Autotalent
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-31-2011, 01:30 PM   #1
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
1583
Rep
6,754
Posts

Drives: X3M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Arrow BMW Patents Its Electric Turbocharger Technology. More Power, Less Lag.

BIMMERPOST NEWS
BMW Patents Its Electric Turbocharger Technology. More Power, Less Lag.
71
COMMENTS
Name:  BMW_patent_electric_1.jpg
Views: 79830
Size:  52.4 KB

Turbochargers are a popular technology in the automotive world as of late. It allows rather low displacement engines to have relatively high power outputs, while also managing to return fairly good fuel consumption figures (on paper).

Despite the technology being decades old, some of its drawbacks could still be improved upon. One of these issues is the well-known problem of turbo size. A smaller turbine spools up quicky but runs out of steam at higher revs while a bigger turbine offers enough power at high revs but often is too slow at lower revs which results in turbo lag.

BMW has now patented its own idea on how to address these issues, and it involves the use of an often rumored "electric turbocharger".

We reported before that BMW has considered (or may still be considering) the use of an electric turbocharger as part of a potential tri-turbo 6-cylinder engine for the next generation F80 M3 (the latest rumors point towards a bi or tri-turbo inline-6 as the new M3's powerplant). While we still don't know if the next gen M3 will be powered by an engine with an electric turbocharger, we do now know how such an electric turbocharger would be implemented, courtesy of a patent application BMW submittted to the German patent office.


First, here's an explanation of the electric turbo's individual parts (as labeled in the diagrams):
1) turbo layout
2) turbine
2') turbine axle
3) compressor
3') compressor axle
4) electric motor (and alternator)
5) turbo axle
6) (turbine axle) clutch
7) (compressor axle) clutch
8) gearing


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_0_bp.jpg
Views: 43360
Size:  39.9 KB

We've highlighted and colored the following schematic diagrams to show how the technology works:

Unlike a traditional mechanical turbo layout, (exhaust) turbine and (intake) compressor aren't fixed on the same axle. Via the clutches #6 and #7 both the turbine and the compressor can be uncoupled from the turbine axle (#5). When the engine is idling or coasting, both clutches are open and an electric motor (#4) can operate without any load. Via gearing (#8) the speed of of the e-motor and the turbo axle can be further adjusted.


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_a_bp.jpg
Views: 42500
Size:  38.4 KB

If the driver steps on the pedal the clutch (#7) closes and connects the electric motor (#4) to the compressor (#3). Due to the inertia of the (running!) electric motor, the compressor spools up quickly and compresses enough air to make for a fast engine response, which results in less lag. The turbine (#2) which wouldn't be able to spool up the compressor quickly enough is decoupled due to the clutch (#6) still being open.


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_b_bp.jpg
Views: 41933
Size:  38.6 KB

Once the turbine (#2) has reached a certain speed, the clutch (#6) closes and both the turbine and the electric engine are used to run the compressor (#3).


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_c_bp.jpg
Views: 44464
Size:  37.9 KB

When maximum boost is reached, the electric motor switches to an alternator mode, generates power for the battery, and avoids the turbine exceeding a certain speed. This renders a wastegate needless and ensures sure no energy from the turbine is wasted. If the driver backs off the accelerator, both clutches (#6, #7) open and the electric motor can continue running without any load from the turbine or the compressor.


According to BMW's patent application, this invention makes for a great engine response, particularly during the transition from idling to load. It also renders a wastegate needless and adds efficiency. We can't tell if this technology will actually make it into the next M3, but this sounds amazing without any doubt. Thanks to klaus kneip for his tips!


We'll keep you updated on the subject, in the meantime check out our previous coverage and spyshots of the F80 M3: http://www.bimmerpost.com/m3/f30m3/

Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 02:32 PM   #2
han405
Second Lieutenant
10
Rep
203
Posts

Drives: E46 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

Wow

Wow!
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 02:34 PM   #3
James T. Kirk
Captain of the Enterprise
James T. Kirk's Avatar
United_States
102
Rep
1,424
Posts

Drives: 2011 1 Series M Coupe
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001

iTrader: (0)

Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?
__________________

2011 1 Series M Coupe VO M3 vs 1M Comparo Review
2011 M3 E90 DCT ZCP (sold) * 2010 335i Sedan (sold)
2005 M3 Convertible (sold) * 2003 325i Sedan (sold)
Appreciate 2
      10-31-2011, 02:38 PM   #4
M-Power111
First Lieutenant
M-Power111's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: Not a BMW....yet
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater, FL USA

iTrader: (0)

interesting, this will obviousley solve the turbo lag problem. i can def. see this being on the new M3 or atleast i hope it will be. a tri-turbo sounds better then a bi-turbo.
__________________

BMW=
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 02:41 PM   #5
Jblack4083
Captain
United_States
118
Rep
888
Posts

Drives: E46 ///M3 JB/CB
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Queens, NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?
exactly!
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 02:43 PM   #6
ES BMW
Captain
United_States
70
Rep
883
Posts

Drives: '12 E92 M3 ZCP 6MT
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Florida

iTrader: (3)

I was thinking the same thing about the drawings. It's like the format needs to be as if it were conceived on the underside of a napkin in a bar.
__________________
'12 E92 M3 | 6MT | ZCP
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 02:53 PM   #7
M-Power111
First Lieutenant
M-Power111's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: Not a BMW....yet
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater, FL USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by My E90 View Post
I was thinking the same thing about the drawings. It's like the format needs to be as if it were conceived on the underside of a napkin in a bar.
its like their stuck in the past. i guess if it works then why update. who knows.
__________________

BMW=
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 03:04 PM   #8
positiveions
Lieutenant General
positiveions's Avatar
Lebanon
970
Rep
11,726
Posts

Drives: 19 Tacoma, 16 Golf wagon
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Upland, CA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
interesting
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 03:25 PM   #9
Merlosso
Banned
United_States
24
Rep
495
Posts

Drives: Results
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Germantown, MD

iTrader: (2)

Originally the rumors were that a tri-turbo set-up would be two traditional turbos and one electric one. Now that we know more about this "electric" turbo, it looks to be an evolution of the turbo that adds electric assist to get it spooling until there is enough exhaust gas to take over. This could allow for the use of bigger turbos without the lag that they are known for.

It seems like this could be used to reduce the number of turbos needed rather than be a supplemental turbo.

It will be interesting to see how these are used and how they perform.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 03:36 PM   #10
veightkiller
Brigadier General
veightkiller's Avatar
Canada
64
Rep
4,150
Posts

Drives: e90 335i
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Vancouver,B.C

iTrader: (3)

It's kinda hard to imagine with all the squares in the drawing.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 03:48 PM   #11
taylors335
Major
taylors335's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
1,183
Posts

Drives: Space Grey 08 335i
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: san diego

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 335i  [7.00]
sounds great ..... wonder how these clutch's and motor/gearbox will last with the extreme heat turbines can create !
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 03:51 PM   #12
DDS2015
Major
Canada
429
Rep
1,461
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3CS
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Winnipeg

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2021 BMW X3  [10.00]
2023 BMW M4  [10.00]
Wow this is incredibly brilliant. However, it also sounds overly complex. Also, what will the lifespan of the clutches be? Sounds like it would be a nightmare to fix if something went wrong.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 04:09 PM   #13
M-Power111
First Lieutenant
M-Power111's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: Not a BMW....yet
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater, FL USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDS2015 View Post
Wow this is incredibly brilliant. However, it also sounds overly complex. Also, what will the lifespan of the clutches be? Sounds like it would be a nightmare to fix if something went wrong.
it sounds like this would be 1 contained unit per turbo, so if something goes wrong they might just swap the whole unit out and yes that does sound expensive.
__________________

