Carsten Pries of BMW M: the M3/M4 S55 engine is an animal with shocking capabilities

[/// M sa]

I drove the M5 a few times (my brother owns one) and the car felt great, the interior is way above the quality of my GTR (heck my e90's interior is better than the interior of my GTR). The GTR is being replaced with the new M3, I almost pulled the trigger on the M5. The M5 being a crappy car talk is just non sense, every car maker puts out a few lemons it doesnt make it a bad car or car maker.

[aus]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Funny, I have always seen the M3 as the "top" ///M model. Not from a price perspective but from a "motorsprt" perspective. With the M5 being a luxo bahn stormer and the M3 being a multi purpose car with very good track abilities. I guess it is a question of perspective; since I prefer the M3 niche, I might be biased . Anyway, to me, they are different cars that fill different needs.

I agree completely with you, but in the general public, people always tend to think of the M5 as the top dog. The one you dream about owning. I could get one, but it's just not for me.

.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Are you sure the Panamera Turbo "schools everything BMW" on a track???


As far as I can tell, the M6 GC beats the Panamera Turbo by over 1,5s around this track...

It's strange that the M6GC gets praised, while the M5 gets panned. I'm thinking the M5 Comp is just the M6GC bushings or what ever differences they did to the GC to make it drive better.

.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by aus

I agree completely with you, but in the general public, people always tend to think of the M5 as the top dog. The one you dream about owning. I could get one, but it's just not for me.

.

Despite the added performance and technological benefits, I'd much rather have a pristine or brand new E60 ///M5 over the F10. I think, "Sexy!!!" when I see the E60. I don't feel the same way about the F10, but I do recognize that it is a beast of a car.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by aus

I agree completely with you, but in the general public, people always tend to think of the M5 as the top dog. The one you dream about owning. I could get one, but it's just not for me.

.

Hmmm, an interesting perspective. The general public doesn't seem to have that sentiment where I'm from, but I always enjoy hearing about car perspectives from different areas (e.g., some people on this forum from Los Angeles say M3s are extremely common, whereas in my area I see plenty of 911s but I'm lucky to ever see another M3).

I've personally never put the two cars in the same category--the M3 has been "top dog" for the small (relative, especially as the years have passed) sporty--with some luxury--coupe, and the M5 has been "top dog" for the full-sized luxury--with power and good handling--sedan.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Hmmm, an interesting perspective. The general public doesn't seem to have that sentiment where I'm from, but I always enjoy hearing about car perspectives from different areas (e.g., some people on this forum from Los Angeles say M3s are extremely common, whereas in my area I see plenty of 911s but I'm lucky to ever see another M3).

I've personally never put the two cars in the same category--the M3 has been "top dog" for the small (relative, especially as the years have passed) sporty--with some luxury--coupe, and the M5 has been "top dog" for the full-sized luxury--with power and good handling--sedan.

We definitely do. To be honest, most cars are common here in California. You don't really get to scream, "My car is exclusive!" unless you have something really, really special. And don't go to a Cars & Coffee here........it's a car nut's wet dream.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

We definitely do. To be honest, most cars are common here in California. You don't really get to scream, "My car is exclusive!" unless you have something really, really special. And don't go to a Cars & Coffee here........it's a car nut's wet dream.

I'm not too caught up with exclusivity personally, so seeing nice cars on every drive sounds like heaven. Combined with the weather, I wouldn't mind moving there someday.

I just moved to the Seattle area, but so far the daily drive car scene has been a little disappointing. Nearly every other car is a Subaru Outback (a good car I'm sure, but not terribly exciting). On the bright side, I have three tracks within an hour from my house.

EDIT: ...and wow, the conversation here has really drifted off topic, haha.

[Koldun]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

I'm betting the new M3/M4 will be plenty of fun out of the box though (especially if they end up being significantly underrated), and the money draw of M3/M4 tuning will hopefully get us a crack in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm not sure where this "underrated" pipe-dream is coming from.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Koldun

I'm not sure where this "underrated" pipe-dream is coming from.

Pipe dream? A good percentage of BMW's turbocharged cars are underrated (..well, at least the ones that matter). Hell, it's no secret. Where have you been? In fact, this phenomenon of underrating turbocharged engines goes as far back as I can remember (..Supras, 300ZX's, Cosworth Escorts, etc.).

[elitex]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Pipe dream? The a good percentage of BMW's turbocharged cars are underrated (..well, at least the ones that matter). Hell, it's no secret. Where have you been?

LOL Under a rock. "Pipe dream" hahaha

[Tonymiabmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

We definitely do. To be honest, most cars are common here in California. You don't really get to scream, "My car is exclusive!" unless you have something really, really special. And don't go to a Cars & Coffee here........it's a car nut's wet dream.

Same here in Miami gotta be something really special. Like the chrome blue Ferrari 458 that drives around. Ugly but the guy must really have been ignored as a child lol

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

Same here in Miami gotta be something really special. Like the chrome blue Ferrari 458 that drives around. Ugly but the guy must really have been ignored as a child lol

Any pics of that thing? LOL!

[Koldun]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Pipe dream? A good percentage of BMW's turbocharged cars are underrated (..well, at least the ones that matter). Hell, it's no secret. Where have you been? In fact, this phenomenon of underrating turbocharged engines goes as far back as I can remember (..Supras, 300ZX's, Cosworth Escorts, etc.).

Once those turbos get some heat in 'em, the cars dyno very close to official numbers. Those peaky numbers are something only 0-60 fast'n'furious drivers care about or put any real stock in.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Koldun

Once those turbos get some heat in 'em, the cars dyno very close to official numbers. Those peaky numbers are something only 0-60 fast'n'furious drivers care about or put any real stock in.

And drivers on the Autobahn... Not only the 0-60 crowd...

Several tests of F1x M5/6 have commented in comparison tests that the way the M5/6 pulls at higher speeds is well beyond what a 560hp car should manage. Especially since they compare it with other 560/585hp cars...

[///1M]

How should the term "shocking capabilities" be interpreted?

Shocking because of the already-listed HP & torque numbers?

Or, because the power delivery exceeds expectations somehow?

[RealStig]

I finally drove an M5 a few times now and I can say that it's an amazing car from an interior perspective. It's just unreal. If the new M3 can be 30% of the M5 from an interior perspective, it'll be an amazing car. There is just so much difference between a 335i (F30) and an M5 right now. I know M3 is closing that gap, but how much is the question.

From a performance perspective the story is different. The car has torque at all levels. No turbo lag at all (I'm not sure this is because it was a 575 hp monster or the improved turbos). You touch the throttle slightly at 1200 rpm, and you get the power under your foot right there. Amazing feeling. That being said, when you WOT, it really does not feel so fast. Or in other words, it doesn't sound "as scary" as my M3. In my M3, when I go WOT from 20 mph to 90 mph, you get this sheer adrenalin being pumped into your veins. M3 is a lot less forgiving car. You have to be very careful. The road noise, steering feedback, it's a lot more raw, direct. M5 is what it should be, it's executive. It absorbs the road noise so well. The steering feedback is there, but it's a lot more forgiving. The torque though, believe it or not, it just does not feel like 500+ lb/ft, it doesn't. And I don't know if it's because the torque starts at 1200 rpm or not vs it builds gradually in the M3 (S65), the M3 punches you back more to your seat. With M5, you are like "meh, I'm doing 90 mph", with M3, it's more like "holy crap, I'm doing 90 mph", it's hard to explain. Naturally aspirated engines are a bit more rewarding and turbo is a lot easier to get it up there at fast levels. I'm not sure if I did a good job explaining, I drove my M3 and the M5, back to back, exactly 4 times and this is my feedback.

Oh and the active sound in M5 actually sounds pretty good. It's done very elegantly, you don't really feel it. I quite liked it.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I finally drove an M5 a few times now and I can say that it's an amazing car from an interior perspective. It's just unreal. If the new M3 can be 30% of the M5 from an interior perspective, it'll be an amazing car. There is just so much difference between a 335i (F30) and an M5 right now. I know M3 is closing that gap, but how much is the question.

From a performance perspective the story is different. The car has torque at all levels. No turbo lag at all (I'm not sure this is because it was a 575 hp monster or the improved turbos). You touch the throttle slightly at 1200 rpm, and you get the power under your foot right there. Amazing feeling. That being said, when you WOT, it really does not feel so fast. Or in other words, it doesn't sound "as scary" as my M3. In my M3, when I go WOT from 20 mph to 90 mph, you get this sheer adrenalin being pumped into your veins. M3 is a lot less forgiving car. You have to be very careful. The road noise, steering feedback, it's a lot more raw, direct. M5 is what it should be, it's executive. It absorbs the road noise so well. The steering feedback is there, but it's a lot more forgiving. The torque though, believe it or not, it just does not feel like 500+ lb/ft, it doesn't. And I don't know if it's because the torque starts at 1200 rpm or not vs it builds gradually in the M3 (S65), the M3 punches you back more to your seat. With M5, you are like "meh, I'm doing 90 mph", with M3, it's more like "holy crap, I'm doing 90 mph", it's hard to explain. Naturally aspirated engines are a bit more rewarding and turbo is a lot easier to get it up there at fast levels. I'm not sure if I did a good job explaining, I drove my M3 and the M5, back to back, exactly 4 times and this is my feedback.

Oh and the active sound in M5 actually sounds pretty good. It's done very elegantly, you don't really feel it. I quite liked it.

I find this intesting as I have never driven the M5 however I have to disagree about the M3 - I have had 2 E9x M3s and regularly drove them to the limiter for prolonged periods on the autobahn and I must say they are very easy cars to drive quickly, extremely planted and predicatable - 100 mph feels like a cruise for the car. Of course everyone has different views but this is mine. I never felt like I had to be careful in the M3, i found it very confidence inspiring actually.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by ss134

I find this intesting as I have never driven the M5 however I have to disagree about the M3 - I have had 2 E9x M3s and regularly drove them to the limiter for prolonged periods on the autobahn and I must say they are very easy cars to drive quickly, extremely planted and predicatable - 100 mph feels like a cruise for the car. Of course everyone has different views but this is mine. I never felt like I had to be careful in the M3, i found it very confidence inspiring actually.

Then take this as a "comparative speaking" argument After you drive the M5, your view changes. Once I was back in my M3 after driving the M5, I realized how flaky it was, again comparatively.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I finally drove an M5 a few times now and I can say that it's an amazing car from an interior perspective. It's just unreal. If the new M3 can be 30% of the M5 from an interior perspective, it'll be an amazing car. There is just so much difference between a 335i (F30) and an M5 right now. I know M3 is closing that gap, but how much is the question.

From a performance perspective the story is different. The car has torque at all levels. No turbo lag at all (I'm not sure this is because it was a 575 hp monster or the improved turbos). You touch the throttle slightly at 1200 rpm, and you get the power under your foot right there. Amazing feeling. That being said, when you WOT, it really does not feel so fast. Or in other words, it doesn't sound "as scary" as my M3. In my M3, when I go WOT from 20 mph to 90 mph, you get this sheer adrenalin being pumped into your veins. M3 is a lot less forgiving car. You have to be very careful. The road noise, steering feedback, it's a lot more raw, direct. M5 is what it should be, it's executive. It absorbs the road noise so well. The steering feedback is there, but it's a lot more forgiving. The torque though, believe it or not, it just does not feel like 500+ lb/ft, it doesn't. And I don't know if it's because the torque starts at 1200 rpm or not vs it builds gradually in the M3 (S65), the M3 punches you back more to your seat. With M5, you are like "meh, I'm doing 90 mph", with M3, it's more like "holy crap, I'm doing 90 mph", it's hard to explain. Naturally aspirated engines are a bit more rewarding and turbo is a lot easier to get it up there at fast levels. I'm not sure if I did a good job explaining, I drove my M3 and the M5, back to back, exactly 4 times and this is my feedback.

Oh and the active sound in M5 actually sounds pretty good. It's done very elegantly, you don't really feel it. I quite liked it.

I believe it.

There's a certain amount of dramatic tension in the waiting. A naturally aspirated engine that revs to over 8,000 RPM provides some unique sensory feedback. Once you pass the 6,500 RPM mark, you're in to territory that few people experience on a regular basis. The sound of an S65 as it approaches its 8400 RPM redline contributes to the excitement of driving the car.

With engines like the S63tu, or any other production turbocharged engine for that matter, the drama occurs quickly. Have a look at the difference in the dyno plot between a turbocharged engine and a high-revving naturally aspirated engine. The turbocharged car usually has a torque swell early in the RPM range, which tapers off as you reach the upper RPM range. A naturally aspirated engine like the S65 has a torque curve that is flat as a pancake throughout the RPM range and extends that flatness much higher.

When you experience maximum acceleration in an M3, you anticipate the next shift, but you have to wait, and wait, and wait for the redline to show up. In a turbocharged car like the M5, the torque swells early, then tapers off as you reach higher RPM. I've developed an appreciation for both experiences, but I've definitely noticed that some people are more attached to one or the other. Some people are hooked the first time they experience the early torque delivery of a turbo, while others really like the drama of a high revving engine.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I finally drove an M5 a few times now and I can say that it's an amazing car from an interior perspective. It's just unreal. If the new M3 can be 30% of the M5 from an interior perspective, it'll be an amazing car. There is just so much difference between a 335i (F30) and an M5 right now. I know M3 is closing that gap, but how much is the question.

It closes the gap a LOT. An F80 M3 is nicer than even a base F10. I owned an F10 with Nappa, and I loved it. The F10 M5 with Merino is even nicer, as the seats are much better. And of course, the full Merino with the leather dash is just OTT.

If you get an F80 M3 with the (likely relatively cheap according to the Canadian price guide) full leather, it will be a very nice place to be. Not M5, and I won't say "not far off", but it's a far cry from the base F30 3 series. The seats alone are a huge upgrade. The Merino blows away the Dakota. The gauges are much, much nicer. The DCT shifter elevates the center console. The CF trim is really sharp. Etc.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

It closes the gap a LOT. An F80 M3 is nicer than even a base F10. I owned an F10 with Nappa, and I loved it. The F10 M5 with Merino is even nicer, as the seats are much better. And of course, the full Merino with the leather dash is just OTT.

If you get an F80 M3 with the (likely relatively cheap according to the Canadian price guide) full leather, it will be a very nice place to be. Not M5, and I won't say "not far off", but it's a far cry from the base F30 3 series. The seats alone are a huge upgrade. The Merino blows away the Dakota. The gauges are much, much nicer. The DCT shifter elevates the center console. The CF trim is really sharp. Etc.

Okay you have really gotten me drooling now, I'm very excited

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I finally drove an M5 a few times now and I can say that it's an amazing car from an interior perspective. It's just unreal. If the new M3 can be 30% of the M5 from an interior perspective, it'll be an amazing car. There is just so much difference between a 335i (F30) and an M5 right now. I know M3 is closing that gap, but how much is the question.

From a performance perspective the story is different. The car has torque at all levels. No turbo lag at all (I'm not sure this is because it was a 575 hp monster or the improved turbos). You touch the throttle slightly at 1200 rpm, and you get the power under your foot right there. Amazing feeling. That being said, when you WOT, it really does not feel so fast. Or in other words, it doesn't sound "as scary" as my M3. In my M3, when I go WOT from 20 mph to 90 mph, you get this sheer adrenalin being pumped into your veins. M3 is a lot less forgiving car. You have to be very careful. The road noise, steering feedback, it's a lot more raw, direct. M5 is what it should be, it's executive. It absorbs the road noise so well. The steering feedback is there, but it's a lot more forgiving. The torque though, believe it or not, it just does not feel like 500+ lb/ft, it doesn't. And I don't know if it's because the torque starts at 1200 rpm or not vs it builds gradually in the M3 (S65), the M3 punches you back more to your seat. With M5, you are like "meh, I'm doing 90 mph", with M3, it's more like "holy crap, I'm doing 90 mph", it's hard to explain. Naturally aspirated engines are a bit more rewarding and turbo is a lot easier to get it up there at fast levels. I'm not sure if I did a good job explaining, I drove my M3 and the M5, back to back, exactly 4 times and this is my feedback.

Oh and the active sound in M5 actually sounds pretty good. It's done very elegantly, you don't really feel it. I quite liked it.

Very interesting comparison

One of the "issues" with the F10 gen 5-series is that you are slightly detached from the driving experience, both compared with the E60, but not least compared with a 3-series. I suppose (hope) that the F8x M's will have a more raw, visceral drivers experience than the F10 M5 has (even though my drives in the F1x gen M5/6 have been enjoyable, especially the Manhart MH5 S with 700+ hp on the Autobahn )

This is how the F1 drivers comment on the power delivery characteristics of their new Turbo V6 engines:

ENGINE/POWER:
On their own the 1.6-litre turbos produce a little over 600bhp, with the ERS adding as much as 160bhp to that. The overall power is thus similar to the old V8s, but it is the increased torque that is the big change.

It's something McLaren's Jenson Button likes. "I enjoy driving this car," he says. "The power of the engine is nice. It's very torquey.

"It feels the most powerful engine I've driven. It obviously isn't in terms of outright power, but as a racing driver you feel the torque and power at slow speed. It's coming out of the corners when you have so much torque that's exciting."

Williams's Valtteri Bottas agrees: "I really enjoy this, it's good fun. The power feels nice, so no complaints.

"You can really feel the difference and have to modify your driving style a little bit. I also think setting up the car might be a little bit different."

Esteban Gutierrez likened his Sauber to a GP3 car, but still feels the new cars are good to drive. "It's more enjoyable," he says.

"The whole concept of the feeling is a little like the GP3 car I would say - the way the turbo and the torque come in. It is a very different scale because you have a lot more power and the ERS.

"We have more power and I'm enjoying the way it feels. You also have a greater range with the gears, and you can shift early and still get the power."

Sauber team-mate Adrian Sutil adds: "It's not about using all the rev band anymore. The V8 was operating between 15 and 18,000rpm, so you always had to keep the revs up.