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      10-20-2020, 07:24 PM   #67
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These are the WORST M cars to date. Resale wonít be kind to these.
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      10-20-2020, 07:25 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsm.m4 View Post
So TLDR:
If you tune, you're getting a spun crank hub. May happen in a day, a month, or shortly there after - but you're playing with fire.

That's what I gather from these threads.
I think you are right. Wish I knew this prior to buying it. Terrible to own a high powered sporty car and be scared to mash the throttle to redline a couple gears. I am hardily even putting the pedal down 3/4 of the way. What a disaster. No idea what Iíd replace it with. Itís a shame bc itís a great middle of the road car. Maybe a G
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      10-20-2020, 07:38 PM   #69
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@matty088 All people need is warranty and not tune up to 50K miles, then get the hub fix and go nuts. In both cases you can drive your car 100%.
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      10-20-2020, 07:39 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsm.m4 View Post
So TLDR:
If you tune, you're getting a spun crank hub. May happen in a day, a month, or shortly there after - but you're playing with fire.

That's what I gather from these threads.
I think you are right. Wish I knew this prior to buying it. Terrible to own a high powered sporty car and be scared to mash the throttle to redline a couple gears. I am hardily even putting the pedal down 3/4 of the way. What a disaster. No idea what I’d replace it with. It’s a shame bc it’s a great middle of the road car. Maybe a G
Well... my time of ownership of my M4 is limited - 14 months. But I am not tuned and while I haven't done any hard pulls, track runs, or street racing - I've had zero issues and I don't have a tune. It's stock performance wise. I considered bootmod or another tune like Dinan, but after reading all these threads it's a hard pass from me to tune. I'd rather keep it reliable.
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      10-20-2020, 08:04 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
@matty088 All people need is warranty and not tune up to 50K miles, then get the hub fix and go nuts. In both cases you can drive your car 100%.
4000 is hefty price when you are Simply adding a 500 tune.

I think these cars need a tune badly. In stock form I think the car isnít that fast and is rather numb. I think a tune wakes the car up enough to make it exhilarating despite all the nannies and computer assisted stuff. Itís almost mandatory to have stage 1 tune in my view. Then once u do that you are playing with fire and you canít go back. Once you do it. You over stepped the warranty and flashing back wonít matter.

I am complaining a bit too much about it tonight. But I think itís warranted. I am going to do a CBC and try to enjoy the car. But even that is annoying. 1) most shops wonít do them and 2) no one even knows if it helps.

The lack of clarity around this issue, the cost of a preventive mod, and the cost of a total failure ruined this platform for a moderate enthustis like me who enjoy tinkering with their cars but donít want to make them a full blown race car. So I think in time these cars are going to get hurt in the resale market. Most disagree and point to issues with other generations but this by far the biggest issue for any gen and is a really a plague for them. I know you guys donít like hearing it. But search your feelings.... you know itís true
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      10-20-2020, 08:36 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
4000 is hefty price when you are Simply adding a 500 tune.

I think these cars need a tune badly. In stock form I think the car isnít that fast and is rather numb. I think a tune wakes the car up enough to make it exhilarating despite all the nannies and computer assisted stuff. Itís almost mandatory to have stage 1 tune in my view. Then once u do that you are playing with fire and you canít go back. Once you do it. You over stepped the warranty and flashing back wonít matter.

I am complaining a bit too much about it tonight. But I think itís warranted. I am going to do a CBC and try to enjoy the car. But even that is annoying. 1) most shops wonít do them and 2) no one even knows if it helps.

The lack of clarity around this issue, the cost of a preventive mod, and the cost of a total failure ruined this platform for a moderate enthustis like me who enjoy tinkering with their cars but donít want to make them a full blown race car. So I think in time these cars are going to get hurt in the resale market. Most disagree and point to issues with other generations but this by far the biggest issue for any gen and is a really a plague for them. I know you guys donít like hearing it. But search your feelings.... you know itís true
To be fair,

Modding any performance car beyond stock performance and expecting warranty to cover it is not realistic. Modding the car with a tune leads to shortened life spans if the car is driven hard. My other performance cars in my past, when you tuned them, you are rolling the dice on turbo failures etc. Look at the E92M3, it was rod bearings and you weren't able to tune for more power after that. For other turbo cars, it was the transmission, turbos etc that would fail.

