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      10-09-2020, 05:16 PM   #1
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Obligatory Comparison: M4 GTS vs. 718 GT4

I think a few folks in the past have cross-shopped these cars and with the 718, the performance is on par with the GTS now.

Thoughts on the two cars from daily driving, track driving and overall value perspective?

I know the GTS will hold it current value for a long time, the GT4 will depreciate over the next few years from new. Both great cars, but not sure if its worth it moving over to the new GT4.

What prompted me to look is that my warranty is expiring at the end of the year and I was just going to extend it to the 7-yr from BMW.
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      10-09-2020, 05:36 PM   #2
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If I only needed 2 seats I would’ve gotten a Porsche Spyder/GT4, 911, AMG GT, C8, R8, or Viper. I would take all of those plus others I’m leaving off the list over any M4. That said I have twin 14 year olds that love my cars and I made sure I bought something we can all drive in together. Under my circumstances I love the M4.
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      10-09-2020, 07:43 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bioman View Post
I think a few folks in the past have cross-shopped these cars and with the 718, the performance is on par with the GTS now.

Thoughts on the two cars from daily driving, track driving and overall value perspective?

I know the GTS will hold it current value for a long time, the GT4 will depreciate over the next few years from new. Both great cars, but not sure if its worth it moving over to the new GT4.

What prompted me to look is that my warranty is expiring at the end of the year and I was just going to extend it to the 7-yr from BMW.
I am a new GTS owner. Was on the list to order 2021 Spyder then my GTS popped up locally for 78 and change 5K miles never tracked and still under warranty (I just extended to 84 month 75k miles with BMW wasn't cheap but I can always recoup if I change my mind) and once factory BMW warranty expires you can't easily extend. And put new Sport Cup 2 on, previous owner put on Super Sport after picking up a nail in the original Cup 2 set.

I have a track day scheduled at Circuit of the Americas for 13 December (my first ever)

The way I wanted to spec the Spyder would have been well over 100k even with steel brakes (which are better for hard track use any way)

I believe the Spyder / GT4 is a superior car but much more expensive (now).

Seems GTS prices are slowly rising, but I bought this to drive weekends and occasionally track to see if I get addicted.

It is a very special machine to be sure, I feel fortunate. I think it's the best looking M car as a bonus even with the high wing.

I think I am through buying new cars, my plan is to eventually go to a used GT3RS but that's a while off.

So not exactly what you were asking but I understand your thought process.

Looks as if the GTS has stabilized in price and may even appreciate although I bought this car to drive weekends and occasional track day, not as an investment.
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      10-09-2020, 11:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bioman View Post
I think a few folks in the past have cross-shopped these cars and with the 718, the performance is on par with the GTS now.

Thoughts on the two cars from daily driving, track driving and overall value perspective?

I know the GTS will hold it current value for a long time, the GT4 will depreciate over the next few years from new. Both great cars, but not sure if its worth it moving over to the new GT4.

What prompted me to look is that my warranty is expiring at the end of the year and I was just going to extend it to the 7-yr from BMW.
Are these really comparable cars? A properly spec'd 718 GT4 is ~$115-120K. That's significantly more than even a garage queen M4 GTS commands ($80-90k).

I think the M4 GTS competes with the original Cayman GT4 more than a new Porsche.

It's hard to say exactly what used prices will do for the 718 GT4. The original GT4 had a base MSRP of $85.5k - many of those cars (with good options of course) are still priced higher than that. If production stays low due to Covid-19, I don't see a used GT4 going below $95-100k for quite a long time. Particularly if the replacement in 2023-2024 is any one of the following: no manual available, turbocharged, hybrid.

If you can swing a 718 GT4, why not go for it? You'll have a high performing track/road car with minimal depreciation and a nice 4 year warranty. I think the GT4 is at least as practical as a daily driver, probably a bit better ride quality. On track, performance should be a wash as well. Just depends on which brand ethos speaks to you more (and the extra $ you need to shell out for a 718 GT4 after selling your GTS).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnut12 View Post
If I only needed 2 seats I would’ve gotten a Porsche Spyder/GT4, 911, AMG GT, C8, R8, or Viper. I would take all of those plus others I’m leaving off the list over any M4. That said I have twin 14 year olds that love my cars and I made sure I bought something we can all drive in together. Under my circumstances I love the M4.
But the M4 GTS doesn't have rear seats, so that argument is moot. The 718 has a frunk and large rear hatch area that, combined, have at least as much cargo volume as the M4 GTS. And the 718 has a lot more in-cabin storage space and creature comforts, which is one of the weakest points of the GTS.

