CCB Replacement mileage

[evanevery]

So, once again... Has anyone else actually done a CCB pad and sensor replacement?

If so, where can I find the procedure documented and what are the torque values for the associated fasteners?

Thanks!

[melvyn]

Originally Posted by evanevery

The iDrive doesn't say ANY miles. Once the Brake Pad Sensor is tripped, it simply says you need pads. There is one sensor for the front and another sensor for the rear pads. It is not predictive, it just gets tripped. After that iDrive will tell you that you need service at every startup and the "BRAKE" warning light will be displayed on the dash. iDrive will tell you which set of pads (front or rear) was tripped though on the vehicle status screen.

Strange,

When I had these retrofitted and coded they started at 80k on fronts and 60k on rears on idrive, I questioned this with BM and was told they would update approx every 500 miles to your driving style, they are now sat at 110 fronts and 80 on the rears and seem to have settled at this.Once the pads start to wear I would of expected the idrive to show this as well

[evanevery]

I have no idea about how iDrive predicts any of this. I wasn't watching any of the predictions in any case.

The first time I noticed anything was when the brake wear sensor tripped the iDrive alert.

I don't think predictions of any sort are going to be of much value if you track your car. I effectively burned off the front pads in 4 track days...

[shahano]

evanevery, can you weigh ur discs and let us know if they are still within the range?
As for the pad sensors, I have no idea.

[melvyn]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I have no idea about how iDrive predicts any of this. I wasn't watching any of the predictions in any case.

The first time I noticed anything was when the brake wear sensor tripped the iDrive alert.

I don't think predictions of any sort are going to be of much value if you track your car. I effectively burned off the front pads in 4 track days...

Are your disc markers still silver and not turning black , BM were marketing the CCB with 2500 miles of heavy track use

[evanevery]

I'm not planning on pulling off my rotors - just replacing the pads. I'll take a look at the wear sensors on the rotors during the process.

There better be no effing way the rotors need replacement after only 4 track days...

I'll be out of the country for a couple of weeks starting Thursday and I probably wont be able to do any of this until after the pads are delivered sometime while I am away...

So NOBODY else has replaced their own CCB pads yet? Everyone has been taking them to the dealer?

[Oliver Queen]

I was told the ccb's are covered under the maintenance plan when I was buying the car, looks like I'll be in for a rodeo when the time comes...

[evanevery]

I guess that depends on how you use the car.

I'm not going to ask the dealer to replace my pads if I'm tracking the car heavily. That's a bit above and beyond "normal use" and I'm not going to lie to my dealer about tracking the car. I think (hope) we have a better relationship than that...

In fact, I had them mount my PSC2's after I burned off the factory Conti's sand they are well aware I'm tracking the car. I think they appreciate the fact that I'm being straightforward with them regarding on how I use the car. I'll take personal responsibility for any unusual wear and tear to the related parts. However, if the rotors are wearing out prematurely - even with heavy track use - then I will address that straight up and without having to be evasive...

[Flying Ace]

Hey guys, sorry to bump this thread again. I read it and I'm clear on when rotors should be measured (weighed and or visual on the wear indicators) and then replaced.

But what's the best way of checking for pad wear? It would still seem to be to check the idrive CBS counter for the pad sensors.

I'm not a current CCB owner, but I'm in the market of buying a M6 with MCCBs. Car has 40k miles on it, and I want to gauge whether and when the pads would need a change.


Thanks

[evanevery]

You check the PAD wear the same way you do for regular pads. Just examine/measure their thickness... Pad sensors are consumables as they get tripped when the pad backing plates get close enough to the rotors. Once tripped, the sensors have to be replaced. I've heard that some folks claim that changing CCB pads when they are only half used will extend the life of the CCB rotors. However, this should only have to be a consideration if you are using your car on the track.

Coincidentally, I just measured a new set of CCB Pads. The friction material is about 13mm thick on new front pads and 12mm thick on new rear pads.

If the car you are considering buying is a street car, then the CCB Rotors/Pads should last "almost forever". If its a track car, then they can burn off rather quickly...