What I'm saying is that once you deviate from stock, something will rear its ugly head in terms of failure. It's just not reasonable to expect to mod and be bullet proof.

Even in stock form, I don't quite agree with what you're saying. The car is already fast in stock form, in most cases, putting power greater than what it specced for. So when is enough? Never it seems. So if I have a stock 500+ hp M5, I need to mod it to 'wake it up'? And if I get x car, I should/must mod as if there is headroom? My point is that at a certain juncture, you have to decide what is enough. If you decide to push the limit and then build in the budget to strengthen the car.

I think that all of us have to just accept the fact that the crank hub is a weak point that BMW should address. My real issue is that they should provide a fix for owners who want to pursue it at a discounted cost.
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      10-20-2020, 08:46 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
I think you are right. Wish I knew this prior to buying it. Terrible to own a high powered sporty car and be scared to mash the throttle to redline a couple gears. I am hardily even putting the pedal down 3/4 of the way. What a disaster. No idea what Iíd replace it with. Itís a shame bc itís a great middle of the road car. Maybe a G
Grab a used 17-18 Z06 / put a Sticky ass tire on it and have at it. LOL
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      10-20-2020, 09:17 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
To be fair,

Modding any performance car beyond stock performance and expecting warranty to cover it is not realistic. Modding the car with a tune leads to shortened life spans if the car is driven hard. My other performance cars in my past, when you tuned them, you are rolling the dice on turbo failures etc. Look at the E92M3, it was rod bearings and you weren't able to tune for more power after that. For other turbo cars, it was the transmission, turbos etc that would fail.

What I'm saying is that once you deviate from stock, something will rear its ugly head in terms of failure. It's just not reasonable to expect to mod and be bullet proof.

Even in stock form, I don't quite agree with what you're saying. The car is already fast in stock form, in most cases, putting power greater than what it specced for. So when is enough? Never it seems. So if I have a stock 500+ hp M5, I need to mod it to 'wake it up'? And if I get x car, I should/must mod as if there is headroom? My point is that at a certain juncture, you have to decide what is enough. If you decide to push the limit and then build in the budget to strengthen the car.

I think that all of us have to just accept the fact that the crank hub is a weak point that BMW should address. My real issue is that they should provide a fix for owners who want to pursue it at a discounted cost.
Hmm. Itís impossible to disagree with what you are saying. Yes. You mod you should expect a shortened life and expect expenses. I think this is just common sense. What is different in this situation is the cost and the level of consequences. Sure. My e46 m3 has potential problems that are inherit to the car. But the are palatable. Ohhh vanos needs a refresh at 100k. This is NOT something that is too bad at all. In fact itís nothing. Itís a car with 100k miles. And the cost is nothing. Or the subframe needs to be reinforced. Yea. That kind of sucks. But again we are not shelling out 30k and literally doing a heart transplant surgery.

So I think all of what you are saying is accurate but itís not really relevant or applicable to the real world. Losing an engine due to stage1 software modifications is total bullshit. And it CAN NOT be justified. Spending 4000 as a preventive mod on a very mild street car is also bullshit. letís call it what it is. If you want to make 700 hop and need to bullet proof the engine and that costs bog bucks. . Fine. Makes sense. But this is not what CH is about. There is a design flaw and if you touch the car with performance enhancing modifications you are exacerbating an already bad situation. And I for one think history will not be kind to these cars. My opinion.

Regarding ďwake upĒ the statement. These cars are known to be sleepy fast. Meaning they are very refined and have lots of tech assistance. Itís not a raped ape. Given that I think itís alittle boring in stock form. The stage 1 tune totally made the car fun. Itís still not a beastly feel but it puts u back jn the seat enough to be exhilarating.

Last edited by matty088; 10-20-2020 at 09:23 PM..
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      10-20-2020, 09:19 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
Grab a used 17-18 Z06 / put a Sticky ass tire on it and have at it. LOL
Maybe a new g80 when lci comes. Thankfully my f80 is one of a few cars so I donít have to put tons of miles on it.
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      10-20-2020, 09:44 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Regarding “wake up” the statement. These cars are known to be sleepy fast. Meaning they are very refined and have lots of tech assistance. It’s not a raped ape. Given that I think it’s alittle boring in stock form. The stage 1 tune totally made the car fun. It’s still not a beastly feel but it puts u back jn the seat enough to be exhilarating.
I understand your frustration to an extent; but here's where how I look at it. We are talking about 500hp cars now with some pretty advanced tech, so any fix is going to cost. Plus you factor in inflation and the $4K doesn't sound that crazy in today's numbers. These are after all German cars.

Note that some of the failures are just timing fixes, not complete engine meltdowns. From what I've read, the meltdowns tend to be highly tuned cars.

I took the poll that was done a while back and just did simple statistics to see what the fail rate was:

I was going to play with the numbers a little more but that's ok, I'm open to sharing this with anyone who reads it.

Because of the smaller sample size of tuned cars, I didn't split between DCT/Manual or year.

Stock: 3% failure rate (out of 555 cars)
450-500whp tune: 11% (out of 227 cars)
500-550whp tunes: 19% (out of 149 cars)
550+ whp tunes: 33% (out of 90 cars)

If you focus on just manual vs. dct (tuned cars only),
Manual: 22% fail rate (out of 146 cars)
DCT: 18% fail rate (out of 320 cars)

Takeaway: if you do a light tune, you'd be silly not put on a CBC, or as Clint would say "You feeling lucky today?"

Assuming the cost of a motor is 15-20K, if you're going to light tune, you need at the minimum, a budget of $1- 1.5k (based on the general probability of failure, so a CBC is probably a good way to go about it.

If you do the VTT complete solution, and I've checked, you can get it done for about 3K. The pinned solution is slightly more ~3-3.5K.

Remember the IMS bearing on the early 997s? That was an 8% fail rate and there was class action on that. This is 3% on stock cars.

Last edited by CT_M3; 10-21-2020 at 08:33 PM..
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      10-20-2020, 10:07 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ejones4541 View Post
Flashing back to stock still leaves traces that BMW will detect. Sorry, but there's no such thing these days of flashing the DME and then reverting back to stock without a trace.
I saw someone on a kies video with a M4 GTS that bought a brand new DME.. assuming to flash that one, so I imagine if you flashed a brand new DME.. your car broke down, you swapped back to the original DME.. would that be undetectable? helluva an effort to go through but worth it.
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      10-20-2020, 10:14 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
I understand your frustration to an extent; but here's where how I look at it. We are talking about 500hp cars now with some pretty advanced tech, so any fix is going to cost. Plus you factor in inflation and the $4K doesn't sound that crazy in today's numbers. These are after all German cars.

Note that some of the failures are just timing fixes, not complete engine meltdowns. From what I've read, the meltdowns tend to be highly tuned cars.

I took the poll that was done a while back and just did simple statistics to see what the fail rate was:

I was going to play with the numbers a little more but that's ok, I'm open to sharing this with anyone who reads it.

Because of the smaller sample size of tuned cars, I didn't split between DCT/Manual or year.

Stock: 555 cars: 3% failure rate (555 cars)
450-500whp tune: 11% (227 cars)
500-550whp tunes: 19% (149 cars)
550+ whp tunes: 33% (90 cars)

If you focus on just manual vs. dct (tuned cars only),
Manual: 22% fail rate (146 cars)
DCT: 18% fail rate (320 cars)

Takeaway: if you do a light tune, you'd be silly not put on a CBC, or as Clint would say "You feeling lucky today?"