Last edited by 4play; 10-09-2020 at 11:56 PM..
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      10-10-2020, 06:15 AM   #5
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This came into my youtube feed yesterday. Cut & paste Harris's comments from 3:10 about M2 CS vs GT4 to GTS vs GT4.

What kind of driving experience do you want? They aren't close to the same. And for now it's a 6MT vs DCT question as well.



On current values, warranty aside, you're 110k+ for a GT4 with buckets. Somewhere upper 70's to 90k for a good example GTS, but if regular track, some mods are required. GT4 is ready to go from the factory for the majority of drivers.

Do you enjoy tinkering? Wheels on and off, adjusting 3 ways. GTS isn't given enough credit for that.

Never driven a GT4 of any gen, but have many sessions nose to tail with the 981 in my modded E90. Pretty sweet car, but never came around to "needing" one.

Early days, but sensing a bit of a lukewarm reception from Porschephiles on the 718 GT4. Might be much better value a couple of years from now and CPO.
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      10-10-2020, 01:57 PM   #6
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There are a few 981 and 718 GT4s in Colorado, and I've had the pleasure to chase a few down. I've not driven enough laps in a GT4(~4 laps ) to comment on it well. For me the 981 GT4 wasn't special enough over a M4 GTS to warrant the $15k price difference, and the 718 GT4 didn't change enough to warrant the ~$20k price difference over a 981.

I'm really in love with the GT3's engine. A GT4 with the GT3's engine + the upcoming PDK would be a slam dunk IMO. A real special experience on track. If I were looking for a track-only car in the $80k-$90k range, and I was debating between a M4 GTS and a 918 GT4, I'd still choose the M4. If my budget was higher, that of a new 718 GT4, I'd stretch a little just buy a used 991.1/2 GT3.
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      10-10-2020, 03:27 PM   #7
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The GTS seemed to be targeted at the GT3, not the GT4, but looking at all these cars :

In 2016, $132k for the GTS vs $130-150k for the GT3 was a win for the GT3 in the opinion of most, including my own.
In 2016, $132k for the GTS vs $90-100k for the 981 GT4 was laughably in favor of the GT4, if you prefer the GT4 as i do.

Today, $75-80k for a GTS vs $100k+ for a 2015-16 GT3, $150k+ for a 2018+ GT3, and $110-20k for a 718 GT4 becomes a huge bang for the buck proposition the other way, in favor of the BMW. The 981 GT4 is still in the ballpark of GTS prices, but then it becomes a decision on the merits of the car, not the price differences.
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      10-10-2020, 03:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
I think the M4 GTS competes with the original Cayman GT4 more than a new Porsche.
Agreed, price wise definitely. And the original GT4, while really fun to drive, is slow and small in comparison to a GTS. I didn't even consider one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Early days, but sensing a bit of a lukewarm reception from Porschephiles on the 718 GT4. Might be much better value a couple of years from now and CPO.
You are sensing right, they made too many and can't sell them. 718 GT4s are sitting on lots. It's also not moved the game on much from the original GT4 so it's not a compelling upgrade. Also, the new 718 4.0 really puts a dent in the GT4 proposition.

GT4RS will be cool though, ~500hp in that compact package will be something.
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      10-10-2020, 04:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 786 View Post
GT4RS will be cool though, ~500hp in that compact package will be something.
Believe it when I see it. Hope they fully uncork the platform, no tall gearing or other nonsense, long overdue.
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      10-10-2020, 04:36 PM   #10
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It's coming. PDK only.
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      10-10-2020, 08:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 786 View Post
Agreed, price wise definitely. And the original GT4, while really fun to drive, is slow and small in comparison to a GTS. I didn't even consider one.
Small/light is definitely a benefit for me. The M4 has a ton of extra mass and physical size that it doesn't need, considering the actual useable space of the cabin/trunk and the car's purpose. It's a physically rather large car.

I was looking at 360 Modena, GT4, 996/7 GT3, GT4, GT350R, Evora 400, Exige S240/260, and the GTS, so I was running the full gamut of drivetrain configurations and weights. The GTS (particularly the one I got) seemed to me to be the best value for my intended use (own for a couple of years with minimal depreciation, daily use with some track days and a lot of mountain drives sprinkled in).