BTW - I also just tried installing the RacingBrake CCB Iron Rotor Conversion Kit. (Iron Rotors and Track Pads to replace the CCB components - You keep the existing CCB calipers.) Lots of problems with this kit. The front "track" pads lasted less than a day and a half on the track and the backing plates were permanently deformed under brake loading. Backing plates hit the rotors without even tripping the pad sensor. Destroyed the front rotors. I have lots of photos and info. I've sent the kit back for a refund and I'll wait to see how RacingBrake handles this case before I start a new thread to document my experience... Anyway, CCB's back on the car (for now)!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I also just tried installing the RacingBrake CCB Iron Rotor Conversion Kit. (Iron Rotors and Track Pads to replace the CCB components - You keep the existing CCB calipers.) Lots of problems with this kit. The front "track" pads lasted less than a day and a half on the track and the backing plates were permanently deformed under brake loading. Backing plates hit the rotors without even tripping the pad sensor. Destroyed the front rotors. I have lots of photos and info. I've sent the kit back for a refund and I'll wait to see how RacingBrake handles this case before I start a new thread to document my experience... Anyway, CCB's back on the car (for now)!

Some coding modifications should be done performed when doing the conversion to prevent those specific issues. Also there has been a problem with improper removal of the front caliper on the F8x with MN6 units by removing the caliper from the bracket (incorrect) rather than the bracket from the swivel bearing.

The screws in the attached image should not be undone.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Some coding modifications should be done performed when doing the conversion to prevent those specific issues. Also there has been a problem with improper removal of the front caliper on the F8x with MN6 units by removing the caliper from the bracket (incorrect) rather than the bracket from the swivel bearing.

The screws in the attached image should not be undone.

- I'm aware of the proper caliper removal process and which bolts need to be undone. (Been There done that!)

- In fact, my BMW Service Center did the Brake Conversion using the RB Rotors and Pads...

- RB makes no mention of any coding changes being necessary. I know BMW did re-code my car when I had them upgrade my M6 from BMW Iron to BMW CCB's but the RB kit does not mention that requirement. I expect that since we are using the same Calipers, and the rotors and pads have the same dimensions, that no coding changes were required.

- The RB Conversion kit seemed to perform OK, but its longevity, design, and construction are not acceptable (IMHO)... If coding were to be required I would expect that to be somewhat obvious wrt braking performance...

[Polo08816]

Who is the OEM manufacturer for the CCB rotors and pad?

[Mikecom32]

I'm interested to hear RacingBrake's response to your problems.

I remember hearing that a lot of the Porsche guys swap back to iron brakes for the track, since CCBs get too expensive for real track use.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Who is the OEM manufacturer for the CCB rotors and pad?

Both came from RacingBrake directly. Packaging and labeling indicates they are both RB products.

However I *THINK* they make their own rotors but outsource the pads from another manufacturer. Their website says they use major pad manufacturers "like Hawk"... (If that's a hint...)

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Mikecom32

I'm interested to hear RacingBrake's response to your problems.

I remember hearing that a lot of the Porsche guys swap back to iron brakes for the track, since CCBs get too expensive for real track use.

That was my intent as well. However, the front pads lasted less than a day and a half of track sessions! Using my VBOX, I calculated about 86 laps (172 miles) before total pad failure on the front.

The backing plates on the front pads are also not appropriate for our application (IMHO). They have large lightening holes directly under the rims of the caliper pistons which cause the backing plates to deform. Very bad design I think. It appears that the pads may have been designed for use with a different piston layout (although they fit our calipers).

The Wear Sensor also has a different location on the pads. The wear sensor itself failed on my front caliper. It broke away from the backing plate well before it had an opportunity to burn off. Something is not right here as well.

I expect I should I have not been so confident in the RB product. (Who would think that the pads would effectively have to be changed EVERY night after a day of track lapping at my Country Club (Autobahn)?). The pads wore down to bare metal in less than a day and a half and they went metal on metal with the rotors. The wear sensor broke away from their backing plate so I had no advance warning.