Assuming the cost of a motor is 15-20K, if you're going to light tune, you need at the minimum, a budget of $1- 1.5k (based on the general probability of failure, so a CBC is probably a good way to go about it.

If you do the VTT complete solution, and I've checked, you can get it done for about 3K. The pinned solution is slightly more ~3-3.5K.

Remember the IMS bearing on the early 997s? That was an 8% fail rate and there was class action on that. This is 3% on stock cars.
Great write up and info!, wonder what the failure rate is for the CS and GTS
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      10-20-2020, 10:35 PM   #79
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Great write up and info!, wonder what the failure rate is for the CS and GTS
Probably too small a sample size I bet. But based on this sample, 0-3%. Remember that the OTS tunes that simulate CS or GTS are approximations not actual BMW tunes.

CS is almost like stock, almost a stage 0.5, so I'd expect around 3%
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      10-20-2020, 11:15 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deceptiv.M3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ejones4541 View Post
Flashing back to stock still leaves traces that BMW will detect. Sorry, but there's no such thing these days of flashing the DME and then reverting back to stock without a trace.
I saw someone on a kies video with a M4 GTS that bought a brand new DME.. assuming to flash that one, so I imagine if you flashed a brand new DME.. your car broke down, you swapped back to the original DME.. would that be undetectable? helluva an effort to go through but worth it.
Wow, yeah...that's truly effort and intent!!!
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      10-20-2020, 11:40 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
Probably too small a sample size I bet. But based on this sample, 0-3%. Remember that the OTS tunes that simulate CS or GTS are approximations not actual BMW tunes.

CS is almost like stock, almost a stage 0.5, so I'd expect around 3%
was trying to isolate installation error, figured they would take extra care installing those crank hubs
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      10-20-2020, 11:54 PM   #82
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think Gintani explained it well, the 2 piece crank hub served bmw well in the past tried and true, though with modern engines the hub has hit its max.
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      10-21-2020, 09:30 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by White340 View Post
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Originally Posted by Njm4comp View Post
Update it's the timing in my car, have to get all that done, thank you all for the help much appreciated 🙌🏼
The dealer told you that? Do you have to pay out of pocket for it?
Didn't take it to dealer, my friend is a tech at bmw however and told me he warrantied an m4 with the same problem, I just decided to not go to dealer
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      10-21-2020, 09:50 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Hmm. Itís impossible to disagree with what you are saying. Yes. You mod you should expect a shortened life and expect expenses. I think this is just common sense. What is different in this situation is the cost and the level of consequences. Sure. My e46 m3 has potential problems that are inherit to the car. But the are palatable. Ohhh vanos needs a refresh at 100k. This is NOT something that is too bad at all. In fact itís nothing. Itís a car with 100k miles. And the cost is nothing. Or the subframe needs to be reinforced. Yea. That kind of sucks. But again we are not shelling out 30k and literally doing a heart transplant surgery.

So I think all of what you are saying is accurate but itís not really relevant or applicable to the real world. Losing an engine due to stage1 software modifications is total bullshit. And it CAN NOT be justified. Spending 4000 as a preventive mod on a very mild street car is also bullshit. letís call it what it is. If you want to make 700 hop and need to bullet proof the engine and that costs bog bucks. . Fine. Makes sense. But this is not what CH is about. There is a design flaw and if you touch the car with performance enhancing modifications you are exacerbating an already bad situation. And I for one think history will not be kind to these cars. My opinion.

Regarding ďwake upĒ the statement. These cars are known to be sleepy fast. Meaning they are very refined and have lots of tech assistance. Itís not a raped ape. Given that I think itís alittle boring in stock form. The stage 1 tune totally made the car fun. Itís still not a beastly feel but it puts u back jn the seat enough to be exhilarating.
This makes little to no sense to me. I don't even own an F80 so I have no huge reason to defend it, but...

