4 time (with a gutted interior) on the ring is one example. His time (7:24?) if I recall, is faster than any of the published times in the mags for a stock M4(even a M4 GTS). He proves that the driver can make a significant difference with cars at this level so all this internet bragging about mag times seems silly.

I do remember the older rear engine P cars being nervous at the limit and had heard that the 991 gen had attempted to address it with new PASM technologies. That said, I cling to my prior position that my F8x isn't going anywhere anytime soon and will likely be a long term keeper. Very few cars out there that are 4 doors and have the oodles of performance this car has. The new car decision is many moons away.
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      10-08-2020, 10:17 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The front engine rear drive formula is easy to drive at the limit and forgiving of mistakes. With the 991 gen Porsche fixed many of the issues with rear engined cars but there's no getting around that's not where the engine goes.

I drive plenty of Porsches at the track as a PCA instructor and have yet to drive one I like more than an M3 An unpopular opinion in a site plagued with Porsche apologists, I know, but I anxiously await the day someone answers my experience with a video of *themselves* driving their Porsche of choice fast. Instead what I get is 'my friend...', 'on youtube...', 'the Ring time...' and other comments worthy of eight year olds in school recess talking about their daddies and mommies and how good they are at doing things the little brats cannot do.
Well, I did post my impression of driving a base 992 C4 on track for multiple sessions. It was not my car, so I did not push it as hard as I push my M4cs, but I still got a very good appreciation of how it behaves. As I said, it left me quite impressed in terms of driving dynamics. With "only" 379hp on tap, I did not get the grunt I am used to, but the car did not feel underpowered and handled beautifully. And that's just the base model to boot.

Don't get me wrong, I've always loved ///M cars. That's why I have been driving them for the last 19 years. I chose ///M over P for all these years even if I could afford a Porsche simply because I loved the concept of a single multi purpose car. I really loved the fact that my 4-season practical daily driver could spank the more expensive Porsches on track. And when the track day was over, I could pack all my gear including track tires inside the car and drive off. But credit needs to be given where it is due, these latest 911 iteration have move the game up quite significantly, further differentiating them from the M3/4 performance wise.

As far as engine placement, a rear engine car will be more agile than a front engine simply because it has a rearward weight bias. The farther the center of gravity is from the rear axle, the more difficult it is to get the car to change direction. However, as you stated, that rear weight bias can be your enemy once the car lets go, it is less forgiving once the limit has been exceeded.
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      10-08-2020, 10:28 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
Thanks! I love track driving when I can do it but haven't been in one in a 991. I'm not a P car apologist, I think both brands are amazing; but this latest iteration of the M3/M4 is certainly not what I had in mind for a streetable "track car". More power is not the solution; it hides the fundamental flaws of this vehicle. Imagine if they had the car at the same weight as the F8x. We'd be all excited for the performance figures. The new M3/M4 seems to be blingy and less focused on the heritage of what M3/4 cars were before.

I appreciate the input, coming from someone who has had significant seat time. You're right, everyone seems to cling to some story of someone else driving their car at xxx time to justify and stroke their ego. Kubica's M4 time (with a gutted interior) on the ring is one example. His time (7:24?) if I recall, is faster than any of the published times in the mags for a stock M4(even a M4 GTS). He proves that the driver can make a significant difference with cars at this level so all this internet bragging about mag times seems silly.

I do remember the older rear engine P cars being nervous at the limit and had heard that the 991 gen had attempted to address it with new PASM technologies. That said, I cling to my prior position that my F8x isn't going anywhere anytime soon and will likely be a long term keeper. Very few cars out there that are 4 doors and have the oodles of performance this car has. The new car decision is many moons away.
To be clear I was not calling you a P car apologist, sorry if it came off like that.

The G8X's biggest problem for me is simply the weight, 350lb is a huge problem and really hard to overcome.

The Kubica video is awesome, what a skilled driver! There is nothing like watching a pro drive a similar car to what you drive, it is humbling. I'll never forget watching the time deltas between Pobst and my brother and I when driving with him in AER, just incredible.