I think you'd need a 981 GT4 with full bolt-ons and the Sharkwerks gearset to really compare against the GTS. That way you're at ~420hp, closer gearing, 6MT, and 500 (!) pounds lighter.

But, getting a 981 GT4 with all of that done would be close to $100K. Then, you're at 991.1 GT3 money, and that's definitely a superior car. As always with performance cars, it quickly becomes a rather expensive, slippery slope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
The GTS seemed to be targeted at the GT3, not the GT4, but looking at all these cars :

In 2016, $132k for the GTS vs $130-150k for the GT3 was a win for the GT3 in the opinion of most, including my own.
In 2016, $132k for the GTS vs $90-100k for the 981 GT4 was laughably in favor of the GT4, if you prefer the GT4 as i do.

Today, $75-80k for a GTS vs $100k+ for a 2015-16 GT3, $150k+ for a 2018+ GT3, and $110-20k for a 718 GT4 becomes a huge bang for the buck proposition the other way, in favor of the BMW. The 981 GT4 is still in the ballpark of GTS prices, but then it becomes a decision on the merits of the car, not the price differences.
Totally agree. What's really wild is most magazines/shows in 2016 compared the GTS to the 991.1RS and the AMG GTR. I don't necessarily think that was the fairest comparison, but the GTS is at least 90% of those cars from a performance perspective. You can get a GTS for 50% of the price of those cars or even less! It's pretty incredible.
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      10-10-2020, 08:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Believe it when I see it. Hope they fully uncork the platform, no tall gearing or other nonsense, long overdue.
I'm in the same boat. I'll believe it when I see it. People keep telling me the gt4 rs will have 500hp, I think there isn't a snowflake's chance in hell of that happening.
We already have a good idea of GT3 speeds. A 500hp GT4 rs would be faster than the 991.2 gt3 and probably too close to the 992 gt3


The 4 rs will have 450, at the very most. Still, if they give it proper gearing it may provide entertainment
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      10-10-2020, 09:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post

Totally agree. What's really wild is most magazines/shows in 2016 compared the GTS to the 991.1RS and the AMG GTR. I don't necessarily think that was the fairest comparison, but the GTS is at least 90% of those cars from a performance perspective. You can get a GTS for 50% of the price of those cars or even less! It's pretty incredible.
Car mag comparisons are really annoying sometimes. This is not a problem limited to BMWs, you see it all the time.
For example, C&D's GT4 vs C8 Z51 comparison. Why? Why not compare things that cost similar amounts of money?

Car mags seem to like comparing similar mindset cars. So if the M4 GTS is the sportiest BMW they'll put it against the sportiest Porsche.
Why? The 3RS is 200k list and no one can even smell one for that price. Why not compare against a 991 S which costs 130 with a few options?

Are people supposed to be running around saying 'hmm this 70k C8 Z51 is awesome but let's crossshop with a 120k car just to make sure we're making the right decision'. Stupid
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      10-10-2020, 10:39 PM   #14
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Frustratingly, the 718 GT4 is supposed to be geared as tall as the 981. One of the main reasons i won’t trade in my 981 GT4. Mine is already FBO so if i get the upgrade itch i might as well put the (huge amount of) money towards re-gearing and a 4.5l conversion.

Maybe the GT4RS finally fixes it...I’ve never driven a too-tall geared PDK yet
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      10-10-2020, 11:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Car mag comparisons are really annoying sometimes. This is not a problem limited to BMWs, you see it all the time.
For example, C&D's GT4 vs C8 Z51 comparison. Why? Why not compare things that cost similar amounts of money?

Car mags seem to like comparing similar mindset cars. So if the M4 GTS is the sportiest BMW they'll put it against the sportiest Porsche.
Why? The 3RS is 200k list and no one can even smell one for that price. Why not compare against a 991 S which costs 130 with a few options?

Are people supposed to be running around saying 'hmm this 70k C8 Z51 is awesome but let's crossshop with a 120k car just to make sure we're making the right decision'. Stupid
To be fair, at present the C8 Z51 and 718 GT4 are probably pretty close in price. C8 markups are preposterous.

I think the "correct" comparison for the M4 GTS was the 991.1 GT3. They were quite close in base price (obviously the GT3 could be optioned up quite a bit higher), similar HP, Nürburgring time within 2 seconds of each other, etc. Like you said, the RS was ~50% more than the M4 GTS, so of course would be faster/better.

Similarly, the comparable AMG GT was the GT S, not the GT R. ~500hp, ~$140k base price, 7:3x Nürburgring time. It would have been cool if BMW had released the M4 CSL/GTS+/whatever it was going to be called to compete with the AMG GT R and 991RS. There were spy shots and everything, but it never happened. In all of these comparisons, it's also important to remember that the M4 GTS is based on a lowly 4 series chassis, whereas the AMG GT and 911 base chassis are much more competent/capable sports platforms. So it's of course something that always gets mentioned in any sort of automotive media - the M4 GTS feels "less special" or "lacks poise" when compared to the other 2, or words to that effect.
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      10-11-2020, 09:49 AM   #16
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GTS got the supercar comparison treatment more than any other car of its kind that I can recall.

To compound matters, many journalists didn't do it the favor of adjustments to fit the testing circumstances. Street ride height, unadjusted aero and dampers didn't bring the best out of its GT platform. You don't say...

Don't see the "but it's not a 675LT!" critique being applied to European hot hatches. They're appreciated for what they are.

For track purposes, personal preferences make the choice between a GTS and 718 GT4 pretty straightforward, I think.

n/a vs. turbo
6MT vs. dct
stock vs. some mods
on board electronics vs. garage & trackside tuning by hand
easy to drive vs. considerably harder to drive
electronics engaged vs. you're on your own
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      10-12-2020, 09:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
Small/light is definitely a benefit for me. The M4 has a ton of extra mass and physical size that it doesn't need, considering the actual useable space of the cabin/trunk and the car's purpose. It's a physically rather large car.

But, getting a 981 GT4 with all of that done would be close to $100K. Then, you're at 991.1 GT3 money, and that's definitely a superior car. As always with performance cars, it quickly becomes a rather expensive, slippery slope.
Small/light is a benefit for everyone, but personally I needed a street car with a little more space and wanted something more special. My buddy has a GT4 and you can't fit much in it. It's a fun car, I like the gear shift, but it's punishing to drive in Dallas and didn't feel fast to me. Also, we don't have any fun roads here so it's really pointless as a street car unless you track a lot. The motor is boring as well, no fireworks.

I thought about 991.1 GT3 as well but the motor issues put me off. Don't want to deal with the potential of that happening. GTS is good value for what it is.
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      10-12-2020, 10:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 786 View Post
Small/light is a benefit for everyone, but personally I needed a street car with a little more space and wanted something more special. My buddy has a GT4 and you can't fit much in it. It's a fun car, I like the gear shift, but it's punishing to drive in Dallas and didn't feel fast to me. Also, we don't have any fun roads here so it's really pointless as a street car unless you track a lot. The motor is boring as well, no fireworks.

I thought about 991.1 GT3 as well but the motor issues put me off. Don't want to deal with the potential of that happening. GTS is good value for what it is.
I'm in Atlanta, so also a place notorious for bad traffic. My commute (pre-covid) was only about 4 miles each way, so a manual isn't too awful. Plus the GT4 has rev matching to make it even easier. I miss having a manual (GT4 gearing is awful though), Porsche interiors are better than BMW to me especially with sport buckets, and the smaller dimensions and lower weight is a plus.

GTS was cheaper, a bit faster, lower production, more power, more torque and has an actual trunk. Definitely happy with my purchase, but also am tempted by the Porsche GT cars (and will certainly own one at some point). I agree that the GTS is a crazy value right now. You have to think that prices would be 15-20% higher if the reviews had been more positive.

991.1 GT3 warranty is 10 year/120k mile. You can snag a 2015 and have 4.5 years of coverage left. I have Car-ADD, so would never own a car for even close to that amount of time.

Understandable if this is a long-term or forever car though.
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      10-12-2020, 11:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
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I'm in Atlanta, so also a place notorious for bad traffic. My commute (pre-covid) was only about 4 miles each way, so a manual isn't too awful. Plus the GT4 has rev matching to make it even easier. I miss having a manual (GT4 gearing is awful though), Porsche interiors are better than BMW to me especially with sport buckets, and the smaller dimensions and lower weight is a plus.

GTS was cheaper, a bit faster, lower production, more power, more torque and has an actual trunk. Definitely happy with my purchase, but also am tempted by the Porsche GT cars (and will certainly own one at some point). I agree that the GTS is a crazy value right now. You have to think that prices would be 15-20% higher if the reviews had been more positive.

991.1 GT3 warranty is 10 year/120k mile. You can snag a 2015 and have 4.5 years of coverage left. I have Car-ADD, so would never own a car for even close to that amount of time.

Understandable if this is a long-term or forever car though.
In Dallas the traffic is definitely bad but the roads are horrendous. You can be driving along and out of nowhere hit a bump so bad that an SUV would be hard pressed to cope with it. Especially at night, I've bottomed out so many times in my daily I just think, if I was in a GT3 right now I'd break the car in half. That's the real issue and for primarily street driving you need something with a lot of ground clearance and supple suspension. I look at Nurburgring times because I know how bumpy that track is and if a car is doing decent lap times there it should be pretty capable anywhere. The fact that you can adjust the GTS' suspension was also a draw and I needed a trunk large enough to fit a set of golf clubs. So the manual trans isn't really the problem, GT4's are just too low and stiff, and there is no real upside (slow, impractical) for street driving here that makes up for having to tip toe around in a car like that.

GTS has a lot of the positive attributes of a Porsche GT car without some of the limitations that make those cars tough to drive on the street here. I know lots of guys with Porsche GT cars and the only ones that drive them much on the street are the GT3 Touring guys, the rest primarily track so it's not a valid comparison. For what it is, the GTS is good value and the 991.1 GT3's should be around the same price imo, especially given their motor issues.

Even with the 10yr warranty, I don't have the time to deal with cars being in the shop and if that motor blows up in the wrong driving situation could be dangerous. I just wouldn't want a car that I would worry about in the back of my mind and maybe drive more gingerly as a result. Not interested in more stress, the point of these cars is to de-stress. I have had pretty major car ADD in the past but looking to change that and find something I can stick with for a few years at least. Hopefully the GTS is it.
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      10-13-2020, 06:12 AM   #20
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my two cents...

i went from a 981 GT4 to a 991.1 GT3....and then a M4 GTS
i tracked them all. i owned the GT4 for alittle over an year, the GT3 for 8months, and now the GTS for over an year.

The GT4 is a balanced car. Refined and focused for its purpose. Engine power in line with it's place in the Porsche continuum. The manual box was second only to the 997.2 GT3/RS manual (which i also owned). On track, the car did not have any bad manners, it was car that was natural to drive, and one could crank out some decent lap times with a short acclimatization time. Now the bad....two things, power and gearing. It was neutered intentionally. The motor unit was the same out of the 991.1 GTS but with a restrictive plenum and the gearing was long. A car of that weight and HP should be sub4 sec 0-60 easy. A major reason I got out of it was, while its corner speed was stupid fast, it just lacked that extra grunt on the exit and the straights. Secondly, i just came to the realization that I am a forced induction man when it comes to power delivery. You had to be above 4500rpm in the GT4 to be in the power band. Street driving was OK, dampers were tuned well, but the long gearing just meant you didnt really shift much, which negated the interactivity of the manual.

The GTS is interesting. and most surprising. on paper, it doesnt seem like its that much different from a competition, or even CS. but each little tweak adds up to far noticeable improvement on track. I must preface that i say this having owned an OG F80 which was not a competition or CS. but the vehicle dynamics of the M4 are on par with a GT4/3

The 781 GT4 in manual is NOT any faster noticeably than the 981. its better aero accounts for the few seconds faster Ring time, imho, but its straight line performance, suspension geometry and gearbox remains unchanged from the 981. If you truly want a GT4, save yourself the money and get a 981 GT4.

In short, I consider a GTS to GT4 (manual) move a lateral one. what you gain, is offset by losses in other characteristics. Ultimately, it's up to you to in valuing what you want in a car.
I prefer the GTS over the GT4 due to power delivery, and interactivity/challenge to drive on track and street.
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      10-13-2020, 08:32 AM   #21
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you didn't mention the 991.1 GT3, why did you move on from that to a GTS and can you give some thoughts on the comparison between those two?
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      10-13-2020, 08:36 AM   #22
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here is also a big issue with the 718 GT4, the GTS 4.0 is likely a better car for most people, especially as a road car.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/f...s-hardcore-gt4
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