I kind of wonder how much you actually know about older M's because you say you're not willing to fork $4k to bulletproof the S55, but the cost to bulletproof an E46 M3 is as much as that for stock power levels at this age and mileage. It's not if, but when, and then you are playing with fire on the E46 M3 as well. VANOS and rod bearings are time bombs if you don't deal with them (I own a Z4M, so this is on my to do list). Not sure I'd say it costs "nothing" to deal with just the engine. And dealing with the subframe, while it's a pretty common process now, is not something I'd be able to do in my garage by myself. So I don't see how E46 M3 repairs are palatable for you, but not the $4k for the S55.

I think this might be more of the case that this isn't the right car for you and your goals, rather than this car being the "worse M car to date" and having a horrible resale. If anything, this car seems very stout for an M if you just leave everything alone.
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      10-21-2020, 10:45 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
This makes little to no sense to me. I don't even own an F80 so I have no huge reason to defend it, but...

I kind of wonder how much you actually know about older M's because you say you're not willing to fork $4k to bulletproof the S55, but the cost to bulletproof an E46 M3 is as much as that for stock power levels at this age and mileage. It's not if, but when, and then you are playing with fire on the E46 M3 as well. VANOS and rod bearings are time bombs if you don't deal with them (I own a Z4M, so this is on my to do list). Not sure I'd say it costs "nothing" to deal with just the engine. And dealing with the subframe, while it's a pretty common process now, is not something I'd be able to do in my garage by myself. So I don't see how E46 M3 repairs are palatable for you, but not the $4k for the S55.

I think this might be more of the case that this isn't the right car for you and your goals, rather than this car being the "worse M car to date" and having a horrible resale. If anything, this car seems very stout for an M if you just leave everything alone.
its costs 30k to replace the engine on a f80. The CH can go on a new low mileage car. Thats far different from the problems you mention with the e46. I have both.

You are comparing a car thats been driven and maybe driven hard for 100k miles versus one that has 10k miles and is brand new. What is the basis for disagreement. The CH issue is a straight disaster for the this platform. In my opinion it literally ruins the car and i bet once they pop up more commonly on BAT youll see lots of people staying away and the market price will be pretty bad.

Vanos going at 100k is a giant nothing. are you arguing that CH is no biggie compared to the e46 inherit problems that show up after 15-20 years? That is crazy.

Are you arguing the cost to bulletproof a car that is brand new with very mild upgrades is comparable to the cost to bring an OLD car back to new?

Neither make any sense.

Last edited by matty088; 10-21-2020 at 10:53 AM..
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      10-21-2020, 11:10 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
its costs 30k to replace the engine on a f80. The CH can go on a new low mileage car. Thats far different from the problems you mention with the e46. I have both.

You are comparing a car thats been driven and maybe driven hard for 100k miles versus one that has 10k miles and is brand new. What is the basis for disagreement. The CH issue is a straight disaster for the this platform. In my opinion it literally ruins the car and i bet once they pop up more commonly on BAT youll see lots of people staying away and the market price will be pretty bad.

Vanos going at 100k is a giant nothing. are you arguing that CH is no biggie compared to the e46 inherit problems that show up after 15-20 years? That is crazy.

Are you arguing the cost to bulletproof a car that is brand new with very mild upgrades is comparable to the cost to bring an OLD car back to new?

Neither make any sense.
What do you means VANOS going is a giant nothing? It literally grenades the engine if the tabs get caught. This is not necessarily mileage dependent either, same thing goes for rod bearings going at 30k for some people. While an annoyance, CH seems to affect moded cars, whereas the other issues I listed are going to happen regardless.

So essentially, you're saying the difference between the 2 is that one is used and you can get a used S54 for less than the price of a new S55 from the dealership.
1) If you are willing to play Russian roulette with your warranty and your S55, that's on YOU
2) If you're willing to play Russian roulette with an F8x out of warranty, but not willing to spend an extra $4k? That's also on you. No different than if you want to gamble and take an S54 to 100k miles and not drop a dime on preventatively changing out parts.