The 991 cars are fast and the 991 GT3s have serious straightlight speed capabilities. A massive step change from the 997. Their electronic controls have also gotten better and allow people to keep them on while still going decently fast.
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      10-08-2020, 11:27 AM   #61
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To be clear I was not calling you a P car apologist, sorry if it came off like that.

The G8X's biggest problem for me is simply the weight, 350lb is a huge problem and really hard to overcome.

The Kubica video is awesome, what a skilled driver! There is nothing like watching a pro drive a similar car to what you drive, it is humbling. I'll never forget watching the time deltas between Pobst and my brother and I when driving with him in AER, just incredible.

The 991 cars are fast and the 991 GT3s have serious straightlight speed capabilities. A massive step change from the 997. Their electronic controls have also gotten better and allow people to keep them on while still going decently fast.
No worries. I did sound a little like an apologist initially . It's just the reaction to the M3/M4 launch. The 991.2s are the ones I think, where P cars get stupid fast, just even in the base version, highly impressive.

Totally agree on your points. Most of the folks kissing the bumper of the new M3 with no negative things to say clearly are BMW's new market. They just crave the M badge, bling, shiny new objects and most have never seen the entrance to a track that is not a drag strip.
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      10-08-2020, 11:29 AM   #62
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The 991 cars are fast and the 991 GT3s have serious straightlight speed capabilities. A massive step change from the 997. Their electronic controls have also gotten better and allow people to keep them on while still going decently fast.
To underscore this point --

The fastest 991 RS's at Sebring run all electronics fully engaged, on slicks, at IMSA GS (GT4) qualifying pace.

Achieving a lap time in a 991 GT is an exercise in attaining a high level of understanding of the car's capabilities at each point on circuit, then learning to consistently approach those limitations precisely and with confidence.

Examples: How early and how enthusiastically throttle can be applied, how deep into each brake zone, aero/electronic limitations in fast sections. (That last one is the trickiest...)

It's definitely not absent skill, but it's a more analytical, robotic type of process. Hitting your marks. I'm not sure, I really don't think there's any speed to be gained beyond the car's electronic limitations. I've seen no evidence of that being the case.

Achieving a lap time in an M car is an exercise in constantly managing limitations, driver working through and trying to expand them. Any advanced track pace whatsoever is well outside of the car's electronic limitations.

Both processes are awesome, just very different. Depends on what you're after as a driver.

Needless to say, I don't subscribe to the idea that one "cancels" the other. Every time I get in either for a track day, I'm stoked. GTS requires more rotator cuff prep.
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      10-10-2020, 09:04 AM   #63
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To underscore this point --

The fastest 991 RS's at Sebring run all electronics fully engaged, on slicks, at IMSA GS (GT4) qualifying pace.

Achieving a lap time in a 991 GT is an exercise in attaining a high level of understanding of the car's capabilities at each point on circuit, then learning to consistently approach those limitations precisely and with confidence.

Examples: How early and how enthusiastically throttle can be applied, how deep into each brake zone, aero/electronic limitations in fast sections. (That last one is the trickiest...)

It's definitely not absent skill, but it's a more analytical, robotic type of process. Hitting your marks. I'm not sure, I really don't think there's any speed to be gained beyond the car's electronic limitations. I've seen no evidence of that being the case.

Achieving a lap time in an M car is an exercise in constantly managing limitations, driver working through and trying to expand them. Any advanced track pace whatsoever is well outside of the car's electronic limitations.

Both processes are awesome, just very different. Depends on what you're after as a driver.

Needless to say, I don't subscribe to the idea that one "cancels" the other. Every time I get in either for a track day, I'm stoked. GTS requires more rotator cuff prep.
The reason the 911 platform continues to enter these discussions is because the 911 platform is that good. The Shadow guy completely hacking up a driving dynamics discussion is obviously a neophyte level on the track and it perhaps makes little difference what car he drives on the track until he gets more experience.

People like this are best suited to a low hp momentum car until they actually develop car control skills. How do I know this . . . 30 plus years racing and 20 asa racing coach. The commentary says it all.

