Coby Wheel
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-21-2020, 11:38 AM   #89
matty088
Major
302
Rep
1,193
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
What do you means VANOS going is a giant nothing? It literally grenades the engine if the tabs get caught. This is not necessarily mileage dependent either, same thing goes for rod bearings going at 30k for some people. While an annoyance, CH seems to affect moded cars, whereas the other issues I listed are going to happen regardless.

So essentially, you're saying the difference between the 2 is that one is used and you can get a used S54 for less than the price of a new S55 from the dealership.
1) If you are willing to play Russian roulette with your warranty and your S55, that's on YOU
2) If you're willing to play Russian roulette with an F8x out of warranty, but not willing to spend an extra $4k? That's also on you. No different than if you want to gamble and take an S54 to 100k miles and not drop a dime on preventatively changing out parts.

As an owner of multiple M's, S52 + S54 + S65, I'm all to well aware of what it costs to keep these engines running, yet alone modding them. Hell, you do know this is also from the same guys that made the S85 right?

My point of contention is the part I highlighted in your post in bold. You think that people that can afford to buy cars on BaT will all run away because of the CH issues on modded cars? Doubtful. Like I said, so far, I've only seen the CH issue (once again, I wouldn't be concerned if stock) and leaking intercooler issue as the 2 biggies on this platform. That hardly makes it the worst M car to date as you say, considering there are FAR more maintenance heavy S engines out there. I can name you many engines that scare me more than the S55.
I think resale value will be affected by the CH issue. yes. I think the market will be smaller too. I think this is a pretty big issue for the enthusiast market. The fact that there are no symptoms and its unclear what causes it stinks. It also can be a very hefty price tag. replacing an engine severely impacts resale. Its very hard to find good work as well. I dont like having big time surgery on my toys bc its seldom done right. Do you own a home? Any time you do something there is always a headache. So its not just the money of replacing the engine. its resale and its being left with a Frankenstein in some cases (no offense to anyone). I have cars with new engines. Its never a breeze. At least with vanos there are signs when shopping for a car.

As an owner I know that it hurts the value of the car from a subjective perspective. Every time I hit the gas i worry. Where as for my e46 I air it out all the time. I am not one to do burnouts and things like that but i love spirited driving. I could and will do a CBC but there is a mysticism with it. People dont even know if it does anything and most shops wont do it. My issue is with the full solution. Bc I add a moderate tune I need to spend 4000 to make it safe on a car with 7000 miles? To me its more paltable to do vanos or rod bearing on a 20 year old car to make it safe to drive hard than it is on a brand new car with a mod that is very common in the enthusiast world. Its not like we upgrading the turbos and pressing the envelope! These are nearly stock cars. No mattter what you say its not going to change my opinion that this issue sucks. ITs my own fault but the issue has evolved as the community learned more about it.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 11:41 AM   #90
CT_M3
Private First Class
226
Rep
165
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 DCT Competition
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
People are getting 30k bills for anew engine installed.
Matty, make a couple of calls and find out. Check with Kies on the East. If it really is that bad an issue here for the F8x, you'd see people just bitching all over the forums.

As I posted earlier, I gave you the stats. $3-4K isn't that big a deal when it comes to M cars. I think a little perspective is needed here.

Now, these are not basic DD cars. If you want power for cheap, its not on this platform. I had an E46M; those RTAB fixes are expensive and if you cost adjust those for inflation, it'll be close to what this is. Then there's VANOS and that is a big big deal.

EDIT: I just saw your response. Yes, adding a solution on a 7K mi car seems crazy, BUT this is a different platform with way more power than the E46. If you want to play, you got to pay the price. The CBC is not snake oil; it does work, but isn't the 100% solution. I would hazard a guess with a CBC, most folks won't spin unless they are heavily modded and beating the car.

As far as market values, I don't think you're seeing the SCH affect resale values.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 12:08 PM   #91
Thescout13
Brigadier General
Thescout13's Avatar
United_States
3496
Rep
4,470
Posts

Drives: '20 F87 M2C, 20 X4M
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
It does not cost $30k. You can get a fully built engine for ~$17k - https://carbahnautoworks.com/product...83-m4-f87-m2c/

Clearly you don't know what you are talking about.

Plus, very few SCH lead to full engine replacement and most just need a timing repair which is MUCH cheaper.

Also, I had 2 e46s and both had failed VANOS early in life. One at 15k miles and the other at 26k miles. Thank god I was stock so warranty covered it because that repair is not cheap.

I think you are looking at the past with rose colored glasses.

I guess people just don't realize that manufacturers are not in the business of building cars you can mod to all hell and then pay for your failed engine because of such mods. In fact, I don't know of any business that does that. Crazy how business works.

