Who has driven an F8x M3/M4 in the snow? Describe your experiences

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

My 330i e90 was all over the place too. But granted, Michelin alpin snow tires are nothing to write home about.

Oh you don't like them much? That's unfortunate. I am curious, is your last experience with these tires in the E36 era? In my case, I have been using them for years and find them to be very capable. Despite outward appearances to the casual observer, tire technology does in fact progress just like other components of the car (I'm sure you are aware though). If you took some time to try out a late model RWD car in the snow with its modern chassis and some state of the art tires, you might be surprised to learn how far things have come.

And I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to driving.

Ah, I see. Well, the OP on the other hand is presumably a bit more capable since he currently drives a C230 year round.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...3#post17163873

So he would not be facing quite the same challenges that you would with a switch to an M3.

I can drive my 335i xDrive with all seasons like a proper maniac, and barely loose traction. It just inspires more confidence.

If it inspires confidence in you then that's a win right there. Maybe I'm more of an improper maniac then. Could be why I didn't experience that same sort of inspiration when I had an AWD car (E46 325xi).

[gthal]

Just got 6" of snow and freezing rain. In 6" or so of unplowed snow the car struggles a bit to get going But that's to be expected given I'm acting as a snow plow

On streets that have had some clearing but still have inch or more of snow and slush the car does very well with the Nokian R2. I'm pretty confident going through any weather as long as it isn't above the front bumper. The car is very balanced and predictable and I'm not having any issue with excess torque. Overall the car doesn't perform notably differently than my E92 in poor weather.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by gthal

Just got 6" of snow and freezing rain. In 6" or so of unplowed snow the car struggles a bit to get going But that's to be expected given I'm acting as a snow plow

On streets that have had some clearing but still have inch or more of snow and slush the car does very well with the Nokian R2. I'm pretty confident going through any weather as long as it isn't above the front bumper. The car is very balanced and predictable and I'm not having any issue with excess torque. Overall the car doesn't perform notably differently than my E92 in poor weather.

I would be concerned of damaging the oil cooler, which faces downward behind the bumper (something non-M cars don't have). Wait til they plow the street first as warranty doesn't cover user error.

[Daft]

These threads are just silly. It all comes down to tires. Get a good set of snows and you'll be fine. I drive my ESS VT2-650 E92 M3 in Canadian winters with a set of Blizzak WS-60 and it's all good. The only problem you'll run into is if the snow is too deep and doesn't clear your front bumper. Then you'll be an M3 plow

[hinckley]

I drove RWD BMWs for over 20 years through New England winters, always with a set of good snow tires. It can be done. However, three years ago, I switched to an S4 (with a set of good snow tires) and I can't go back.

My RWD BMWs got me through just about everything - just about. But over the last two years, I've had two long mountain drives in the S4 that simply could not have been done with a RWD BMW. The last one was the night before our Thanksgiving, driving through the New Hampshire mountains in a 16-inch snow storm. I had three kids in the car with me. In four hours, I passed 12 cars off the road. My AWD S4 plowed through it all.

The Audi's now three years old and I'm thinking about my next car. I've driven the M3 and absolutely want it. But I simply won't buy it. That night a month ago with kids in the car made up my mind.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I drove RWD BMWs for over 20 years through New England winters, always with a set of good snow tires. It can be done. However, three years ago, I switched to an S4 (with a set of good snow tires) and I can't go back.

My RWD BMWs got me through just about everything - just about. But over the last two years, I've had two long mountain drives in the S4 that simply could not have been done with a RWD BMW. The last one was the night before our Thanksgiving, driving through the New Hampshire mountains in a 16-inch snow storm. I had three kids in the car with me. In four hours, I passed 12 cars off the road. My AWD S4 plowed through it all.

The Audi's now three years old and I'm thinking about my next car. I've driven the M3 and absolutely want it. But I simply won't buy it. That night a month ago with kids in the car made up my mind.

Well, obviously AWD on snows beats RWD on snows. And if you're out in that stuff often, definitely the way to go.

But it all comes down to where you drive, how often you get snow, and how often you have to drive in it. I've owned RWD cars with snows, and AWD / 4WD with and without. Have been in a position to "get by" with AWD as I didn't have to go out if it snowed. And now in the South, no need.

Given a choice of RWD on Winters or AWD on All Seasons, and having to drive in the snow, I'd take the former every time.

[M4TW]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I drove RWD BMWs for over 20 years through New England winters, always with a set of good snow tires. It can be done. However, three years ago, I switched to an S4 (with a set of good snow tires) and I can't go back.

My RWD BMWs got me through just about everything - just about. But over the last two years, I've had two long mountain drives in the S4 that simply could not have been done with a RWD BMW. The last one was the night before our Thanksgiving, driving through the New Hampshire mountains in a 16-inch snow storm. I had three kids in the car with me. In four hours, I passed 12 cars off the road. My AWD S4 plowed through it all.

The Audi's now three years old and I'm thinking about my next car. I've driven the M3 and absolutely want it. But I simply won't buy it. That night a month ago with kids in the car made up my mind.

I felt the same about my 335xi before I went to the M4. I was going to keep it as my winter beater (though a pretty nice one) and ended up using my wife's Evoque for the conditions you describe.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I drove RWD BMWs for over 20 years through New England winters, always with a set of good snow tires. It can be done. However, three years ago, I switched to an S4 (with a set of good snow tires) and I can't go back.....

The F8x does well really well vs the F10 550i I had. We got a few inches last night. I realized that with the m-diff in the snow, its more effective to give it extra throttle while turning. Verse driving a car with a standard stupid diff.. Makes quiet a bit of difference. Now this isn't full wide open throttle but you can feel the diff working its magic in the snow while turning.

Snow comes down to ground clearance and traction. Without a doubt an S4 with snows is going to perform better than a M3 in the snow under certain conditions. However, an SUV or even a pickup with 4wd would do better than your S4 in the snow with the proper tires.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I drove RWD BMWs for over 20 years through New England winters, always with a set of good snow tires. It can be done. However, three years ago, I switched to an S4 (with a set of good snow tires) and I can't go back.

My RWD BMWs got me through just about everything - just about. But over the last two years, I've had two long mountain drives in the S4 that simply could not have been done with a RWD BMW. The last one was the night before our Thanksgiving, driving through the New Hampshire mountains in a 16-inch snow storm. I had three kids in the car with me. In four hours, I passed 12 cars off the road. My AWD S4 plowed through it all.

The Audi's now three years old and I'm thinking about my next car. I've driven the M3 and absolutely want it. But I simply won't buy it. That night a month ago with kids in the car made up my mind.

The S4 is one hell of a capable car, and Audi (and Subaru) make the best AWD systems in the business. I totally get what you're saying. I swore off the M3 after my e92, ant got the 335 xDrive. Well, here I am ordering another M car.

[X2Board]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

The S4 is one hell of a capable car, and Audi (and Subaru) make the best AWD systems in the business. I totally get what you're saying. I swore off the M3 after my e92, ant got the 335 xDrive. Well, here I am ordering another M car.

What?! No Hellcat?

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by X2Board

What?! No Hellcat?

If my order gets pushed into a 2016 MY car, then I am still considering it. But for now, let's say they made me an offer I can not refuse, on the f80. What can I say. My hellish feline dreams may have to wait.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by M4TW

I felt the same about my 335xi before I went to the M4. I was going to keep it as my winter beater (though a pretty nice one) and ended up using my wife's Evoque for the conditions you describe.

I think someone in Australia just hard a heart attack, reading that you may have used a $150,000 AUD 335i as winter beater.

[purdyawesome]

Pulled out of a resort parking lot this morning in small town in WI. Having been kept in a covered valet garage overnight this was the first snow my M3 had ever seen. Slid around a bit in the lot and struggled more than I would have expected on the public road for the first few hundred
feet. Total accumulation of maybe 1.5", 20 degrees F, snowpacked roads.... After a 1/4mi on the public road, we slowed to about 12mph to make a slow left hand turn into a nice shopping center for a late breakfast. My car immediately began spinning a 360 all the way to the point that I was pointed back exactly in the direction of original travel. Rather than maneuver back around into the shopping center, I just gassed her up and continued right back along- said the first thing that came to mind to my wife, "well, must be a sign. the food must suck". Followed by nervous laughter as a I knew I had a 2hr drive ahead of me. The Pirelli Sottozero's on my car weren't exactly confidence inspiring this morning but surprisingly, once on the highway, we didn't experience another hiccup for the duration of our trip. Left me thinking- are snow tires on these cars more, "slick road, cold/wet condition-geared" than they are actually functional in the snow? Moral of the story is, it was more sketchy in the snow than I hoped/expected with a proper high-end snow-purposed tire!

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by purdyawesome

Pulled out of a resort parking lot this morning in small town in WI. Having been kept in a covered valet garage overnight this was the first snow my M3 had ever seen. Slid around a bit in the lot and struggled more than I would have expected on the public road for the first few hundred
feet. Total accumulation of maybe 1.5", 20 degrees F, snowpacked roads.... After a 1/4mi on the public road, we slowed to about 12mph to make a slow left hand turn into a nice shopping center for a late breakfast. My car immediately began spinning a 360 all the way to the point that I was pointed back exactly in the direction of original travel. Rather than maneuver back around into the shopping center, I just gassed her up and continued right back along- said the first thing that came to mind to my wife, "well, must be a sign. the food must suck". Followed by nervous laughter as a I knew I had a 2hr drive ahead of me. The Pirelli Sottozero's on my car weren't exactly confidence inspiring this morning but surprisingly, once on the highway, we didn't experience another hiccup for the duration of our trip. Left me thinking- are snow tires on these cars more, "slick road, cold/wet condition-geared" than they are actually functional in the snow? Moral of the story is, it was more sketchy in the snow than I hoped/expected with a proper high-end snow-purposed tire!

What a scare! This seems very realistic, and hits pretty close to home.


Other members make it seem like driving a high powered RWD car like this is no sweat. Of course there will be problems, and you had better be anticipating them every second of the way. That's how you ... avoid problems. You will not have enough warning when they happen. It goes from zero to stuck-in-a-ditch pretty quick.


So ... was the food any good?

[JoeFromPA]

You did a 360 on winter tires when you began a left turn with dsc on?

Sounds like you were on ice to me. That's not normal behavior even with decent all seasons.

[boi222]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

You did a 360 on winter tires when you began a left turn with dsc on?

Sounds like you were on ice to me. That's not normal behavior even with decent all seasons.

I have to agree.. Something doesn't sound right .. Did you give any sudden gas?

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by fbm3cab

I learnt how to drive in the snow 30 plus years back with my 69 Mustang 302 5 speed here in Canada. Had loads of fun sliding all over the place and getting stuck in the snow.

It didn't take long to get sick of that shit!

I enjoy the traction from a heavy SUV for winter driving and yes weight does HELP provide better traction in the snow, it cant be a coincidence that out of the 10 plus SUV I have ever owned the best traction comes from the heaviest.

M3/4 DOES NOT = WINTER BEATER

Just my two cents!

I agree with this... I made it through winter on my F10 m5 with Summer tires and 295 rears and near 5000lbs is very different from 38/3900lbs...

I wasn't out ripping around but I could almost always move around freely within a day or two of accumulation on summers, but I don't think I'd try it with the m4. It just gets too lose.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by hinckley

I drove RWD BMWs for over 20 years through New England winters, always with a set of good snow tires. It can be done. However, three years ago, I switched to an S4 (with a set of good snow tires) and I can't go back.

My RWD BMWs got me through just about everything - just about. But over the last two years, I've had two long mountain drives in the S4 that simply could not have been done with a RWD BMW. The last one was the night before our Thanksgiving, driving through the New Hampshire mountains in a 16-inch snow storm. I had three kids in the car with me. In four hours, I passed 12 cars off the road. My AWD S4 plowed through it all.

The Audi's now three years old and I'm thinking about my next car. I've driven the M3 and absolutely want it. But I simply won't buy it. That night a month ago with kids in the car made up my mind.

We are lucky enough to have both M4 and S4 in our driveway. I agree, Quattro is tough act to beat when the white stuff gets deep.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

I agree with this... I made it through winter on my F10 m5 with Summer tires and 295 rears and near 5000lbs is very different from 38/3900lbs...

I wasn't out ripping around but I could almost always move around freely within a day or two of accumulation on summers, but I don't think I'd try it with the m4. It just gets too lose.

Weight is good to get going from a stop, not to turn or actually stop. Driving on summers on any car is (sorry) a very dumb and dangerous way to go - whether AWD, FWD or RWD. Even crappy all seasons would be better.

For the millionth time: good winter tires, careful throttle, you will be fine.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

What a scare! This seems very realistic, and hits pretty close to home.

Other members make it seem like driving a high powered RWD car like this is no sweat. Of course there will be problems, and you had better be anticipating them every second of the way. That's how you ... avoid problems. You will not have enough warning when they happen. It goes from zero to stuck-in-a-ditch pretty quick.

