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      08-22-2013, 09:56 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotsoup View Post
I'm not in either the DCT or the manual camp, but I just have a couple questions with regard to the DCT, after having test-driven an M3 w/ DCT:

1) When I'm driving around in 2nd or 3rd gear and I want to coast to a red light, what I would normally do in a manual is shift to neutral and coast. With DCT, do I have to upshift until I stop feeling the engine braking? I ask this because the ride was super-harsh for me (esp. not being used to DCT) on low gear driving around the city.
You can put the car in neutral just like the MT if you want. Simply push the stick to the neutral position and hold it there for a moment. I would not drive this way though whether with an MT or DCT. I would typically shift down through the gears and, with the MT, go to neutral just before coming to a stop or, with the DCT, just let the electronics hold the clutches open. With the DCT you can also just let the transmission downshift for you (I don't do that though), it will automatically change gears to prevent under-rev which would lead to a stall.

Quote:
2) On a DCT, if you downshift near the redline (say, redlining at 4 and then accidentally downshifting), what happens?
It ignores your input and keeps the transmission in the current gear.
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      08-22-2013, 10:21 PM   #178
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I have my first DCT but I can honestly say that the only two reasons I choose it are:
A: Convinience in traffic.
B: Resale.

However I've come to appreciate it more than I thought. It feels natural to shift with the shifter or the paddles unlike any slushbox that to me feels totally meaningless and unnatural to shift manually. I prefer the shifter, probably due to many, many years of MT driving where I just like the shifter to always be in one place and not move around. And with the S65 you have those glorious throttle blips that I guess is not part of the MT shifting?

Now I'm on the fence but if it wasn't my daily driver or I didn't have traffic to deal with an MT would be a no brainer. I do pine for that MT experience again though and I smile and nod in agreement for every MT argument that is in this thread. Well not the coast in neutral thing because I never do that. Engage the clutch and "freewheel" to regain grip, yes. But I never coast in neutral.

Last edited by solstice; 08-22-2013 at 10:30 PM..
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      08-23-2013, 03:30 AM   #179
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After driving a MT for ten years, then driving a DCT for a few, then back to MT. I really don't see myself driving a MT ever again. A DCT is engaging enough for me and the clutch pedal has become more of a chore than a delight. I like having the option of manually shifting gears or having them shifted for me. Even though I'm manually shifting the majority of the time, the OPTION is a heaven-sent.

It's a shame there may not be an option for the M3/M4 but the debate on which is more exciting to drive is inherently pointless because it's just personal preference.

Last edited by dtn; 08-23-2013 at 03:40 AM..
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      08-23-2013, 07:16 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtn View Post
It's a shame there may not be an option for the M3/M4 ...
To remind everyone of what's been said earlier in this thread - MT will be available for the F8x.
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      08-23-2013, 07:51 AM   #181
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The only problem with MTs going forward is that manufacturers are no long investing time and effort into making them good. The MT in the E92 is "ok" and I hear the 991 MT is not the greatest. The Cayman on the other hand is pretty awesome.

I think in the future I'll find myself keep myself buying older sports cars for fun.
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      08-23-2013, 10:07 AM   #182
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Here's the thing. Everyone making the argument for DCT has good points. Swamp2 made a good case for it. The reasoning however keeps going down its better on an autocross, track etc. Yes, when driving all out at 90%+ DCT can be pretty engaging. Add in left foot braking and it a pretty cool experience.

But to be honest, most people here track the car maybe once or twice a year and as a street car driving at 50% street legal speeds manual is just more fun because your mind isn't occupied with trying to stay alive.

Getting DCT for a superior experience once or twice a year doesn't make sense to me.

For a street car it's got to be manual.

Btw. I'm an auto/DCT to manual convert. Drove auto car for the first part of my life and then switched over. My first sports car was a e46 SMG. Tracked the crap out of it and perfected left foot braking. Installed the Gustav Pedal. Left foot braking became second nature. When I'm in an auto car even on the street using my left foot to brake became natural.

Test drive a e92 M3 DCT and for regular driving it was so boring. Drove one on the track and it felt way better.

Ask yourself, how many times are you really planning on driving it all out. If it's your only car and you'll be going to work, getting Starbucks and picking up the kids with it, DCT I think will bore you to death. At least it did on e92. But e92 overall didn't feel awesome unless you drove it at 8/10ths.
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      08-23-2013, 10:09 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I have my first DCT but I can honestly say that the only two reasons I choose it are:
A: Convinience in traffic.
B: Resale.

However I've come to appreciate it more than I thought. It feels natural to shift with the shifter or the paddles unlike any slushbox that to me feels totally meaningless and unnatural to shift manually. I prefer the shifter, probably due to many, many years of MT driving where I just like the shifter to always be in one place and not move around. And with the S65 you have those glorious throttle blips that I guess is not part of the MT shifting?

Now I'm on the fence but if it wasn't my daily driver or I didn't have traffic to deal with an MT would be a no brainer. I do pine for that MT experience again though and I smile and nod in agreement for every MT argument that is in this thread. Well not the coast in neutral thing because I never do that. Engage the clutch and "freewheel" to regain grip, yes. But I never coast in neutral.
Agreed on the 2 points. Just buying a car for resale is a crappy reason to by a car. It's buying something with 1 foot out the door.
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      08-23-2013, 10:32 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeldorian View Post
Here's the thing. Everyone making the argument for DCT has good points. Swamp2 made a good case for it. The reasoning however keeps going down its better on an autocross, track etc. Yes, when driving all out at 90%+ DCT can be pretty engaging. Add in left foot braking and it a pretty cool experience.

But to be honest, most people here track the car maybe once or twice a year and as a street car driving at 50% street legal speeds manual is just more fun because your mind isn't occupied with trying to stay alive.

Getting DCT for a superior experience once or twice a year doesn't make sense to me.

For a street car it's got to be manual.

Btw. I'm an auto/DCT to manual convert. Drove auto car for the first part of my life and then switched over. My first sports car was a e46 SMG. Tracked the crap out of it and perfected left foot braking. Installed the Gustav Pedal. Left foot braking became second nature. When I'm in an auto car even on the street using my left foot to brake became natural.

Test drive a e92 M3 DCT and for regular driving it was so boring. Drove one on the track and it felt way better.

Ask yourself, how many times are you really planning on driving it all out. If it's your only car and you'll be going to work, getting Starbucks and picking up the kids with it, DCT I think will bore you to death. At least it did on e92. But e92 overall didn't feel awesome unless you drove it at 8/10ths.




+1

Driven an E92 M3 6MT for 3 years, it was a brilliant car, but boring daily driver, big and heavy, and a gas gussler (did I spell that all right)

Anyway; the car came only alive over 6K RPM, and for that sake it really doesn`t matter if you drive an 6 MT or the M-DCT. Over 6 K RPM isn`t what you can often do in daily driving, so most of the time boring indeed.
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      08-23-2013, 10:33 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Funny how the automotive rags still call the DCT an "auto". Sometimes perception = reality.
Yes, exactly While the DCT is technically an automated manual and is completely different from a traditional torque converter automatic transmission, it can still shift its gears automatically if you want it to. The fact it can shift gears without any input from the driver makes it an automatic transmission regardless of the technology behind it.
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      08-23-2013, 10:38 AM   #186
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It is already known that the next generation of 5 series cars will lose the stick. That is probably true for the next 3/4 generation.
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      08-23-2013, 11:24 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Yes, exactly While the DCT is technically an automated manual and is completely different from a traditional torque converter automatic transmission, it can still shift its gears automatically if you want it to. The fact it can shift gears without any input from the driver makes it an automatic transmission regardless of the technology behind it.
I think it should be considered an automatic, especially when I am filtering through internet car ads looking for a manual.
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      08-23-2013, 12:18 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
I think it should be considered an automatic, especially when I am filtering through internet car ads looking for a manual.
I feel that pain. Years ago I was looking at buying a used E46 M3 and when specifically searching for a manual, many SMG cars would come up in the listing.
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      08-23-2013, 12:25 PM   #189
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Watching this video I can't say I agree with that all manufacturers have stopped investing in manuals. Here we have a new manual with 7 gears and throttle blips / rev matching. It makes me itch to have a go in it by the shifting alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=EhaPgRaR7Ew
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      08-23-2013, 04:11 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice
Watching this video I can't say I agree with that all manufacturers have stopped investing in manuals. Here we have a new manual with 7 gears and throttle blips / rev matching. It makes me itch to have a go in it by the shifting alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=EhaPgRaR7Ew
German accent in this vid is totally LOL :-D
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      08-23-2013, 04:53 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtn View Post
After driving a MT for ten years, then driving a DCT for a few, then back to MT. I really don't see myself driving a MT ever again. A DCT is engaging enough for me and the clutch pedal has become more of a chore than a delight. I like having the option of manually shifting gears or having them shifted for me. Even though I'm manually shifting the majority of the time, the OPTION is a heaven-sent.

It's a shame there may not be an option for the M3/M4 but the debate on which is more exciting to drive is inherently pointless because it's just personal preference.
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      08-23-2013, 08:55 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeldorian View Post
Test drive a e92 M3 DCT and for regular driving it was so boring. Drove one on the track and it felt way better.

Ask yourself, how many times are you really planning on driving it all out. If it's your only car and you'll be going to work, getting Starbucks and picking up the kids with it, DCT I think will bore you to death. At least it did on e92. But e92 overall didn't feel awesome unless you drove it at 8/10ths.
See, it all goes back to personal preference. It's actually the total opposite for me for daily versus aggressive driving.

But maybe because my daily driving is very aggressive
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      08-23-2013, 09:19 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
German accent in this vid is totally LOL :-D
I knew without looking at the vid that you were watching a Getawayer review. That guy is great. Don't let his accent get in the way.
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      08-24-2013, 03:01 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
You miss read my statement. I DON'T have to look in a MT. You do have to look with a DCT.

Seriously, to say that the DCT can do almost what a MT can do in terms of skipping gears and burnouts is such a wannabe statement. And I do like to pop it in neutral when I'm coasting for 1/4 mile. Why waste gas?
Why on earth would you want to coast in neutral??? That doesn't save gas, quite the contrary... When coasting in gear the fuel is shut off (injectors are closed and no fuel injected). Why? Because the drive from the wheels via the transmission is driving the engine. So it does not need fuel to run!

If you put it in neutral you loose the drive from the wheels and the engine needs fuel to run! Coasting in neutral burns gas, coasting in gear saves gas!
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      08-24-2013, 04:19 AM   #195
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I've been looking a little on the statistics of the E9X M3 sales.

Name:  M3 transmitions.PNG
Views: 832
Size:  70.9 KB

E90
In the US 53/47 MT/DCT
In the rest of the world its 31/69

E92
In the US 40/60 MT/DCT
In the rest of the world its 35/65

E93
In the US 49/51 MT/DCT
In the rest of the world its 12/88

MT only E90/E90LCI
91->29 for US
71->11 for Row

MT only E92/E92LCI
49->31 for US
56->6 for Row

In the world outside US/Canada, sales on MT E92s have dropped from 56% to 6% compared to DCT. It is highly likely that the M4 wont be sold as MT there because it is probably even going to be less than 6% and I think that is too low to give the option.

In the US it is 31% for E92 LCI so it is safe to say that M4 will be offered with MT.
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      08-24-2013, 07:11 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sward View Post
In the world outside US/Canada, sales on MT E92s have dropped from 56% to 6% compared to DCT.
Where do you read/see that in the table ?

EDIT: found it ; 5.8%
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      08-24-2013, 07:53 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sward View Post
In the world outside US/Canada, sales on MT E92s have dropped from 56% to 6% compared to DCT. It is highly likely that the M4 wont be sold as MT there because it is probably even going to be less than 6% and I think that is too low to give the option.

In the US it is 31% for E92 LCI so it is safe to say that M4 will be offered with MT.
As mentioned before, BMW have been testing ROW spec M4 prototypes with manual transmission and they wouldn't (have to) do this if they weren't to offer MT outside the US. Thus, I'm fairly sure that manual transmission will be available in (virtually) all markets.


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      08-24-2013, 08:17 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeldorian View Post
Here's the thing. Everyone making the argument for DCT has good points. Swamp2 made a good case for it. The reasoning however keeps going down its better on an autocross, track etc. Yes, when driving all out at 90%+ DCT can be pretty engaging. Add in left foot braking and it a pretty cool experience.

But to be honest, most people here track the car maybe once or twice a year and as a street car driving at 50% street legal speeds manual is just more fun because your mind isn't occupied with trying to stay alive.

Getting DCT for a superior experience once or twice a year doesn't make sense to me.

For a street car it's got to be manual.

Btw. I'm an auto/DCT to manual convert. Drove auto car for the first part of my life and then switched over. My first sports car was a e46 SMG. Tracked the crap out of it and perfected left foot braking. Installed the Gustav Pedal. Left foot braking became second nature. When I'm in an auto car even on the street using my left foot to brake became natural.

Test drive a e92 M3 DCT and for regular driving it was so boring. Drove one on the track and it felt way better.

Ask yourself, how many times are you really planning on driving it all out. If it's your only car and you'll be going to work, getting Starbucks and picking up the kids with it, DCT I think will bore you to death. At least it did on e92. But e92 overall didn't feel awesome unless you drove it at 8/10ths.
I still disagree. The great thing about M-DCT is how well it masters a variety of driving styles/intensities. Use D1 for starting in 2nd gear on slick/wet/icy conditions and for the ultimate in smooth shifts. Use S4-S6 for hard power shifting MT-esque harshness. Choose any of the automatic or manual modes in between for an in between feel/performance. Of course the reason it is a jack of all trades is software. Exactly the same component that makes modern engines so good.
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