Things might have ended up a little better (for the rotors) if I had been keeping an eye on the pads after every session, but even if the pad backing plates were a decent design, and even if the wear sensor fitted and worked properly, who wants a brake system that requires you to change the pads every night? ...and these were club lapping sessions NOT full on races! NOT acceptable... NOT cheaper (pad-wise anyway)... (It should be said that I WAS happy with the braking performance and modulation though).

(As a reference, I think I was getting about 5 or 6 track days out of the CCB pads...)

RB might have a workable product if they supplied different pads from a different manufacturer. I'll never know though cause I sent the whole kit back for a refund. We'll see how that goes...

[Teo28]

I have CCBs, and I'm planning to change my front oem pads as well.
I've done 3 track days, and I never really like the initial bite of the oem ccb. Probably good for street use; plus the original pads wares out too quickly.

Anyway, I drove my friend M4 with endless breaks pads on CCB rotors, and I really like the feeling and the power of the breaks compere to mine.
So I think I'll go this way.

Only problem with endless pads is that they make a lot of noise, but I hope to fix it with some anti rattle disks.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Teo28

I have CCBs, and I'm planning to change my front oem pads as well.
I've done 3 track days, and I never really like the initial bite of the oem ccb. Probably good for street use; plus the original pads wares out too quickly.

Anyway, I drove my friend M4 with endless breaks pads on CCB rotors, and I really like the feeling and the power of the breaks compere to mine.
So I think I'll go this way.

Only problem with endless pads is that they make a lot of noise, but I hope to fix it with some anti rattle disks.

Are those pads appropriate for use with CCB Rotors? I was not aware of anyone who made aftermarket pads for our CCB Rotors...

If, not, you definitely should not be using non-CCB pads with CCB rotors...

Also, how do those pads effect rotor wear. The CCB pads are NOT the problem. Yes, they are about twice the costs of Iron rotor pads but they also last 5 or 6 track days. The expensive part of the equation is the $3K CCB Rotors. If those "other" pads are not improving CCB rotor life, or even making it worse, I don't think I'ld be using them!

[MasterP]

Endless and Pagid make CCB specific friction compounds. Pagid is RSC1 only for M3/4 around $900. Endless pads are W-008, W-007.

4-6 track days on a set of Rotors would be expected. You can probably stretch that a few if you don't run the pads below 50 percent friction material. Brake cooling will help especially on these heavy cars without factory cooling.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by MasterP

Endless and Pagid make CCB specific friction compounds. Pagid is RSC1 only for M3/4 around $900. Endless pads are W-008, W-007.

4-6 track days on a set of Rotors would be expected. You can probably stretch that a few if you don't run the pads below 50 percent friction material. Brake cooling will help especially on these heavy cars without factory cooling.

You mean 4-6 track days on a set of "PADS", right? I would hope for much more than that on the CCB rotors.

Thanks for the part numbers. Is that Pagid price for the full pad set (Front/Rear)? BMW CCB pads are "only" $600 for the front...and $300 for the rear...

How do the aftermarket CCB pads compare to the BMW pads? Performance? Longevity?

Thanks!

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by evanevery

You mean 4-6 track days on a set of "PADS", right? I would hope for much more than that on the CCB rotors.

Thanks for the part numbers. Is that Pagid price for the full pad set (Front/Rear)? BMW CCB pads are "only" $600 for the front...and $300 for the rear...

How do the aftermarket CCB pads compare to the BMW pads? Performance? Longevity?

Thanks!

That was for a full set at standard retail prices.

I cannot speak for BMW's rotor wear under track use since they are structurally different from the Brembo made CCB's my Mclaren uses and the car is much heavier than anything I've tracked with carbon brakes. But my personal experience is the rotors have worn out after 6 track days on the same pads. A friend in a 675 got 8-9 on his, but he was tossing his pads at half worn since the pads were cheaper than the rotors. This is at a GP track so a small local track could have been different. More heat is transferred to the discs and fluid as the pad thins.

The CCB's in the BMW's seem to be a bit more robust than the CCM's in the Mclaren/Ferrari/Aston/Corvette's. The CCB's BMW uses are SGL so that's the same type being used on Porsche/Audi/Lambo. You can see their structure is quite different and the silicon carbide friction layer is said to be denser on the SGL versions.

I've had the CCM's on the Mclaren and the fiber's would actually fall off the rotor as they wore. You can tell instantly when you look at a car with CCM's if it's been tracked. Street only cars rotors will look like glass. Tracked cars will be dull and rotors will have pockmarks in the friction surface.

The CCB's in my Superlegerra stayed like glass even after track use. You have to weigh those for sure to measure wear beyond the wear indicators.

I ran RSC1's in the Mclaren and the biggest difference is bite and heat tolerance. The standard pads feel like tracking on a street pad. You can still fade ceramic brakes and usually it's pad fade. The RSC1's have much better bite and will take everything you can throw at them. I find it remarkable anyone would track on the pads BMW issues from the factory. Maybe people aren't stepping up to really grippy tires because of the forced 19's to notice.

Main thing about pad wear on brakes is cooling. These cars have no factory brake cooling. Not even an attempt was made from the factory to cool them. Even my X5M has brake ducts and air guides. These cars are 3400-3600 pounds and lots of power. They need cooling if durability is a concern.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by MasterP

That was for a full set at standard retail prices.

I cannot speak for BMW's rotor wear under track use since they are structurally different from the Brembo made CCB's my Mclaren uses and the car is much heavier than anything I've tracked with carbon brakes. But my personal experience is the rotors have worn out after 6 track days on the same pads. A friend in a 675 got 8-9 on his, but he was tossing his pads at half worn since the pads were cheaper than the rotors. This is at a GP track so a small local track could have been different. More heat is transferred to the discs and fluid as the pad thins.

The CCB's in the BMW's seem to be a bit more robust than the CCM's in the Mclaren/Ferrari/Aston/Corvette's. The CCB's BMW uses are SGL so that's the same type being used on Porsche/Audi/Lambo. You can see their structure is quite different and the silicon carbide friction layer is said to be denser on the SGL versions.

I've had the CCM's on the Mclaren and the fiber's would actually fall off the rotor as they wore. You can tell instantly when you look at a car with CCM's if it's been tracked. Street only cars rotors will look like glass. Tracked cars will be dull and rotors will have pockmarks in the friction surface.

The CCB's in my Superlegerra stayed like glass even after track use. You have to weigh those for sure to measure wear beyond the wear indicators.

I ran RSC1's in the Mclaren and the biggest difference is bite and heat tolerance. The standard pads feel like tracking on a street pad. You can still fade ceramic brakes and usually it's pad fade. The RSC1's have much better bite and will take everything you can throw at them. I find it remarkable anyone would track on the pads BMW issues from the factory. Maybe people aren't stepping up to really grippy tires because of the forced 19's to notice.

Main thing about pad wear on brakes is cooling. These cars have no factory brake cooling. Not even an attempt was made from the factory to cool them. Even my X5M has brake ducts and air guides. These cars are 3400-3600 pounds and lots of power. They need cooling if durability is a concern.

That's lots of good info, thanks!

I am tracking the car pretty aggressively. That's about the only use the car see's. I'm currently running Hoosier R7 racing slicks and I'm using t5he car, brakes, and tires to every bit of my ability. I would consider that pretty serious use...

My last set of CCB rotors lasted about 15-20 track days. The pads about half that. Rear pads are lasting about twice as long as the fronts but the rotors seem to be bout on par (just slightly longer than fronts). I'm not changing my pads out early (half way) but maybe its worth a try. Again, this is all effectively track use.

The initial bite on the BMW CCB pads/rotors is very good and I have not noticed any significant fade during heavy use.

My CCB rotors do not seem to visually deteriorate at all. I have had to weigh them originally, but now I have a Carboteq Proceq device specifically made for checking CCB rotors ($6500!).

I was hoping the RacingBrake CCB to Iron Rotor Conversion kit would be a just the ticket for making track use a little more affordable. However, given their questionable pad design and lack of longevity it looks like I may have to research/test a complete Iron conversion (inc Calipers)... The promise of just changing Rotors and Pads seems to have proven unsatisfactory for several reasons...