I agree with everything you said above, with one small change. I would have said it like this:

Other members make it seem like driving a high powered car like this is no sweat. Of course there will be problems, and you had better be anticipating them every second of the way. That's how you ... avoid problems. You will not have enough warning when they happen. It goes from zero to stuck-in-a-ditch pretty quick.

Still a very true statement, right? Yes indeed.

Plus, let's be honest, absolutely nothing about this:

After a 1/4mi on the public road, we slowed to about 12mph to make a slow left hand turn into a nice shopping center for a late breakfast. My car immediately began spinning a 360 all the way to the point that I was pointed back exactly in the direction of original travel.

Verifies in any way that the addition of AWD would have made the outcome different. Why? Because he slid rounding a corner at very slow speed, and that could easily have been due to a slippery patch of ice which will cause a loss of control in any vehicle regardless of which wheels are connected to the engine.

Did overzealous input on the accelerator contribute to the incident? Perhaps. But we don't know that. Furthermore, even if it was throttle induced oversteer that got the car off the rails in this case, a dozen other people who come along and spin out doing that same thing this winter might lose control despite no throttle input at all, or despite having AWD and yet still not knowing how and when to apply throttle. In fact, you don't even need to be in a performance car to do that (it turns out that non-performance cars can be driven poorly too), or for that matter in a car an all - an SUV will slide across black ice just a surely as a car will.

So anyway, Falafel, tell us more about your M3 order? What options did you select and when do expect to take delivery?

[JoeFromPA]

Last winter I drove a 6000 pound 2007 vw touareg TDI (5.0 liter v10 twin turbo diesel). It was riding on good quality but semi-worn toyo a/t tires in 255 width. Relatively short wheelbase.

It was literally the worst experience I remember having in any vehicle in the winter and it had zero to do with it's 600+ lb/ft of torque.

Sure, I could probably power out of ANY snow drift. And it had an adjustable air suspension where I could raise the vehicle an additional 6" by twisting a knob in the cabin.

The problem was mass, momentum, and height: When control was lost, in any situation, the movement was ridiculous. The ability to re-gain control in ANY sort of reasonable time frame/distance was scary. I once slid down a slight incline about 150 feet going 10mph and there was zero response to braking or steering input and it was headed into an intersection so I wasn't goosing the throttle (there was no where to go). It wasn't even that cold/icy....it was just that it had lost traction and wasn't going to regain it.

Now alot of that was tires, absolutely. But I realized right then and there that I vastly prefered to drive a lower, lighter, more balanced chassis in the winter because of control.

The m3 is a wonderful platform for winter driving with the exception of clearance and front bumper height. Everything else it is well suited for. It's a great RWD platform, a great rear diff platform, and it's wheelbase and balance is well suited.

The only things you need to do are:

1. Have the right tires for your environment
2. Leave the car in efficient mode
3. Leave DSC or at least MDM on
4. Use your right foot very lightly
5. Learn some basics of how the vehicle both loses control and regains it by practicing in a snowy and open parking lot when an opportunity presents itself. Get comfortable with those reactions necessary to get where you want when the vehicle loses control.

AWD/4wd offers only two real benefits in the winter:

1. It's much harder to get completely stuck or unable to accelerate compared to RWD/FWD
2. In an open road situation if you start to slide or lose traction at all, a slight increase in throttle can pull you back on track.

It does not benefit braking or turning in limited-space environments, which is where things are most frequently truly dangerous.

Joe

P.s. I've owned and LOVED the awd systems on two subarus, my wife's 535xit, and the 4wd system on my prior jeep wrangler. And I really enjoy the ability in AWD to not worry much about accelerative traction in dry or wet from a stop or in a turn. But in exchange for those benefits you gain weight, lose engine efficiency (power to the wheels), and lose fuel economy.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by purdyawesome

The Pirelli Sottozero's on my car weren't exactly confidence inspiring this morning but surprisingly, once on the highway, we didn't experience another hiccup for the duration of our trip. Left me thinking- are snow tires on these cars more, "slick road, cold/wet condition-geared" than they are actually functional in the snow? Moral of the story is, it was more sketchy in the snow than I hoped/expected with a proper high-end snow-purposed tire!

When I was buying my winter tires 2 years ago, I was told that sottozeros were better on cold-dry roads, and blizzaks were better on snow and ice. So I went for blizzaks