BMW=
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 04:10 PM   #14
kaishang
Colonel
56
Rep
2,197
Posts

Drives: 2010 E90 330d
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Tricky technology

Although turbochargers by definition operate on exhaust gases. So the electric motor is a supercharger. Or the unit can operate as a turbocharger or a supercharger. Or something.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 04:11 PM   #15
kaishang
Colonel
56
Rep
2,197
Posts

Drives: 2010 E90 330d
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Also I think I will not queue up to buy a 1st model year example of a BMW with this inside....
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 05:05 PM   #16
turb0mik3
turb0mik3's Avatar
246
Rep
2,781
Posts

Drives: E90 335i Racecar
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [8.90]
This will be fun for HPF to do a single turbo upgrade. LOL.
__________________

HG Motorsports | Motiv Motorsport | Sparta Evolution | BBS Motorsports | Sabelt | JRZ |
NASA ST1 SoCal --- 554whp/487wtrq --- 3200lbs <<YouTube Channel w/ Race Videos>>
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 05:14 PM   #17
sojirovskensi
Registered
0
Rep
2
Posts

Drives: 370z
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (0)

Assuming that this tri-turbo technology works, would it be harder to tune than twin-turbo since it involves a technology that most tuners have not experienced so far?
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 05:42 PM   #18
Mr. ///M3 RD
Happy Camper
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
Canada
628
Rep
7,869
Posts

Drives: C63 AMG & 280 SL on Weekends :
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Would have expected some nicer up to date drawings for this presentation ... If one of my designers would come up with this simple building block I would have fired him, since every computer in a design department should have SutoCad installed .... Gosh
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well, now my C6.3 AMG with 487 HP does it too
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 05:51 PM   #19
Zebra99
Colonel
Zebra99's Avatar
Canada
112
Rep
2,855
Posts

Drives: 2011 335is E93
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylors335 View Post
sounds great ..... wonder how these clutch's and motor/gearbox will last with the extreme heat turbines can create !
This will be the new "HPFP" issue, but for the M3's. Can you imagine the headache if this isn't properly test run for years. And it'll cost an arm and leg when it's new, will probably drag up the price for a new M3. I just hope that proper testing is done before they release these cars on the road and another 335i happens.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 05:57 PM   #20
rosskie
Major
rosskie's Avatar
39
Rep
1,118
Posts

Drives: 335
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: albany or

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?

if its very detailed someone can come in and do the same style turbo but different motor or bigger shaft and get away with it.

This way BMW can just say that was our idea u cant use it
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 07:10 PM   #21
NewYearsBoy
Colonel
NewYearsBoy's Avatar
United_States
69
Rep
2,352
Posts

Drives: IS 300
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bradenton FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?
Thats probably why they never work...
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Speed never killed anyone its very important to get that straight, Speed has never killed a soul. Suddenly becoming stationary thats what gets people." - Jeremy Clarkson
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2011, 07:14 PM   #22
Tijuana
Second Lieutenant
5
Rep
217
Posts

Drives: 535xi
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis

iTrader: (0)

This system sounds awesome for maximizing power and efficiency, which is right up BMW's alley these days. The first thing I think of is KERS from F1 with the energy recovering wastegate replacement.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 renders, 2015 bmw m3, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 m3, bmw 80 m3 turbo, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 turbo, bmw m4, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, f30 m3 renders, f80, f80 forum, f80 forums, f80 m3, f80 m3 forum, f80 m3 forums, f80 m3 render, f80 m3 renders, f80 m3 sedan, f80 m3 turbo, f82, f82 coupe, f82 forum, f82 forums, f82 m3, f82 m3 coupe, f82 m3 forum, f82 m4, f82 m4 coupe, f82 m4 forum, f82 m4 forums, f83 m3, f83 m4, m forum, m forums, m3 f80, m3 f80 forum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST