M3 / M4 V6 Speculation

[Transfer]

I think this would make things interesting. The turbo placement and plumbing would be easier to fit, the weight could go down, and it would feel significantly more special. The S85/65 engines were hand built separately so why not the S55? All in all, given the spy shots it's reaaaally unlikely but I'm all for it.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

These number are only my guesses based on the informations I have, mostly from german forums ... more only per PM.

To Point 2: I think 580Nm is with the overboost function ... and the the V6 has clearly much more potential than my numbers.

And for the weight ... the new M3/M4 will have the lightest chasis ever build in at an car like this, also with carbon composite components ... it will have the lowest unsprung masses you can imagine.
Overall when you think about the new BMW carbon composite you must forget things like the M3 roof or Vorsteiner Parts ... look at the i3 and you see what I meen.

Greets Uli_HH

Thanks for the clarifications. I'm on the fence as to whether I would want an overboost feature. Also, I understand very well the difference between Vorsteiner cosmetic parts and structural weight savings parts. However, I think we agree that there will almost for sure not be any major component of the structural BIW made from carbon fiber, and thus there will be little similarity with the i3.

I'd be thrilled to see CF used in the suspension but I think that is also a huge stretch. It is coming, yes, but at the present time is reserved for F1 and exotics. It is present in the Lamborghini Sesto Elemento and the manufacturer claims it is cost competitive with forged aluminum but I seriously doubt that, at least in volumes of ~10k parts/year. The Sesto Elemento costs how much - about $3M USD...

[Dr. Sound]

Hi there!

I think, it´s time to come here for me!
I´m German and I´m discussing the F80 in the german M- Forum for about 3 years by now at least!
Additional I do know some people with very good connections to BMW and the M-GmbH.

The V6 rumor is quite old, it began in early 2011 and lasts up to today -as you know.

I never believed the "leaked" VIN´s or the very unusual high quality engine bay pics (never ever seen anything like this before!!!).
But for me the F80 engine sound always was the most convincing argument we will get something very special!
The sound analysis you shortly could read here I did by myself too, more than one year ago, using the same software.
I could post the link here, but unfortunately the German M-Forum is a closed "member only" Forum, so you wouldn´t see it!

I measured exactly 7950 RPM in at least 4 different max-RPM shiftings, filmed in several years!
It´s pretty safe to say no N55/54 engine would deliver RPMs this high!
Additional the german rumors (Source: Please read my conclusions later on) of 3,2 to 3,3 liters capacity are so insistend... another hint, the N5X engine basis should be challenged...

But the most important and most impressive hint is the sound itsself!
How often did I read statements like "typical I6", "Yes, like my Performance exhaust on my 335is" or the like.

Sorry, but this is a) not true and b) wrong!

People hearing "typical I6" should go to the nearest ear specialist, I´m sorry!
I did some comparisons, online on YouTube für months! Some of you may already know them!

Here´s the most convincing comparison video:

Here you can hear a short F80 <> Masarati Ghibli comparison:

and here you can hear the brand new Alpina B3 BiTurbo N55 engine, recorded by myself:

and

Trust me: Even with open valves (Alpina F30 has an Akrapovic valved exhaust as standard) there is no !!! similarity to the deep, throaty and on high RPM´s raspy F80 sound!
The most important feature of the F80 Sound:
The F80 engine definitely has a harsh (or better: rough?) note in its combustions. Somehing none I6 ever had or ever will have!
If you don´t hear it, please use a good headset and try again! It´s there!

So, now we have some facts and we have some presumptions and predictions, let´s have a summary:

We most likely will get an engine with:
- nearly 8.000 RPM max
- "one of the best engines BMW has ever made", quote Dr. Nitschke
- an (I6) engine shown clearly in 2011 in high-quality pics and now carefully hided behind dividers and privacy walls
- 3,2 to 3,3 l capacity according to the the german rumors (this is inside information from M-Gmbh, I´ve personally spoken to one, let´s say THE BMW M-engine-Guru!!)
- the official statement, whenever M-GmbH employees meet fans or customers is: It will be a six cylinder. No I6, no V6 will be confirmed by now!
- and, for me - as Dr. Sound- most important: An engine sounding absolutely zero like any known I6, no matter how many Turbos you use!

My conclusion: We will get the V6!
And yes, this engine will be one of the best engines BMW has ever made!

There are many, many other smaller hints I didn´t mention here (f.e. the M5 sales desaster, the realization of the importance of distinguishing the F80 from an F30 Performance or Alpina F30, the very unusual place and date for an M3 Concept (Pebble Beach) and its connection to the F80 zero-series production beginning next month and so on and so on...)

Yes, to all of you I6-believers, there is a high ouput I6 existing which was mounted to a righthanddrive F80 mule... and thats it!
Any other seriously testing F80 you have seen or heared since 2011 had the V6 in it! Trust your ears!

Many greetings from Germany... Ingo

And sorry for my terrible english!

[sharkfighter]

^^^^
Thanks for joining and posting

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

Hi there!

I think, it´s time to come here for me!
I´m German and I´m discussing the F80 in the german M- Forum for about 3 years by now at least!
Additional I do know some people with very good connections to BMW and the M-GmbH.

Welcome and thanks for posting! We're glad to have you here and contributing.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

I never believed the "leaked" VIN´s or the very unusual high quality engine bay pics (never ever seen anything like this before!!!).

I think this is highly dismissive of concrete evidence but it's your right to accept/refuse/filter the available information.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

But for me the F80 engine sound always was the most convincing argument we will get something very special!
The sound analysis you shortly could read here I did by myself too, more than one year ago, using the same software.
I could post the link here, but unfortunately the German M-Forum is a closed "member only" Forum, so you wouldn´t see it!

I measured exactly 7950 RPM in at least 4 different max-RPM shiftings, filmed in several years!

Please share the sound files/videos you have used so we can have some independent verification. I trust you accounted for Doppler effects?

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

But the most important and most impressive hint is the sound itsself!
...
People hearing "typical I6" should go to the nearest ear specialist, I´m sorry!
I did some comparisons, online on YouTube für months! Some of you may already know them!
...
The F80 engine definitely has a harsh (or better: rough?) note in its combustions. Somehing none I6 ever had or ever will have!
If you don´t hear it, please use a good headset and try again! It´s there!

I believe this "analysis" is highly subjective. Until you can point to definitive differences in known I6 spectra vs. known V6 spectra I'm not too inclined to accept this "analysis". Turbo number, configuration, intake construction, sound insulation materials, and most importantly exhaust have such large and masking effects. In fact I suspect with enough effort in exhaust alone (headers and muffler), one could make an I6 sound like a V6 or vice versa. Different sound simply does not automatically mean/prove different engine block configurations.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

- 3,2 to 3,3 l capacity according to the the german rumors (this is inside information from M-Gmbh, I´ve personally spoken to one, let´s say THE BMW M-engine-Guru!!)

If you have it "unofficially" from THE BMW M engine guru that the engine will be a V6 that is wonderful information and must be given reasonably high weighting.

Personally I would be thrilled to see a new, dedicated V6 for the M4 and M3. I'm not attached to the I6 or BMW I6 legacy. I also place significant weight on BMWs known efforts in parts commonality and cost savings to predict any decision BMW will make, BMW and BMW M.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

And sorry for my terrible english!

Like I always say, I wish my German was 25% as good as your English. Cheers

[RMB]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

Hi there!

I think, it´s time to come here for me!
I´m German and I´m discussing the F80 in the german M- Forum for about 3 years by now at least!
Additional I do know some people with very good connections to BMW and the M-GmbH.

The V6 rumor is quite old, it began in early 2011 and lasts up to today -as you know.

I never believed the "leaked" VIN´s or the very unusual high quality engine bay pics (never ever seen anything like this before!!!).
But for me the F80 engine sound always was the most convincing argument we will get something very special!
The sound analysis you shortly could read here I did by myself too, more than one year ago, using the same software.
I could post the link here, but unfortunately the German M-Forum is a closed "member only" Forum, so you wouldn´t see it!

I measured exactly 7950 RPM in at least 4 different max-RPM shiftings, filmed in several years!
It´s pretty safe to say no N55/54 engine would deliver RPMs this high!
Additional the german rumors (Source: Please read my conclusions later on) of 3,2 to 3,3 liters capacity are so insistend... another hint, the N5X engine basis should be challenged...

But the most important and most impressive hint is the sound itsself!
How often did I read statements like "typical I6", "Yes, like my Performance exhaust on my 335is" or the like.

Sorry, but this is a) not true and b) wrong!

People hearing "typical I6" should go to the nearest ear specialist, I´m sorry!
I did some comparisons, online on YouTube für months! Some of you may already know them!

Here´s the most convincing comparison video:

Here you can hear a short F80 <> Masarati Ghibli comparison:

and here you can hear the brand new Alpina B3 BiTurbo N55 engine, recorded by myself:

and

Trust me: Even with open valves (Alpina F30 has an Akrapovic valved exhaust as standard) there is no !!! similarity to the deep, throaty and on high RPM´s raspy F80 sound!
The most important feature of the F80 Sound:
The F80 engine definitely has a harsh (or better: rough?) note in its combustions. Somehing none I6 ever had or ever will have!
If you don´t hear it, please use a good headset and try again! It´s there!

So, now we have some facts and we have some presumptions and predictions, let´s have a summary:

We most likely will get an engine with:
- nearly 8.000 RPM max
- "one of the best engines BMW has ever made", quote Dr. Nitschke
- an (I6) engine shown clearly in 2011 in high-quality pics and now carefully hided behind dividers and privacy walls
- 3,2 to 3,3 l capacity according to the the german rumors (this is inside information from M-Gmbh, I´ve personally spoken to one, let´s say THE BMW M-engine-Guru!!)
- the official statement, whenever M-GmbH employees meet fans or customers is: It will be a six cylinder. No I6, no V6 will be confirmed by now!
- and, for me - as Dr. Sound- most important: An engine sounding absolutely zero like any known I6, no matter how many Turbos you use!

My conclusion: We will get the V6!
And yes, this engine will be one of the best engines BMW has ever made!

There are many, many other smaller hints I didn´t mention here (f.e. the M5 sales desaster, the realization of the importance of distinguishing the F80 from an F30 Performance or Alpina F30, the very unusual place and date for an M3 Concept (Pebble Beach) and its connection to the F80 zero-series production beginning next month and so on and so on...)

Yes, to all of you I6-believers, there is a high ouput I6 existing which was mounted to a righthanddrive F80 mule... and thats it!
Any other seriously testing F80 you have seen or heared since 2011 had the V6 in it! Trust your ears!

Many greetings from Germany... Ingo

And sorry for my terrible english!

Welcome! This has definitely got me thinking more about the possibility of a V6. Very good presentation/information.

[Dr. Sound]

Originally Posted by swamp2

If you have it "unofficially" from THE BMW M engine guru that the engine will be a V6 that is wonderful information and must be given reasonably high weighting.

Just a short answer!
(I have to go to bed right now ):

No, you´ve got me wrong!
He said: "Capacity anywhere between 3,2 to 3,3l!"
He did NOT confirm the V6...like none of the employees do confirm or negate!
For me this is an additional hint the N5X can not be the basis - especially in context with the expected RPM!
And he really is "the engine Guru" ... but any further information about him would be too compromising!

Today I´ve got an email from a very customer-friendly M-GmbH Sales Manager which was very interesting... I don´t want do compromise anybody here again but I can tell you the following: It contained another very useful hint towards an incoming surprise...

After all, there still is no evidence but I´d like to say: The plot thickens!
GN8!

[swamp2]

^ Thanks for the clarification!

One additional thought on V6 engine acoustics.

I suspect that the odd firing (somewhat dated design) vs. even firing may affect engine sound much more than I6 vs. V6.

Odd-fire V6's fire at 90° & 150° increments. They fire at 90° - 240° - 330° - 480° - 570° - 720°.

Even fire V6's fire every 120° of crankshaft rotation. That is 120° - 240° - 360° - 480° - 600° - 720°. These require split crank pins.

Of course an I6 shares the same (even) 120° firing just like the even fire V6, further evidence that they would be very difficult to distinguish acoustically.

[solstice]

Dr. Sound, you just swayed me to thinking the likelyhood of a V6 is now slightly higher than an I6. I think a V6 makes a lot of sense here but the leaks and history had me thinking I6 until now. An M5 engine with two cylinders lopped is as we know 3.3l.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by solstice

Dr. Sound, you just swayed me to thinking the likelyhood of a V6 is now slightly higher than an I6. I think a V6 makes a lot of sense here but the leaks and history had me thinking I6 until now. An M5 engine with two cylinders lopped is as we know 3.3l.

And of course the exact strategy used for the E9X M3, using the M5 S85 V10 and lopping off 2 cylinders to get the M3 S65!

[khanyam4]

v6 it is!

[Gjm127]

I hope it's a V6 but I doubt it...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And of course the exact strategy used for the E9X M3, using the M5 S85 V10 and lopping off 2 cylinders to get the M3 S65!

And, if I am not mistaken, as was the case with the E30 M3 vs the E28 M5 (the head, at least )

[Oliver1]

It has already been confirmed, an I6 making 450 horsepower

[swamp2]

I sure hope that was a massively sarcastic post and video just above. That was funny. Everyone who knows anything knows that dealers nearly ever know anything about not yet released vehicles.

To the others who are immediately proclaiming V6, give me a break. Where is the EVIDENCE? Although the issue was decided long ago at BMW there is little if any way anyone here has any definitive answer or proof. I'm leaning I6 and think there is presently more and better evidence for that conclusion at this point in time, however, I'd be a fool to say that the issue is known.

An additional question for those who believe the spy photos of the turbo charged I6 are BMWs attempt to deceive us as to their real plans for a V6. Can you provide any historical precedent when BMW has done such a stunt of deception?

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by swamp2

An additional question for those who believe the spy photos of the turbo charged I6 are BMWs attempt to deceive us as to their real plans for a V6. Can you provide any historical precedent when BMW has done such a stunt of deception?

BUT can you show me any new M3 in the past where the basic engine layout wasn't known from the early beginings and with the first Prototyps ???

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swamp2

An additional question for those who believe the spy photos of the turbo charged I6 are BMWs attempt to deceive us as to their real plans for a V6. Can you provide any historical precedent when BMW has done such a stunt of deception?

I wouldn't think it necessarily was a "stunt of deception". Even though this M3 Pickup comes close to being just such a thing:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/caught-t...-bmw-m3-pickup



I'm still leaning towards an I6, but I can see three possibilities here:

1: The I6 in the photos are from their test mule and is the engine we will get

2: The next gen will have a V6. BMW M has done their due dilligence and either developed a S55 I6 to compare with a V6, we just happened (not by coincidence I would guess) to get pictures of the I6. Or, the I6 was a early N55 based engine for testing new tech, but is not going into production. (even though I would say it looks very production like with valve cover with lettering that ends with "Power")

3: It IS a stunt of deception. After all, strange that we get such good images of the engine, when everything else has been so secretive... Do we know the source of those pictures, or did they just "appear on the net"?

Anyway, creates som activity and discussion

I'm sure the good people at BMW ///M are monitoring the forums and having a smile at some of the speculation Who knows, maybe some of the rumours are planted, to fuel speculation and anticipation

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

We most likely will get an engine with:
- nearly 8.000 RPM max
- "one of the best engines BMW has ever made", quote Dr. Nitschke
-

i would say most advance, idk about best. i see the engine as a down grade because of fuel prices. but i guess there nothing you can do.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I'm sure the good people at BMW ///M are monitoring the forums and having a smile at some of the speculation Who knows, maybe some of the rumours are planted, to fuel speculation and anticipation
...
Anyway, creates som activity and discussion

Absolutely. Although I am still too leaning I6, the V6 with a totally unique M engine gives me plenty of room for new found excitement and enthusiasm for the car.

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

BUT can you show me any new M3 in the past where the basic engine layout wasn't known from the early beginings and with the first Prototyps ???

I do not know the history well enough prior to the E9X M3 but I expect there are not such cases. But that then too begs the question right back of why all of the secrecy? If there was no need for secrecy about the first V8 M3, why the need now for secrecy about the first V6 M3?

Originally Posted by Boss330

I'm still leaning towards an I6, but I can see three possibilities here:

1: The I6 in the photos are from their test mule and is the engine we will get

2: The next gen will have a V6. BMW M has done their due dilligence and either developed a S55 I6 to compare with a V6, we just happened (not by coincidence I would guess) to get pictures of the I6. Or, the I6 was a early N55 based engine for testing new tech, but is not going into production. (even though I would say it looks very production like with valve cover with lettering that ends with "Power")

3: It IS a stunt of deception. After all, strange that we get such good images of the engine, when everything else has been so secretive... Do we know the source of those pictures, or did they just "appear on the net"?

2 and 3 are basically the same - the car will have a V6. I too am trying to recall the source of these engine pictures. I recall seeing them here but now they are just buried in the main sticky "confirming" the I6. I would almost guarantee that picture did not come about without some sort of "approval" from BMW.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I do not know the history well enough prior to the E9X M3 but I expect there are not such cases. But that then too begs the question right back of why all of the secrecy? If there was no need for secrecy about the first V8 M3, why the need now for secrecy about the first V6 M3?

Very simple answer ... because the M-GmbH made V8s before, not for the M3 but for the M5 ... and there is only one way to make an V8 !

BUT until now and for the future the legend and philosophy from BMW for 6-Cylinder is I6 ... and many fanboys are related to this, when they speaks about BMW and 6-Cylinder.

The M-GmbH has has a different approach ... they seeking the "best engine for overall performance" and this is clearly an short and compact V6. And if they really doing so, its clear that they break the BMW legend tradition and its better not discuss such things for an long time with the fanboy fraction before they could say "...here is the car, test it first and judge then..."

Same problem like nissan with the V6 in the GT-R ... but this car is so good that nobody complains about the break of the glorious I6 tradition.

[Boss330]

Have we overlooked/forgotten this patent application from BMW for a V6 Turbo engine...

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=582941





This certainly is another indication of a new engine direction...

Rumours back in 2011 indicated four (4) different engine layouts being tested for the new M3:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533140

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Have we overlooked/forgotten this patent application from BMW for a V6 Turbo engine...
...
This certainly is another indication of a new engine direction...

I recall that discussion. That sequential/"routable" turbo system seems to be seeking the same goal of a twin or triple turbo system using an electric turbo - less lag. However, for the particular goal of complete lag elimination the electric set up could definitely be superior.

And of course a patent by itself absolutely does not mean that those systems are currently in development nor headed to production. Companies persistently patent stuff that they don't actually get into production.