12-26-2013, 07:56 PM | #45 |
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12-26-2013, 08:03 PM | #46 |
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12-26-2013, 08:36 PM | #47 |
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I'm not going to reply blow-by-blow to your post because I don't know how to do that.
You wrote, "My only point, which is really my opinion is that the increase in performance and driving experience you get with the 911 does not justify the high cost." Great, that's your opinion. It's my opinion that the "high cost" of a Porsche is justified. We disagree. Big deal. This is a forum for conversation. |
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12-26-2013, 09:17 PM | #48 |
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The OP has a perfectly valid question, not sure it warrants the scathing reponses or the hysterical.pro-Ferrari ranting.
You guys should read some of the 'Bang for your buck' annual comparos that one of the Oz mags does, Wheels, or Motor. Invariably the winner, as decided by a panel of journalists and race drivers is actually one of the lower value cars (e.g. GT86) even though they have higher end and exotica in the test, because although the higher value cars are usually better, they are often only incrementally so, certainly not a factor of 2, 3 or 4. |
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12-26-2013, 10:11 PM | #49 |
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Like I said I love my Honda S2000! Plus in the 3 years I've owned it the car has gone up $5,000 in value!! Also if you bought a low mileage 2010 GT3 about 12 months ago for "market" you could have driven it and made $15,000 if you sold it today! How's that for value!
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12-26-2013, 11:28 PM | #50 |
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Beating the dead horse or at least resurrecting a dead part of the thread but there is very little justification comparing an M4 to a GT3 when performance wise and cost wise (and many other "wises") it is basically saddles right between the base 911 and the 911S (991).
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12-26-2013, 11:35 PM | #51 | ||
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12-27-2013, 12:18 AM | #52 | |
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The majority of people that can easily afford an M3, will not buy a Mustang, WRX, etc instead. The same can be said for people who can afford Ferraris, they are not likely going to pick an M3 instead. So those cars may not be worth twice as much when it comes to performance alone, but when you also factor in the quality, exclusivity, status, the price is justified for those who can afford it. |
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12-27-2013, 12:27 AM | #53 | ||
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12-27-2013, 05:03 AM | #54 | |
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I'm not saying that Porsche factory brakes aren't superior to BMWs. Nor am I saying that those brakes don't cost more. Porsche also enjoys THE highest margin in the industry. According to a German University study in 2013 in the first half of 2013, Porsche made an average profit of $22,405 USD per car or around 18.4% of the showroom price. One thing that helps keep the cost of a car like the 911 down compared to heavier cars is also simply that heavy cars are generally more expensive. There are obvious exceptions to this rule when very low production volumes and exotic materials come into play, however, the more raw materials in something the more it will cost. Lightweight Porsches save cost in this way and consequently enjoy more margin.
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12-27-2013, 05:27 AM | #55 |
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I can't agree with op statement that 458 doesn't cost the money, but on the other hand I agree that m3-m4 is on of the best bang for the buck, In overall performance,especially with weight reduction and hp/tq numbers they offer.
But I have to say that gt3 and 458 is in another league,status, and etc. so we can't compare them with bmw. But for example if to compare m3 with audi r8 I absolutely sure m3 is much better package!!!
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12-27-2013, 05:30 AM | #56 | |
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Porsche CCB and BMW CCB are both made by Brembo. The 997.1 didn't have a great quality interior some previous owner said here recently. More than the quality of each individual part, it's just as much that the 911 and a M3/M4 are two different car concepts from the ground. 911 don't have a 316d version that has to compete with other family cars. Which is why it's impressive what a M3 actually achieves compared with a 911! |
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12-27-2013, 01:09 PM | #57 | ||||||
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12-27-2013, 01:55 PM | #58 |
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The discounts get bigger on cars that expensive. When there is incentives you can get cars over $100k or $20k off MSRP. They might zero out the cost of a few options, and there's the $9k difference between invoice and MSRP.
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12-27-2013, 06:22 PM | #59 | |
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Now use that same analogy with M4 vs new Mustang. Ask yourself, how much more will you actually get, for the extra premium BMW charges..? Also, if BMW offered individual options and/or AWD.. taking the premium route, might feel premium. note: W/stang, the saving is enough to buy 4 winter tires, & attached them to a whole new car.. |
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12-27-2013, 06:30 PM | #60 |
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12-27-2013, 08:14 PM | #61 |
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Discussing which car is better - a subjective measure
Discussing which car is better is a very subjective measure. There are many factors coming into play when searching for the best car. It all depends on what you are going to use it for. I agree that comparing a Ferrari with a BMW does not make sense at all. Comparing a 5 series with a 3 series is of more interest because the cars can do more or less the same (just that the F10 has become a “comfortable pig” and the F30 is still a feather in comparison, I have owned both).
If money is of no issue, you will have several cars to cover different needs. In this case you take the car you feel for there and then. I would certainly place a Ferrari 458 or F430 in my garage if I could afford it… I have driven the F430 spider and know the difference compared with a M3 E92. The M3 is a great machine, but the feel of driving a Ferrari is in a different league. I hope the new M3/M4 will be so much lighter than the outgoing model that the agility will be improved. In this case most of us, that cannot afford having a Ferrari or Porche 911 (991) in our garage, can enjoy a M3/M4 with great driving dynamics and still bring family/friends with luggage around when needed. This does not mean the M3/M4 will ever be better than a Ferrari 458 or any other Ferrari model, because a Ferrari does what it is built for so amazingly well. Price is no issue in this category mind you. |
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12-27-2013, 08:38 PM | #62 |
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The M3 is a great compromise for the enthusiast who needs day-to-day utility. This is the "BMW value" that the OP speaks of. From the late 1980s until very recently if you needed to haul children, groceries, or put people in a back seat the M3 was the go-to car.
Infiniti made a run at BMW in the mid 2000s but seems to have given up the chase. Now Cadillac, Ford, and Mercedes are in the chase. Are their offerings exactly the same as BMW's? No. But each of those 3 have cars that scratch an itch that only the M3 had been able to reach. I just bought a CTS-V. Never in a thousand years did I think I would own a goddamned Cadillac. But it's an incredible car, there is little hope that a F8X M3/M4 can keep up with me either on a race track or at the dragstrip, especially if mods are on the table. And most importantly, it's fun to drive and has torque all over the place. Yes, it's ugly. Yes, it's American and doesn't have prestige. But I paid nearly half what a F80 will cost me for a car that is less than a year old with 10k miles. I do think comparing a M3 to a GT3 is a little ridiculous as the GT3 gives up a ton of utility for driving pleasure and speed. |
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12-27-2013, 09:35 PM | #63 | ||
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The point of this thread wasn't to claim that one car is better than another...I simply said that BMW M cars offer better packages (performance, interior, quality, feel, ect.) for their sell price, better than what ferrari and porsche offer for their sell prices. In other words, as good as the ferrari 458 and porsche 911 gt3 are, and even though they outperform BMW M Cars, I think they are way overpriced. Quote:
A ferrari 458 does not cost $233k to manufacture, prep and transport to the customer. A large portion of that MSRP is based on the company's desire to net a profit. Everyone, including BMW and Ford and even Kia, does this when figuring MSRP's for their cars...it's how capitalism works. I'll contend, however, that certain companies, like Ferrari and Porshe, do this to a greater extent than the others because they cater to a specific consumer group (the wealthy) and they know they can get away with it. |
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12-27-2013, 09:53 PM | #64 |
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I buy the best car for my needs and preferences that is within my car budget. I couldn't care less what the profit margin is on the car. If it's the best car for me for the price it's fairly valued as far as I'm concerned.
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12-28-2013, 01:25 AM | #65 | |
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Especially to the M5/6 being a highway cruiser and bang for the buck being the 2014 Corvette! |
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12-28-2013, 01:49 AM | #66 | |
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