F80 M3 / F82 M4 S55 Tuning

[Alessandro]

comon sense tells me 450 - 500 whp with tune should be doable

[richardg]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

So many people look at tuning as bragging rights. The have X wheel HP or output.

The problem is that this car is a factory RWD 12 second quarter mile car. More power doesn't linearly mean faster anymore. You might increase 30whp and still achieve about the same quarter mile time.

I've driven a 12 second quarter mile car. Frankly, on the street car, it blows my mind. Of course I could enjoy more raw thrust, but at what expense?

This thing is going to be making the rear tires SQUIRM stock with all that torque all over the powerband. The best investment is probably going to be, for raw acceleration, the most aggressive street legal tires available.

But no one wants to go that direction. I'd rather say I'm putting out 500hp.

QUOTE OF THE FUCKING CENTURY

[richardg]

As for me I am turbo illiterate. All I know is that all the turbo cars are faster than mine lol. Seriously though I have to educate myself on turbo tuning and the like. I have had "chips" in the past on my E36M but other than that I have always been a tires and suspension (Boring) modder. I will say super cheap power sounds enticing, but I am more concerned with having a reliable car. I might look like Lewis Hamilton but I sure as hell don't drive like him. I THINK I can exploit the my E92 to 85% tops of what it's capable of at my local tracks. Giving me that much more power isn't going to do shit for me until I improve.

So will I tune my M4? Maybe, but after I educate myself on what's good and there is a track record for whatever tuner I choose.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Alessandro

comon sense tells me 450 - 500 whp with tune should be doable

I would add that 450-460 WITHOUT a tune is very likely .

As has been discussed multiple times in various other threads, the S55 at 431hp is most likely underated by 20-30hp, if not more. This has been demonstrated with most other FI BMW engines.

I am looking forward to see some real world data (acceleration runs/dynos) that will indicate the actual power that the S55 generates.

[JStang]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I would add that 450-460 WITHOUT a tune is very likely .

As has been discussed multiple times in various other threads, the S55 at 431hp is most likely underated by 20-30hp, if not more. This has been demonstrated with most other FI BMW engines.

I am looking forward to see some real world data (acceleration runs/dynos) that will indicate the actual power that the S55 generates.

He is stating RWHP. You are referring to crank HP.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I would add that 450-460 WITHOUT a tune is very likely .

As has been discussed multiple times in various other threads, the S55 at 431hp is most likely underated by 20-30hp, if not more. This has been demonstrated with most other FI BMW engines.

I am looking forward to see some real world data (acceleration runs/dynos) that will indicate the actual power that the S55 generates.

I agree with this 100%. My supercharged S4 is rated for 333 HP. Most tuners baseline it at around 310 at the wheels, implying 360 HP from the factory. A stage 1 tune with ECU removal gets you 420 HP and 390 ft/lb. It mostly plays with the valve timing angle and it is less aggressive with bleeding off boost at the top end.

The problem is the area under the curve doesn't change drastically. The tune is only useful from about 5200 RPM to 6800 RPM. Redline is 7000 but in practice it goes to 7200. It makes a big difference pulling down the front straight in 4th gear at 120 MPH. It only feels a little bit looser revving on the street.

I would get the Dinan tune but I don't expect it will be life changing. Just an enhancement like the completion package.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Your common sense is wrong. Please refrain from commenting on things you clearly have no clue about.

+1 On point

[Alessandro]

Originally Posted by JStang

He is stating RWHP. You are referring to crank HP.

+1

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by JStang

He is stating RWHP. You are referring to crank HP.

Good point, I missed that little "w" in front of the hp

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The original engine (assuming you mean N55) made 300hp with 0,5bar boost. Hardly any boost at all. Under ideal conditions a boost of 0,5bar increases power by 50%. In the real world a bit less. So the base N55 engine makes somewhere around 220hp unboosted. A VERY mildly tuned 3l engine from BMW the N55.

A Nissan GT-R can be tuned to 650hp on stock turbos:

http://aamcompetition.com/i-11658595...r-package.html

Why is the S55 not capable of at least half of the gain (100hp) the GT-R has on stock turbos?

You also need to consider the compression ratio. The GT-R run 9:1 and peak boost around 13psi stock. The M4 runs 10.2:1 and 18 psi. Fuel self detonation is a limitation if you want to run on standard 93 octane. The M4 has a lot less room to increase combustion pressure than the GT-R. My guess is that there is little room left on the M4, maybe just enough for a symbolic boost for the comp. pack.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by solstice

You also need to consider the compression ratio. The GT-R run 9:1 and peak boost around 13psi stock. The M4 runs 10.2:1 and 18 psi. Fuel self detonation is a limitation if you want to run on standard 93 octane. The M4 has a lot less room to increase combustion pressure than the GT-R. My guess is that there is little room left on the M4, maybe just enough for a symbolic boost for the comp. pack.

The M3/4 will only run 18 psi at hot high altitude conditions.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by richardg

As for me I am turbo illiterate. All I know is that all the turbo cars are faster than mine lol. Seriously though I have to educate myself on turbo tuning and the like. I have had "chips" in the past on my E36M but other than that I have always been a tires and suspension (Boring) modder. I will say super cheap power sounds enticing, but I am more concerned with having a reliable car. I might look like Lewis Hamilton but I sure as hell don't drive like him. I THINK I can exploit the my E92 to 85% tops of what it's capable of at my local tracks. Giving me that much more power isn't going to do shit for me until I improve.

So will I tune my M4? Maybe, but after I educate myself on what's good and there is a track record for whatever tuner I choose.

Tune it and you wont be disappointed. More power=more fun.
Oh yeah, i may not look like Lewis Hamilton but i sure as hell drive like him.
With my tune that is

[RingMeister01]

^Lol

[FAM3]

For a 335is owner who is running intake, downpipes, JB4, exhaust, and ethanol making 429RWHP and 505RWHP I can tell you that the f80 is EASILY possible to reach those numbers.

The problem with the 335is is that it cannot hold the power down. Even with the best tires you can fit. The lack of LSD is a big problem and moving into the F80 generation, which is much more of a track car (with LSD), there is a LIMIT to how much power is needed.

I believe people will be able to get it to much higher lengths than they are imagining. Once you catless downpipe/tune and you will be surprised how much the car comes alive. It will scream and I think the perfect combo will be just that. Intake, tune, catless downpipe. No need to run ethanol on a car like this unless you are interested in going fast on the straight line. Remember the M3/M4 is a TRACK car.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

You also need to consider the compression ratio. The GT-R run 9:1 and peak boost around 13psi stock. The M4 runs 10.2:1 and 18 psi. Fuel self detonation is a limitation if you want to run on standard 93 octane. The M4 has a lot less room to increase combustion pressure than the GT-R. My guess is that there is little room left on the M4, maybe just enough for a symbolic boost for the comp. pack.

Which is why I said that 50% of the power increase a GT-R can achieve on std turbos should be possible on the N55... The GT-R can apparently go to 650 on std turbos, if we only consider a 50% increase of that as possible on the S55 we would be at 515hp.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Which is why I said that 50% of the power increase a GT-R can achieve on std turbos should be possible on the N55... The GT-R can apparently go to 650 on std turbos, if we only consider a 50% increase of that as possible on the S55 we would be at 515hp.

50% sounds high but if you know the psi at 650 hp and that this is with standard fuel it would be easier to compare. The GT2 RS as mentioned before makes similar power at similar displacement with 23 psi and the same 9:1 compression rate. That should be about 2 psi extra on the S55 at 10.2:1 compression rate. If the GT-R with 650hp runs 23psi as well it's an increase of 10 psi from stock. 2/10 is 20%.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

50% sounds high but if you know the psi at 650 hp and that this is with standard fuel it would be easier to compare. The GT2 RS as mentioned before makes similar power at similar displacement with 23 psi and the same 9:1 compression rate. That should be about 2 psi extra on the S55 at 10.2:1 compression rate. If the GT-R with 650hp runs 23psi as well it's an increase of 10 psi from stock. 2/10 is 20%.

The 997 Turbo S has 520hp from a 3.8l with 9.8:1 CR. There are several tunes for it like Switzer etc. The first stage is 600hp, then 700 and 800 on street gas.

http://switzerperformanceinnovation.com/web_en/switzer-cars/switzer-porsche/porsche-997/

The 600hp stage would be 470hp on a 3l and the 700hp stage would equal 550hp on a 3l. The 800hp street fuel stage would equal 630hp on a 3l engine (the last two stages has upgraded turbos, but still 9.8 CR).

So, it's definitely doable to get higher performance even with a high CR turbo engine!

[solstice]

Boss330 do you know the boost for these tunes?
Remember the N54 has the same CR as the S55 but run very low boost giving it high tuning potential on stock fuel. You have to check the combination of CR and boost. The S55 is high on both making me doubt that there is much more to be have on stock fuel. You can of course get more hp on the same boost but that means higher rpm and that in turn means large blowers that can generate the large air volume needed to support the pressure at high rpms.

[Savory]

Originally Posted by basscadet

The N54, N55, and S55 are all 3.0 liter straight six BMW engines that are based on essentially the same design.

The S55 is rated at 120+ hp over the other engines. Displacement remains the same.

Much of the "easy" gains the N54 guys got with their cars is already being accounted for in the S55 as it runs much higher boost straight from the factory.

Anyone who is expecting to "unleash the beast" with a Cobb AP or JB4 like you would on a N54 is in for a rude awakening. The stock turbos are already working their ass off, and if you are in high elevations you are especially ****ed.

That said, I do expect to see a healthy aftermarket for catless midpipes and upgraded turbos for these cars. But I doubt many casual daily drivers are going to want to go that extreme. The good news is the internals are buffed-up so this engine won't suffer the atrocious heat-soak issues the N54/N55 cars do.

How did you manage to verify that? We don't know what exact model turbo the S55 has. It could be a twin TD04 setup with a new compressor wheel and bearings, or it could be something else entirely that is flow optimized to the S55. The limiting factor on the N54 was fueling. IF BMW uprated the fuel pump and injectors, there may be more power to be had. With the M5/M6 being any indication, the ECU will be tough to crack. That will probably be the first hindrance for tuning the car.

[ixse]

Originally Posted by solstice

I'm no tuning expert but with a compression ratio of 10.2:1 and stock 18psi I would think the added boost window to run 93 octane with optimum ignition timing is pretty much closed independent on how much more boost the Mitsu blowers can muster. Maybe a tune addict can chime in on this aspect?

my evo ran about 21psi tapering down to 16ish stock.. with added 3port and simple pipings it ran safe 23psi tapering to 19psi all day with added near 50whp. there is always room for improvement on timing, afr, boost. factory always have huge safety margin.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by ixse

my evo ran about 21psi tapering down to 16ish stock.. with added 3port and simple pipings it ran safe 23psi tapering to 19psi all day with added near 50whp. there is always room for improvement on timing, afr, boost. factory always have huge safety margin.

The evo has a compression ratio of 9:1. 23psi should compare to about 20 psi at 10.2:1. The S55 is already running 18psi peak stock.

[Tiago@VRSF]

You'll be able to output at least an additional 70-80whp with bolt ons and whatever piggy back is available first without much issue.

We just put in our order for the first M4 available at our local dealer and I'm confident it's going to respond very well to mods.