For the stock failures, that sucks, but the error rate is likely no higher than any past M car.
Parts...what about labor?

People are getting 30k bills for anew engine installed.
That was a full stage 2 rebuilt engine and installed all in by a local shop in SD (asked when I tuned my M2C with CarBahn to get an understanding of worst case scenario if full failure and if Carbahn didn't come through with its warranty coverage (they would but I'm an attorney and I always plan for worst case)), I was quoted ~21k all in IIRC (was shocked at how low it would be for the Stage 2 rebuilt engine swap).

If I wanted a rebuilt stock motor, $17k all in.

If you are having the dealer do it, no shit it's going to be $30k. But two things (1) they don't warranty the new engine, just an installation warranty, and (2) their labor rate is literally twice any local Indy shop charges. So essentially your paying more for (1) that you still otherwise get at an independent shop. And some good local Indy shops (like mine) are run by former master BMW techs.

At the end of the day, it's your money, your risk. That said, I think your inflammatory comments on this thread are making a mountain of what otherwise really is a mole hill. The solution is simple, don't tune. And if you absolutely need to tune, go with a GTR, Evo, Sti, etc. Oo wait, transmission failures, stock turbo failures, and engines spontaneously exploding even stock impact those cars.... I forgot
__________________
Wife's Car: 2020 X4M Competition, Alpine White on Black Alcantara and Biege
Current Car: 2018 F80 M3CS, SMB, DCT, ZEC, MPE
Recently Departed: 2020 F87 M2C, LBB, ZEC, 6MT (Euro Delivery Aug. 29, 2019, totaled by an idiot in a Camry who then ran from the scene)
Wife's Prior Car: 2018 F80 M3, Yas Marina Blue, DCT, Black 19s, Carbon Structure Anthracite Cloth/Leather Combination, Driving Assistance Package (Euro Delivery Oct. 9, 2017)
Appreciate 2
CT_M3225.50
Gertsee19.50

      10-21-2020, 12:20 PM   #92
CT_M3
Private First Class
226
Rep
165
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 DCT Competition
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
At the end of the day, it's your money, your risk. That said, I think your inflammatory comments on this thread are making a mountain of what otherwise really is a mole hill. The solution is simple, don't tune. And if you absolutely need to tune, go with a GTR, Evo, Sti, etc. Oo wait, transmission failures, stock turbo failures, and engines spontaneously exploding even stock impact those cars.... I forgot
Exactly what I've been trying to get across to him. The #s are clear but he's clearly upset at spending the money to play. Anytime you deviate from stock, expect the unexpected unless you spend some money on safeguards.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 12:38 PM   #93
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
4795
Rep
11,172
Posts

Drives: 08 E92 M3 /07 Z4MR / 99 E36 M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
I think resale value will be affected by the CH issue. yes. I think the market will be smaller too. I think this is a pretty big issue for the enthusiast market. The fact that there are no symptoms and its unclear what causes it stinks. It also can be a very hefty price tag. replacing an engine severely impacts resale. Its very hard to find good work as well. I dont like having big time surgery on my toys bc its seldom done right. Do you own a home? Any time you do something there is always a headache. So its not just the money of replacing the engine. its resale and its being left with a Frankenstein in some cases (no offense to anyone). I have cars with new engines. Its never a breeze. At least with vanos there are signs when shopping for a car.

As an owner I know that it hurts the value of the car from a subjective perspective. Every time I hit the gas i worry. Where as for my e46 I air it out all the time. I am not one to do burnouts and things like that but i love spirited driving. I could and will do a CBC but there is a mysticism with it. People dont even know if it does anything and most shops wont do it. My issue is with the full solution. Bc I add a moderate tune I need to spend 4000 to make it safe on a car with 7000 miles? To me its more paltable to do vanos or rod bearing on a 20 year old car to make it safe to drive hard than it is on a brand new car with a mod that is very common in the enthusiast world. Its not like we upgrading the turbos and pressing the envelope! These are nearly stock cars. No mattter what you say its not going to change my opinion that this issue sucks. ITs my own fault but the issue has evolved as the community learned more about it.
This is probably the last post, because CT_M3 and Scout have said exactly what I think. If you have no problem "airing out your E46 M3 all the time", then you're really playing with fire. Unless you know the history of your car, the tab will at best case scenario drop into your oil pan if it breaks, or get caught in the timing gear and you blow your engine. No mystery code or anything.

As I said in the last page, maybe BMW M's are not just for you, because ALL of them have 1 weak point or another.