As an owner of multiple M's, S52 + S54 + S65, I'm all to well aware of what it costs to keep these engines running, yet alone modding them. Hell, you do know this is also from the same guys that made the S85 right?

My point of contention is the part I highlighted in your post in bold. You think that people that can afford to buy cars on BaT will all run away because of the CH issues on modded cars? Doubtful. Like I said, so far, I've only seen the CH issue (once again, I wouldn't be concerned if stock) and leaking intercooler issue as the 2 biggies on this platform. That hardly makes it the worst M car to date as you say, considering there are FAR more maintenance heavy S engines out there. I can name you many engines that scare me more than the S55.
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      10-21-2020, 11:11 AM   #87
Thescout13
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This makes little to no sense to me. I don't even own an F80 so I have no huge reason to defend it, but...

I kind of wonder how much you actually know about older M's because you say you're not willing to fork $4k to bulletproof the S55, but the cost to bulletproof an E46 M3 is as much as that for stock power levels at this age and mileage. It's not if, but when, and then you are playing with fire on the E46 M3 as well. VANOS and rod bearings are time bombs if you don't deal with them (I own a Z4M, so this is on my to do list). Not sure I'd say it costs "nothing" to deal with just the engine. And dealing with the subframe, while it's a pretty common process now, is not something I'd be able to do in my garage by myself. So I don't see how E46 M3 repairs are palatable for you, but not the $4k for the S55.

I think this might be more of the case that this isn't the right car for you and your goals, rather than this car being the "worse M car to date" and having a horrible resale. If anything, this car seems very stout for an M if you just leave everything alone.
its costs 30k to replace the engine on a f80. The CH can go on a new low mileage car. Thats far different from the problems you mention with the e46. I have both.

You are comparing a car thats been driven and maybe driven hard for 100k miles versus one that has 10k miles and is brand new. What is the basis for disagreement. The CH issue is a straight disaster for the this platform. In my opinion it literally ruins the car and i bet once they pop up more commonly on BAT youll see lots of people staying away and the market price will be pretty bad.

Vanos going at 100k is a giant nothing. are you arguing that CH is no biggie compared to the e46 inherit problems that show up after 15-20 years? That is crazy.

Are you arguing the cost to bulletproof a car that is brand new with very mild upgrades is comparable to the cost to bring an OLD car back to new?

Neither make any sense.
It does not cost $30k. You can get a fully built engine for ~$17k - https://carbahnautoworks.com/product...83-m4-f87-m2c/

Clearly you don't know what you are talking about.

Plus, very few SCH lead to full engine replacement and most just need a timing repair which is MUCH cheaper.

Also, I had 2 e46s and both had failed VANOS early in life. One at 15k miles and the other at 26k miles. Thank god I was stock so warranty covered it because that repair is not cheap.

I think you are looking at the past with rose colored glasses.

I guess people just don't realize that manufacturers are not in the business of building cars you can mod to all hell and then pay for your failed engine because of such mods. In fact, I don't know of any business that does that. Crazy how business works.

For the stock failures, that sucks, but the error rate is likely no higher than any past M car.
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      10-21-2020, 11:26 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
It does not cost $30k. You can get a fully built engine for ~$17k - https://carbahnautoworks.com/product...83-m4-f87-m2c/

Clearly you don't know what you are talking about.

Plus, very few SCH lead to full engine replacement and most just need a timing repair which is MUCH cheaper.

Also, I had 2 e46s and both had failed VANOS early in life. One at 15k miles and the other at 26k miles. Thank god I was stock so warranty covered it because that repair is not cheap.

I think you are looking at the past with rose colored glasses.

I guess people just don't realize that manufacturers are not in the business of building cars you can mod to all hell and then pay for your failed engine because of such mods. In fact, I don't know of any business that does that. Crazy how business works.

For the stock failures, that sucks, but the error rate is likely no higher than any past M car.
Parts...what about labor?

People are getting 30k bills for anew engine installed.

Last edited by matty088; 10-21-2020 at 11:39 AM..
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