The F8X chassis is one of the worst I have owned. Period. Maybe decent for the price, but it pretty much sucks compared to what is out there if someone can spend a little more $$& and get a ground up, purposely designed sports car.

Someone with DECENT car control skills will quickly recognize how capable the newer 911 platforms are on the track and sadly the newer M stuff is pretty sad and has to utilize even more electronics because it is using engine power to compensate for poor chassis and handling to achieve respectable results.

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      10-10-2020, 10:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
The F8X chassis is one of the worst I have owned. Period. Maybe decent for the price, but it pretty much sucks compared to what is out there if someone can spend a little more $$& and get a ground up, purposely designed sports car.

Someone with DECENT car control skills will quickly recognize how capable the newer 911 platforms are on the track and sadly the newer M stuff is pretty sad and has to utilize even more electronics because it is using engine power to compensate for poor chassis and handling to achieve respectable results.
M car dynamics have always exceeded the electronic limitations, so not sure what you mean by utilizing more electronics. M's are rudimentary traction control systems, no disputing that, and they have to be turned off.

Basically repeating myself, but the enjoyment of performance driving an M car is that process of grappling with its limitations. If you consider a consistent loss of rear traction some sort of insult to your sensibilities, then yeah, an M car on track isn't for you.

If you've exceeded the electronic limitations and rear traction of a 991 GT, then you almost definitely made a mistake.

To understand the appeal of both cars/approaches, you only need to go back one Porsche gen. Some GT guys still prefer the older, rawer, far more imperfect platform.

And still some other guys enjoy driving something like this, which makes an F8X look as stable as a Merc F1. Since the purpose is fun, I don't understand looking down one's nose at what another driver enjoys. Never happens at track days, only on the forums.

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      10-10-2020, 09:17 PM   #65
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      10-10-2020, 09:22 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
The reason the 911 platform continues to enter these discussions is because the 911 platform is that good. The Shadow guy completely hacking up a driving dynamics discussion is obviously a neophyte level on the track and it perhaps makes little difference what car he drives on the track until he gets more experience.

People like this are best suited to a low hp momentum car until they actually develop car control skills. How do I know this . . . 30 plus years racing and 20 asa racing coach. The commentary says it all.

The F8X chassis is one of the worst I have owned. Period. Maybe decent for the price, but it pretty much sucks compared to what is out there if someone can spend a little more $$& and get a ground up, purposely designed sports car.

Someone with DECENT car control skills will quickly recognize how capable the newer 911 platforms are on the track and sadly the newer M stuff is pretty sad and has to utilize even more electronics because it is using engine power to compensate for poor chassis and handling to achieve respectable results.
Yes, an absolute beginner, LOL

Let me know if you ever make it to VIR or the Glen, I've been doing this for a long time and love running into people who think a car brand makes them invincible at the track --it does not.

Only people on internet get all butthurt when told that car Y can be faster than car X at the track. I'm always hoping one of these Porsche fanboys meets up with me on track but unfortunately they feel safer behind their keyboards spouting out meaningless soundbytes such as 'dedicated sports car'. 'Dedicated sports car' means very little when you're trying to navigate turn 2 at the Glen at an appropriate speed and feel like your life is about to end.
I like shaking the Porsche troll tree and seeing what falls out. One day, one day, one of these people will come to the track and we'll have such entertaining videos for the forum!

Porsche trolls are so convinced of their superiority but if one ever were to come i'm sure it would be at least a 991.2 GT3.
Porsche troll:
1) Spends all day saying a base 991 is better than any BMW ever made because 'purpose built'
2) Comes to the track in a 991.2 GT3+ that's trailered, with extra aero, headers/cat removal, tune, 100 octane 500whp, Cup2R to 'show' how superior the car is vs a M3 that was driven to the track with tires in the back seat. So incredibly lame

I guess these 991 GT3 Cup cars were pretty surprised to see a car that drove to the track, full weight, bfr r1 tires from when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, come say hello in the rear view mirrors.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 10-10-2020 at 10:08 PM..
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