F80 M3 / F82 M4 S55 Tuning

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by solstice

Can someone explain to me the notion that the turbos will work at +18 psi at high altitude and several psi lower at sea level? I get the physics with thinner air and the need for higher boost to make the advertised hp what I don't get is why would BMW not run a psi that the engine obviously has been designed and tested to handle at all altitudes? Yes it means that it would make more power than advertised at sea level but so what? It's not like that is a bad thing, why program the ECU to always generate the same hp at all altitudes instead of the same psi, doesn't make sense to me?

Because you aren't normalizing for ambient air pressure in your thinking. The dynamic cylinder pressure under boost is also a reflection of ambient air pressure's. Thus the turbo can boost higher, but cylinder pressure remains the same, as altitude increases.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I have no doubt the S55 engine itself is capable of developing LOTS of power provided there is a turbo mated to it that can make that kind of power. I do not question the engine, I question the turbos. The turbos on the N54 are capable of putting down over 400whp before they run out of their efficiency range. That is a SIGNIFICANT, high ceiling over the factory "300"hp which found the turbos loafing by at under 9psi.

The M3/M4 turbo stock boost will probably be anywhere between 14-18.9psi depending on humidity and altitude. If we just start at the low end in ideal conditions, a factory 14psi map can go as high as...what....20psi? 21? We don't know the flow characteristics of these turbos but my guess is that they're small and are going to have to work as hard if not harder than the N54 turbos (this is based on BMW's claims of lag-free operation and low RPM spool-up)

So no I have no hard evidence. But I have owned turbo cars for 15+ years and have modified most of them and maybe I am not providing the correct science to satisfy your inquiry but I just think it seems highly unlikely that people are going to see 50+whp from this car with a tune-only like they're seeing in the N54 world.

It is just not hard to conceive that this engine is coming from BMW "pre-optimized" and therefore it is really hard to expect significant, inexpensive power gains. For many of you, the stock power levels are PLENTY. But for guys like me who want 4-door sports cars that can run with AMG C63s and CTS-V's, this just isn't enough.

Did you even read this post on the turbos: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=116

And as others pointed out, the designation seems to be Tf035. A normal compressor size for that turbo is 12-14, the S55 seems to have a 17 size compressor side. The flow chart for a std. TF035 with a smaller compressor side supports enough air flow for 220-240hp. With fairly big 17 compressor side the turbos should easily flow enough air for significantly more than 250hp per turbo.

And if the turbine side is small (as it is on the S55 turbos), with a large wastegate that can bypass exhaust past the turbine at high speeds, then you can combine response and high rpm on the turbine shaft with a large compressor side. Electronic wastegates also significantly improves control over the wastegate.

So, it seems the S55 has two turbo's with a small turbine side that has excellent response at low rpm's and spins the shaft at high RPMs. This is combined with a large compressor side that can flow vast amounts of air.

And in one of Your previous posts, did you not call the S55 "humble" and question it's ability to withstand higher power? But now it's only the turbo's you question...

Originally Posted by basscadet

Your response does not apply to my question. Yes, we know the 2 liter in the new AMG makes a lot of power, it is the character of the power and the ability to extract more power from the engine that we're discussing here. We all know that a RB26DETT is capable of immense power (>1000whp), but this isn't a discussion about hp per liter.

I did not mention the RB26DETT engine anywhere did I? I provided plenty of examples of engines with the same specific output as the S55. Because you questioned how many stock engines there was at that power level (plenty it seems...). And all of those cars have multiple tunes available.

So, your question was indeed about hp per liter, as you questioned the level of tune of the stock S55... That level of tune is nothing special as shown by my examples, and also illustrating that a engine at that state of tune has room for further performance increases.



In case you forgot your comments on the "humble" S55 and how it has a "crap-ton of power extracted" from it:

Originally Posted by basscadet

Really? I'm sorry, but what other 3.0 liter turbo engine do you know that is developing as much power as this one is stock from the factory? Am I missing something? That is a crap-ton of power being extracted out of a fairly humble powerplant.

That's just what scares me. I am drawn to cars with engines that are over-engineered and under-stressed with lots of potential left on the table (Mezger Porsche Turbos, GT-Rs, Supra Turbos, Mustang 5.0's, etc). With this car, I'm honestly going to feel like I'm being propelled by something that is a little too similar to what is under the hood of some teenager's '07 FBO 335i.

I would bet good money that this will be the least expensive M3 engine (in relation to car price) ever. It just smacks of irritating thriftiness.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Because you aren't normalizing for ambient air pressure in your thinking. The dynamic cylinder pressure under boost is also a reflection of ambient air pressure's. Thus the turbo can boost higher, but cylinder pressure remains the same, as altitude increases.

No, I get that. But I didn't think there was a difference between cylinder pressure and turbo pressure. I thought 18 psi boost meant that 18 psi boosted air is loaded into the cylinders. If not, where is the 18 psi pressure?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

No, I get that. But I didn't think there was a difference between cylinder pressure and turbo pressure. I thought 18 psi boost meant that 18 psi boosted air is loaded into the cylinders. If not, where is the 18 psi pressure?

In automotive applications, boost refers to the amount by which intake manifold pressure exceeds atmospheric pressure. This is representative of the extra air pressure that is achieved over what would be achieved without the forced induction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_boost#boost


Absolute intake manifold pressure = atmospheric pressure + boost pressure

On a NA engine the intake manifold pressure at WOT could in theory be one atmosphere, or 1 bar (usually less since the engine has to draw air through obstacles in the intake, creating a vacuum). Add a 1 bar boost pressure and the absolute pressure inside the intake manifold is 2 bar. Gauge pressure in that condition is 1 bar (gauge pressure is pressure above atmospheric pressure. The gauge shows 0 at atmospheric pressure and 1 bar boost shows as 1 bar. Absolute pressure is 2 bar because that includes atmospheric pressure of 1 bar + boost of 1 bar).

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_boost#boost


Intake manifold pressure = atmospheric pressure + boost pressure

Yes, thanks that explains why the cylinder pressure is higher at sea level for the same boost and thanks to JoefromPa as well since it's what you were saying.

Do you know if this compensation with lowering boost a sea level was done for the N54 as well or if it's limited to more highly tuned FI cars where margins is a concern?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Yes, thanks that explains why the cylinder pressure is higher at sea level for the same boost and thanks to JoefromPa as well since it's what you were saying.

Do you know if this compensation with lowering boost a sea level was done for the N54 as well or if it's limited to more highly tuned FI cars where margins is a concern?

Not sure

They do it on the F10 M5 as well, but have no idea on other models...

[gee-m-w]

So these new engines Audi and BMW make are really tunable. Stock RS6 dynos at 582 HP and 563 ft/lb. Tunes to 674 HP and 700 ft/lb with software only (93 octane).

I'd guess the M3 will do 505 HP and 545 ft/lb.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Not sure

They do it on the F10 M5 as well, but have no idea on other models...

With electronic boost control, yes it's common. Otherwise you get undesirable boost spikes.

Remember this is one of the reasons turbos are well loved in the mountains compared to NA

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swamp2

But they have publicly stated that their FI engines will exhibit NA level throttle response and lag and will sound wonderful. They incur the extra expense for a couple more years sticking with high revving NA until they feel the technology is a match for their and their clienteles expectations.

http://www.gtspirit.com/2013/12/19/n...bos-at-geneva/

The next gen California (MY 2015) will have the Maserati/Ferrari 3,8l turbo engine that has been in production for a few years now.

So, it doesn't seem they are waiting a couple of years extra after all. Instead using a existing turbo engine, probably with their own specific set up for the California. Will be interesting to see if they retain the cross plane crank from the Maserati version or use a flat plane crank...

From an interview with Ferrari CEO Amadeo Felisa:

I'd asked him about turbos in general. "Turbocharging and direct gasoline injection is the right way for performance without a payment in consumption. To get the same performance with naturally aspirated engines at the same consumption is difficult." OK, I ask, so turbo would be good for the next California?

"Today's California doesn't lack performance…" But then he adds. "To evolve performance as we have the past four or five years, turbo is a solution." Won't that mean losing the engine sound that's so critical to being a Ferrari, and the sharp throttle response? He shakes his head. "Wait and see."

I ask if this means using an additional electric motor. "LaFerrari was done to research hybrids. But it's not affordable on our normal cars. You don't need an electric motor to offset turbo lag. You can do it in another way."

So onward goes the relentless march of the turbo engine. Still, even for Ferrari, some things are sacred. "We will keep the V12 naturally aspirated," Felisa says.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/n...rbo-2013-11-18

[gee-m-w]

I'm having troubling placing in my head what an M5 and an M3 actually are in BMW world. In some ways I have trouble differentiating whether this car is an M335i or a true M3. I know BMW doesn't fit a car with anything more than 1 wheel drive unless it is an M car, which is why I bought an S4 for $48k instead of a 335i. That, and my S4 doesn't overheat on a road course or have fuel pump reliability issues.

My primary concern right now is that not Dinan (nor anyone else) has released a tune for the M5. Either the ECU is too hard to crack, or M has done all of the tuning work and there's nothing appreciable left. The 4.4 twin turbo V8 is in both the 550i and the M5. Dinan tuned up the 550i very nicely, matching or exceeding the M5 output.

I'm concerned that we're all going to be buying a factory tuned 335i for $70,000. I'm concerned that there may be no tuning potential left in this engine because it's going to be burning hotter than a foundry oven. I'm concerned that it isn't even appropriate to run 500 HP through a RWD car with 255 tires and hollow output shafts (for weight savings). And lastly I'm concerned that there is probably $30,000 of profit in this car (loaded) so I'm not really sure what I'm buying over a 328i with halogens and incandescent bulbs.

Someone talk me out of this line of thinking.

[ixse]

lol factory tuned 335? i think you need to just stay in audi forums. enjoy your dd s4. you obviously have zero concept of what new f8x will be.. search is your friend.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by ixse

lol factory tuned 335? i think you need to just stay in audi forums. enjoy your dd s4. you obviously have zero concept of what new f8x will be.. search is your friend.

Indeed!

[gee-m-w]

I've read everything and started a few threads where we discovered some good info. I'm not a BMW hater, I just might more likely be a buyer of an M235i than an M4.

[Dawko]

It's always nice to have an extra power output available aftermarket, but if more power is what you seek, look for another car. Simple as that no?

I've learned my lesson the hard way after an Audi escapade on a 1yr old B8..

[solstice]

IMO, the M car has always been factory tuned standard cars except for a few. The M1, E60 M5 and E90 M3 are exceptions due to their insane and unique engines. Engines that reaches far beyond their price point ( well the M1 was more fairly priced ).

Now we are back to normal in this regard. From specifications I regard the M4 to be an upgraded and tuned 435i. BUT it is this obsessive tuning,attention to details, years of testing on top of what the standard car already gone through that results in the M magic we all experienced that is worth every penny charged. However the F10 M5 showed us that the M formula does rely on that the bones are good. It's just so much M can do when left with hot rodding a boat.

[Patronus86]

I thought BMW fixed the overheating and fuel pump issues early on the in E90 series lineup. Not really sure if you are debating on whether to get a m5 or m3...so here is my take:

First off, as good a job as Dinan does with its tuning and aftermarket packages, it still is just that...an aftermarket provider. Regardless of how much hp and torque dinan adds to a baseline 3 series or 5 series, they still don't offer the same overall performance package (handling, reliability, consistency, ect.) as their rivals/counterparts in BMW's M Performance series. And if you decide to get a dinanized version of a m car, you get much more bang for your buck with BMW. A fully upgraded Dinan M3 with 500+ hp will cost 93k at least (31k in upgrades + 62k base price). For that kind of performance, why not just spend a bit more for the m6 and get the peace of mind of having a well-designed car?

Dinan still has a role to play in upgrading and fine tuning cars (new and used) to meet owner needs. But when it comes to buying brand new, I don't think anyone can rival BMW's performance and reliability for the price you pay.

As for your fear that the 70k M3 will simply be a factory tuned version of the 335...I think it is the other way around. The M3/M4, much like previous versions of the M3, will be a unique car/setup with 50% of its components being standalone. The S55 engine, though derived from the twinscrolled turbo charged n55 used in the current 3 series, will have twin turbos and vastly more hp and torque. The 3 and 4 series will have the option to upgrade to certain M performance parts and receive a factory tune in a sense, though the it seems the performance gap will still be significant.

As for your concerns about overheating and the new carbon fiber parts breaking...time will tell. BMW certainly has a lot of experience doing this, and I find it hard to believe that they would produce a performance car without thoroughly testing and refining it. I'm not saying that there won't be design kinks in the first year, but the M brand has a reputation, and you will have a warranty. You are right, the price is high for M performance cars (though still reasonable when you compare it to other European performance cars), but that has always been the case.

In terms of putting 500hp to the rear wheels (I assume you meant through aftermarket modding)...I'm no engineer but that seems unlikely with the m3/m4's s55 3.0 liter. Turbo charging or not, I'd assume there is a limit to what hp you can achieve with that kind of displacement. BMW is getting back to its roots with the new M3/M4 (everyone seems to forget that the last generation of V8 M3's was an exception to the norm). If you want 500hp at the rear wheels, a) mod an E92 M3 b) get pretty much any American v8 muscle and supercharge it c) save up for a m6 or more expensive euro v8. I don't know what else to tell you other than your expectations for a 3.0 liter are unrealistic.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

IMO, the M car has always been factory tuned standard cars except for a few. The M1, E60 M5 and E90 M3 are exceptions due to their insane and unique engines. Engines that reaches far beyond their price point ( well the M1 was more fairly priced ).

Now we are back to normal in this regard. From specifications I regard the M4 to be an upgraded and tuned 435i. BUT it is this obsessive tuning,attention to details, years of testing on top of what the standard car already gone through that results in the M magic we all experienced that is worth every penny charged. However the F10 M5 showed us that the M formula does rely on that the bones are good. It's just so much M can do when left with hot rodding a boat.

Even though the straight six engines in previous M3's also are quite "exotic", they are not as crazy as the S65/85. I would say that the M88/S38 M1 and M5 engines conceptually are quite close though as that engine is based on a racing engine.

Whether we will see such "crazy" engines in M cars remain to be seen, but the S65/85 was probably the culmination of NA M engines...

BTW, there are many pleased F10 M5 owners and even positive magazine reviews. So it's not all doom and gloom

[Tylerstar]

As of right now no they are not tunable. There is plenty gains to handle but no can crack it. If your thinking your gonna buy an M4 and tune it and easily get 500-600hp think twice. Amg would be a better option if your looking to tune it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Patronus86

I thought BMW fixed the overheating and fuel pump issues early on the in E90 series lineup. Not really sure if you are debating on whether to get a m5 or m3...so here is my take:

First off, as good a job as Dinan does with its tuning and aftermarket packages, it still is just that...an aftermarket provider. Regardless of how much hp and torque dinan adds to a baseline 3 series or 5 series, they still don't offer the same overall performance package (handling, reliability, consistency, ect.) as their rivals/counterparts in BMW's M Performance series. And if you decide to get a dinanized version of a m car, you get much more bang for your buck with BMW. A fully upgraded Dinan M3 with 500+ hp will cost 93k at least (31k in upgrades + 62k base price). For that kind of performance, why not just spend a bit more for the m6 and get the peace of mind of having a well-designed car?

Dinan still has a role to play in upgrading and fine tuning cars (new and used) to meet owner needs. But when it comes to buying brand new, I don't think anyone can rival BMW's performance and reliability for the price you pay.

As for your fear that the 70k M3 will simply be a factory tuned version of the 335...I think it is the other way around. The M3/M4, much like previous versions of the M3, will be a unique car/setup with 50% of its components being standalone. The S55 engine, though derived from the twinscrolled turbo charged n55 used in the current 3 series, will have twin turbos and vastly more hp and torque. The 3 and 4 series will have the option to upgrade to certain M performance parts and receive a factory tune in a sense, though the it seems the performance gap will still be significant.

As for your concerns about overheating and the new carbon fiber parts breaking...time will tell. BMW certainly has a lot of experience doing this, and I find it hard to believe that they would produce a performance car without thoroughly testing and refining it. I'm not saying that there won't be design kinds in the first year, but the M brand has a reputation, and you will have a warranty. You are right, the price is high for M performance cars (though still reasonable when you compare it to other European performance cars), but that has always been the case.

In terms of putting 500hp to the rear wheels (I assume you meant through aftermarket modding)...I'm no engineer but that seems unlikely with the m3/m4's s55 3.0 liter. Turbo charging or not, I'd assume there is a limit to what hp you can achieve with that kind of displacement. BMW is getting back to its roots with the new M3/M4 (everyone seems to forget that the last generation of V8 M3's was an exception to the norm). If you want 500hp at the rear wheels, a) mod an E92 M3 b) get pretty much any American v8 muscle and supercharge it c) save up for a m6 or more expensive euro v8. I don't know what else to tell you other than your expectations for a 3.0 liter are unrealistic.

One point.....


....people were able to eclipse the 500 HP mark in E46 M3's, so I don't think engine size is the factor (..especially when you consider that there are high horsepower 3.0 liter N54 cars running around). The limiting factor is the software.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I'm having troubling placing in my head what an M5 and an M3 actually are in BMW world. In some ways I have trouble differentiating whether this car is an M335i or a true M3. I know BMW doesn't fit a car with anything more than 1 wheel drive unless it is an M car, which is why I bought an S4 for $48k instead of a 335i. That, and my S4 doesn't overheat on a road course or have fuel pump reliability issues.

My primary concern right now is that not Dinan (nor anyone else) has released a tune for the M5. Either the ECU is too hard to crack, or M has done all of the tuning work and there's nothing appreciable left. The 4.4 twin turbo V8 is in both the 550i and the M5. Dinan tuned up the 550i very nicely, matching or exceeding the M5 output.

I'm concerned that we're all going to be buying a factory tuned 335i for $70,000. I'm concerned that there may be no tuning potential left in this engine because it's going to be burning hotter than a foundry oven. I'm concerned that it isn't even appropriate to run 500 HP through a RWD car with 255 tires and hollow output shafts (for weight savings). And lastly I'm concerned that there is probably $30,000 of profit in this car (loaded) so I'm not really sure what I'm buying over a 328i with halogens and incandescent bulbs.

Someone talk me out of this line of thinking.

Did/do you have trouble differentiating a E36 330i and M3, or E46 330i and M3?

And companies like Manhart, G-Power, Hartge and AcSchnitzer all have tunes for the F10 M5. Manhart have a verified 700+hp version of the F10 M5.

[Ezio]

if i was buying a M4 i wouldn't buy it based off of how well it can be tuned. people didn't buy older generations based off that either. we are not driving Japanese cars here.

with that said. yes i think its still fun to mod cars. i do see the value in modding a M4. i think its kind of ballz to mod a brand new M car with brand new M motor though.

i have heard if the car is tunable. its going to take years to crack the m4s software. then make a good tune. this is a higher end BMW model. with limited about of people making soft ware for them. the market is a lot smaller than the Japanese or American muscle. its going to take some time.

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

One point.....


....people were able to eclipse the 500 HP mark in E46 M3's, so I don't think engine size is the factor (..especially when you consider that there are high horsepower 3.0 liter N54 cars running around). The limiting factor is the software.

Haven't heard of N54 engines getting up past 500hp. Regardless of whether or not that is the case, I have to believe that at some point, engine displacement restricts how much hp you can achieve. I'm sure there is a more technical explanation, but I'm not an expert on that matter. Also, I really wasn't considering a meth upgrade, but I'm sure that factors in.