Back to the E9x M3 forums I go
__________________
Current: E92 M3 Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige/6MT. E36 M3 Techno Violet/Dove/5MT. E85 Z4MR Alpine White/Imola Red/6MT
Appreciate 1
      10-21-2020, 05:07 PM   #94
matty088
Major
302
Rep
1,193
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Ok I am in the minority. But Iíll stick to my opinion

In any event. Every reputable shop Iíve spoke to wonít do a CBC.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 05:20 PM   #95
SickGTR
Private
63
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 1000whpGTR
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dirt Jerz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Ok I am in the minority. But Iíll stick to my opinion

In any event. Every reputable shop Iíve spoke to wonít do a CBC.
HUH?
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 06:17 PM   #96
sacowich
New Member
0
Rep
5
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP MPE
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

update

Car being fixed by dealer, out of pocket.
Initial assessment is CH replacement, re-timing, cover replacements. No indication of valve or piston damage for now. Hopefully that does not change.
Repair cost $6500.

A bit disappointed after this experience finally owning my dream car. I've worked hard for this. Of course, I take responsibility for flashing stage 1, knowing of this potential failure. Car did feel amazing with stage 1, albeit for 24 hours.

Once fixed, I'm uncertain how I will proceed with this ownership, or not. Sell it? Enjoy stock? Go ahead and have fun modding without regrets? After all, warranty is gone.

Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 07:16 PM   #97
Gunzy
Private
23
Rep
68
Posts

Drives: BMW M3
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: NH

iTrader: (0)

$6500 is way too much. Find a Indy and probably will spend $3-4K all in including an upgraded hub.
Appreciate 2
Ilvez21.00
CT_M3225.50

      10-21-2020, 07:36 PM   #98
Ilvez
Enlisted Member
Estonia
21
Rep
41
Posts

Drives: 535i M-Sport, F10
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Tallinn

iTrader: (0)

Stupid question, but why did you agree to pay 6.5K when proven crank hub fix solutions are available for half than that?

Warranty gone, 6.5K gone, still old crank hub until next spin?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sacowich View Post
Car being fixed by dealer, out of pocket.
Initial assessment is CH replacement, re-timing, cover replacements. No indication of valve or piston damage for now. Hopefully that does not change.
Repair cost $6500.

A bit disappointed after this experience finally owning my dream car. I've worked hard for this. Of course, I take responsibility for flashing stage 1, knowing of this potential failure. Car did feel amazing with stage 1, albeit for 24 hours.

Once fixed, I'm uncertain how I will proceed with this ownership, or not. Sell it? Enjoy stock? Go ahead and have fun modding without regrets? After all, warranty is gone.

Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 08:26 PM   #99
CT_M3
Private First Class
226
Rep
165
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 DCT Competition
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunzy View Post
$6500 is way too much. Find a Indy and probably will spend $3-4K all in including an upgraded hub.
This. If the warranty is gone, go to an indy, get the fix done + the timing for equal or less. At the end of it, you 1) don't really care about the drivetrain warranty any longer 2) get a car that is pretty bulletproof and tunable to whatever power limits you want.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 08:38 PM   #100
PhatLyfe
Captain
PhatLyfe's Avatar
United_States
724
Rep
730
Posts

Drives: 2018 F83 AW/SO ZCP
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Somerset County

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
This. If the warranty is gone, go to an indy, get the fix done + the timing for equal or less. At the end of it, you 1) don't really care about the drivetrain warranty any longer 2) get a car that is pretty bulletproof and tunable to whatever power limits you want.
Correct, if your warranty is gone, there's no reason to get this done @ the Stealership, go to and Independent shop, there so so many of them these days..

@Kies Motorsports will do the job for $4k including the crank hub.. reach out to his he's in south jersey.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 08:42 PM   #101
matty088
Major
302
Rep
1,193
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
HUH?
Huh what? What donít u get. I spoke to four very reputable shops. NONE are willing to do a CBC.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 08:47 PM   #102
TopJimmy
Captain
TopJimmy's Avatar
United_States
415
Rep
811
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 F80
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Chester County, PA

iTrader: (0)

@matty088 if you have to pay out of pocket you can get an aftermarket pinned/splined hub plus the install and work for under 4000. Why pay 6500 to get a factory hub put back in? Forget the factory hub...go straight to the hub-fix and get the CBC on top of you can. Otherwise you're paying 6500 to be at risk again!
__________________
AW '18 F80 M3 Base 6MT | Kies Hub | PJT E85 | BMC Filters | VTT CPs & CBC | Wagner TMIC | ER J & SportCats | AA Signature 3.5in
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 08:57 PM   #103
matty088
Major
302
Rep
1,193
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
@matty088 if you have to pay out of pocket you can get an aftermarket pinned/splined hub plus the install and work for under 4000. Why pay 6500 to get a factory hub put back in? Forget the factory hub...go straight to the hub-fix and get the CBC on top of you can. Otherwise you're paying 6500 to be at risk again!
I get it.
My response above isnít related to that
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 09:21 PM   #104
sacowich
New Member
0
Rep
5
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP MPE
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

