07-03-2012, 11:17 AM | #89 |
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Im sorry but I do not agree with you one bit. You may, may be able to strip some of the engines right down to the core and find a minor trace of what once was a mainstream engine, but engines like the s54 and euro s50 b32 are not tweaked versions of regular bmw engines. Nowadays they are though.
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07-03-2012, 11:21 AM | #90 | |
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07-03-2012, 12:22 PM | #92 | ||
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The red and green paths in particular have long runners. I don't believe for one second that it would be "totally impossible" to do something like this with an I6. |
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07-03-2012, 12:25 PM | #93 |
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Thanks again for the info. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the F32 as are most of the Bimmerpost readers I'm sure.
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07-03-2012, 12:40 PM | #94 |
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Do what you want with the rest of the line but M3 should be NA .
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07-03-2012, 01:45 PM | #95 |
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man, this kind of stuff just makes being in the "M club" more exciting! M3/M4 or not, BMW knows how to build anticipation....
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07-03-2012, 01:53 PM | #97 | ||
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The designation allows BMW to move the car further upmarket and charge a further premium. The 4er family will also allow an eight model series under the F30 with Sedan , Touring and Gran Turismo seperated by the more sporting Coupe , Cabrio and Gran Coupe models. The same with the BMW 2er - Coupe and Cabrio and potential four door would be split from the Sporthatch. Quote:
At this stage details are not essentially important.
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07-03-2012, 02:49 PM | #98 | |
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07-03-2012, 04:39 PM | #99 |
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Let's look at n55 being the base engine for the new M3/M3, specifically the bored vs. stroked issue for a larger displacement. I thought I may be able to conclude that the engine simply can not be bored alone to 3.2 liters, but this quick calculation does not quite show that, neither from pure geometric argument nor from a more engineering based argument. It almost shows it but not quite...
n55/n54 Bore: 84 mm Stroke: 89.6 mm Bore spacing: 91 mm Displacement 2.979 l Cylinder wall thickness between cylinders = 91 - 84 = 7 mm = .28". Just over 1/4 inch. To get to 3.2 l (a rumored displacement) with bore change alone requires a bore of: 2*((3.2/2.979)*(84/2)^2)^(1/2) Or 87.1 mm. Let's call it 87. That would leave .15 inch of material between the cylinders. A shade more than 50% of what you can see in this picture (n54 block shown, these features are identical on the n55 block). Although this looks and feels too thin, engineering is not about look at feel. The stress in this portion of the engine will be roughly σ = peak combustion pressure * (bore/2)/(thickness between bores) (Note: This is the simplest thin walled cylinder approximation, which should be decent in this case.) The peak combustion pressure (really rough estimate) is probably around 1000 psi (full load, high rpm). Anyone want to help me revise that estimate? This IS NOT BMEP, but peak dynamic combustion pressure. Thus going from 3.0 to 3.2 liters by bore alone will increase the stress in this region by the same ratio as the wall thicknesses, nearly 200% in this case (x 1.86)! The wall is certainly strong enough to handle a single combustion cycle. The limiting factor in design here is very likely "high cycle fatigue". This is just the repeated loading of the combustion cycle continuously weakening the material on the thin walled aluminum in this area. A practical limit for the allowable stress in typical aluminum alloys used for heads and engine blocks (say A356 alloy at an elevated temperature of 300 deg F) is in the 13000 psi range. In the new 3.2 l hypothetical design the cylinder wall stress would be about 11000 psi. Very close the 13000 limit. So in short, without sleeving, the n55 could likely enable a 3.2 l engine by bore increase alone. However, it appears to be producing a design very near fatigue limits. Thus, unlikely but not impossible. My prediction for the engine is > 3.0 liter displacement and that will be gained by bore and stroke. I think that was also my prediction before this simple investigation... As I've noted before even 400 hp from a 3 liter engine is already reaching the same hp/l as the Porsche Turbo. An additional reason I think the displacement must be going up.
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07-03-2012, 07:32 PM | #101 | |
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By the way the 1M is not 340 wheel hp but 335 crank hp. The comparison to the Porsche Turbo with 500 hp from 3.8, despite the totally different engine configurations, is fair one. Porsche has been doing reliable high performance twin turbo 6 cylinder engines for a long time. I don't see the first M3 with FI to radically exceed its power per displacement. 450 hp from 3.0 liters would exceed the Porsche by nearly 15%.
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07-03-2012, 08:23 PM | #102 |
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I doubt it. The Nissan GT-R and Maclaren MP4-12c both race in GT3 class and in case of GT-R it also has raced in GT/GT1 as well as few of the other racing series across the world. Also, CTS-V races in SCCA etc.
In time the most racing series will adapt to the influx of force induction and hybrid cars. Infact most already have.
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07-04-2012, 01:24 AM | #103 | |||
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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07-04-2012, 02:51 AM | #104 |
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I know the new M3 and M4 will perform. Nonetheless one can not deny there is just something wrong with a lightly massaged n54 with close to 500 hp in a 65-70k base M4 (guessing the M4 will have even more power than the M3 and will also exhibit engine "reuse" to maximize profit). I guess as long as the cars continue to dominate their classes I can't complain too much. Nonetheless small details like this make the cars undeniably less special and have me looking seriously outside the M brand for the first time in a long time.
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07-04-2012, 03:27 AM | #105 | |
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The first 1M dyno I happened to pull open showed 331 hp (insideline). Either way I trust dyno's about as far as I can toss the crumpled up paper it is printed on. Loss is generally ARBITRARY in a dyno. The only dynos I really trust are from rri.se and they have not done the 1M. Anyway, performance numbers do indicate the 1M may be a bit under rated and I agree that this phenomena seems to exist across multiple FI BMW vehicles. The 335i is clearly underrated. However, the 1M just does not have 390 nor 400 crank hp. No way. 390 crank hp would give the car a superior power to weight ratio than the M3. Curiously enough it never outperforms it. I doubt the internals of the 1M would need strengthened to reliably offer 450 or even 500 hp. It is all of the other stuff - oil cooling, air cooling, oil pump, water cooling/water pump, etc., etc. It almost certainly has a forged crank, rods and pistons already. There is so much more that goes into an OEMs plans around a vehicles power than most enthusiasts can even fathom. I can see the argument that the displacement will be 3.0 liters. I'm by no means 100% sure it will be > 3.0. I just think it is most likely. Also, I highly doubt we will see 500 hp from a 3.0l BMW M engine in any vehicle under development or even in the next after that. That would be a specific power greater than the McLaren MP4-12C. That is simply not realistic any time soon. Again this has nothing to do with what is possible. It has to do with what is CHEAP and that is BMW's new middle name. Massive parts commonality to serve both the above average quick AWD family luxury grocery getter all the way to the "race bred" M cars. This is their road to CHEAP. Don't take my word for it - this has been presented in many a BMW investor presentation.
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07-04-2012, 03:27 AM | #106 | ||
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BUT for me an M3 (until today) was an very special car and that not only meens performance wise ... I am ready to pay an much increased price for an car like an M3 because I get something special an unique ... less than 20% common part are an credo for the M-GmbH (until now) ... an the unique, special and fascinating engine is an important part (if not the most important!) of the Myth M ... I am not really willing to accept an simple "pimped" AG-engine in an M3/M3, what an S55 based on the N55 in any kind would be ... there could the N54/335i(tuning)-Fanboys could say what they want - they just donīt understand the Myth M ... itīs much more than hp, performance and sound !!! Quote:
But I simple donīt beleave that BMW/M-GmbH on the one hand would re-inforce the engine by puting reinforcement bars on the outside of the crank-shaft-housing and eventually on the engine block and on the other hand would reduce the thickness of the cylinder walls ... so increasing the bore of the engine for me is no suitable option to increase the displacement. Also if BMW is doing so, they need complety new pistons which would have nothing common with other engines ... no way much much too costly! The only relativ cost effectiv way to increase the displacement of the N55 is to stroke it ... that this make less sence for an high-pressure and high-reving turboengine is clear. Greets Uli_HH P.S. ... but there are recent rumors, that the rumored 3.2 I6 could be the engine of choise for the coming M340i, which would have probably an much greater Hp-increase than current M...i models. Last edited by Uli_HH; 07-04-2012 at 05:17 AM.. |
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07-04-2012, 03:36 AM | #107 | |
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It is funny how much BMW M USED TO promote 80% different parts on the M cars and REDLINE, REDLINE, REDLINE. Now it's highest price and parts bin cars... Oh well I still may buy one .
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07-04-2012, 12:49 PM | #109 |
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It could be possible to do 447/402 from a benzin version of the tri-turbo diesel design. I would more likely buy a 3.2 though because it has more potential. With those big of back tires I'm assuming higher compression w high boost so w a trick intake setup that improves flow modulation, I could foresee twin dual or twin triple scroll turbos as well. But with turbo lag that's where the third turbo comes in. Listening to the exhaust clips it sure seems like there is a lot flow at low rpms so not sure to compare it to n55 sound, triturbo diesel sound or if sounds similar to s63tu. It appears the cylinders have some room to bore outwards but reinforcing def w aluminum block.
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07-04-2012, 03:40 PM | #110 | ||
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Tuners may believe a n54/n55 is reliable with 450 hp but I guarantee BMW M engine engineers do not. Plain and simple. As well BMW has simply not produced a factory reliable 400 hp with the n54/n55. Quote:
We certainly do agree that a flat torque curve and linear power curve extending to around the 7k rpm range is very likely for the next engine. Cheers.
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