I committed to dealer repair, itís happening.
Mistake in retrospect. Wasnít sure how I was gonna proceed with the car. Wasnít knowledgeable enough to understand repair is no different then fix install. Thought more was involved. Car was at dealer, loaner in hand, work and family life super busy. If I keep the car, probably will need permanent solution. Otherwise Iím pretty sure Iíd be afraid to mash it, or downshift.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2020, 09:48 PM   #105
matty088
Major
302
Rep
1,193
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacowich View Post
If I keep the car, probably will need permanent solution. Otherwise Iím pretty sure Iíd be afraid to mash it, or downshift.
Sucks doesnít it.

After reading so much about this and debating people I donít even want to drive my f80 with a stage one. And no one is willing to do CBC. Itís full solution or nothing at the bigger shop s.
Appreciate 0
      10-22-2020, 12:16 AM   #106
Thescout13
Brigadier General
Thescout13's Avatar
United_States
3496
Rep
4,470
Posts

Drives: '20 F87 M2C, 20 X4M
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Ok I am in the minority. But I'll stick to my opinion

In any event. Every reputable shop I've spoke to won't do a CBC.
Lol. This would be a first for a non-dealer shop. Share the names of those shops so we can all avoid them like the plague. Any BMW shop worth its weight can do it and would do it.
__________________
Wife's Car: 2020 X4M Competition, Alpine White on Black Alcantara and Biege
Current Car: 2018 F80 M3CS, SMB, DCT, ZEC, MPE
Recently Departed: 2020 F87 M2C, LBB, ZEC, 6MT (Euro Delivery Aug. 29, 2019, totaled by an idiot in a Camry who then ran from the scene)
Wife's Prior Car: 2018 F80 M3, Yas Marina Blue, DCT, Black 19s, Carbon Structure Anthracite Cloth/Leather Combination, Driving Assistance Package (Euro Delivery Oct. 9, 2017)
Appreciate 0
      10-22-2020, 08:47 AM   #107
SickGTR
Private
63
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 1000whpGTR
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dirt Jerz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Huh what? What donít u get. I spoke to four very reputable shops. NONE are willing to do a CBC.
Well not sure what you call a reputable shop but VAC put mine on. They have to be one of the top shops on the East coast if not the country. Soooooooo, what am I not getting here Chief? Pep boys is not a Reputable spot
Appreciate 1
      10-22-2020, 09:05 AM   #108
Tiff@ForeignPerformance
New Member
3
Rep
5
Posts

Drives: BMW 2012 E93 M3
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Miami, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Njm4comp View Post
Spun my crank hub yesterday, need to drive like 90 miles to the dealer, do you guys think that can damage my car a lot worse? If I baby it the whole way there?
If your car still drives youll be fine if you drive normally. You car is only out of timing by a few degrees. We've had customers go a month without performing the repairs as long as they drove moderately. I do recommend installing a one piece crankhub like INSANE PERFORMANCES HUB. Its keyed and one piece.
If you look at FPautmotive IG theres information on why the oem hub fails.
Appreciate 0
      10-22-2020, 10:21 AM   #109
matty088
Major
302
Rep
1,193
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
Well not sure what you call a reputable shop but VAC put mine on. They have to be one of the top shops on the East coast if not the country. Soooooooo, what am I not getting here Chief? Pep boys is not a Reputable spot
what a clown post from a guy with a clown screename. Shocker

I spoke to Kies, Auto couture, bimmer clinic, munich motorsports. All not only suggest the full solution but even said they wont do a CBC.

VAC is too far for me. I have asked the forum for places to do CBC and i dont get much feedback.

Time to move on.

Last edited by matty088; 10-22-2020 at 10:29 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-22-2020, 10:40 AM   #110
SickGTR
Private
63
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: 1000whpGTR
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dirt Jerz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
what a clown post from a guy with a clown screename. Shocker

I spoke to Kies, Auto couture, bimmer clinic, munich motorsports. All not only suggest the full solution but even said they wont do a CBC.

VAC is too far for me. I have asked the forum for places to do CBC and i dont get much feedback.

Time to move on.
Bro, If you can go to KIES you can do VAC. They are not that far apart. If I ever do the full HUB, it will be at Kies. I was there right before covid hit in February for the full fix but they were backed up and the hub was on backorder. Just a heads up from your neighborhood CLOWN.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST