Possible M4 dilemma

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Romo

No doubts what so ever an M4 being a terrific sports car, it is just the sheer size that puts me on hold right now.

In my country (famous for ridiculous car taxes based on CO2 emissions) the Cayman GTS cost without options €92K, an M4 base price is €105K

I do not need a big car i.e. 4 seats, I want a small, light and agile car.......

Seriously, Norway, Netherlands, Finland, and if I remember correctly Turkey should have our own thread just for us to cry.

http://www.bmw.fi/fi/fi/insights/prices/datasheets.html

So the car I ordered costs here 74 k plus taxes, abt 6k. in dollars. That's abt 58 000 euros, and if you check, you will know it's hard to buy an Audi A4 with that little money back in the north.

The M4 starts at 120 490, 64 euros, which in America is 166 939,79 dollars. full leather is an option, for over five k. I won't even start on the rest.

Okay, we have the freedom of speech and all, free press (that makes us read utter bull shit), schools are good, and street numbers that make sense, but listed above is the reason, why I lifted my ass (they did not make me move, though with a mouth like mine I think they would have paid me to leave) and told the dear old hubby, that America sounds really good just about now.

I have written this before also, but you know here that a person is from europe, if they look like they are high while pumping gas. I for one grin like an idiot, it's so cheap I want to bathe in it.

[Sparco]

Originally Posted by MeganeTrophyGuy

This is a really great thread with many issues that have been on my mind lately as well. I loved my old E36 M3 and E46 Alpina B3S but felt that even back then there was a tendency for each generation of M-car to be getting larger, heavier more technology-dependent and even a little softer.

I too, am always looking for the most exciting drivers cars and in the past have had two late 90s Stis, an Alfa 147 GTA, 2010 Golf Gti, 2010 Boxtser S, 2012 Renault Megane RS Trophy and now my BMW M135 (which is the spiritual successor to the amazing 1M, with "light" {by BMW standards} body weight and an incredibly powerful and instantly responsive engine).

You mentioned the GTS, which is on my list too, but from what you've said, I wonder if you were struck by the same thing I was - that Porsche too, seems to be getting a little too "GT-ish" for lack of a better word. My Boxtser S was a 2010 and I have to say that I thought the steering feel almost sublime - giving a sensation of connectivity with the car and road that I for one feel is missing from the latest generations of 911/Boxster/Cayman. I think this is also true of the new PDK unit which I find too smooth, and the PASM sports suspension which in my old Boxster was wonderfully tight and communicative in the sport setting, but in the new 911 and Boxtser feel far too soft and luxurious to give that sports car feel. I test drove each, several times trying to convince myself to upgrade, but they just weren't raw or sporty enough and I went the exact opposite direction and got a Renault Megane RS Trophy which has one of the best, most communicative suspension set ups I have ever experienced.

The new Porsches are beautiful cars to look at, and very smooth to drive, but are missing a lot of the rawness and connectivity I felt in my 987 Boxster S. Electric steering, electronic parking brake, start-stop technology, soft and smooth PASM and PDK, is this really the direction Porsche wants to go?

I too, was hoping the GTS model line would be a push back to their roots but as far as I can see, they are just fully optioned S models with a minor 15hp boost.

What they need is something like the Cayman R/Spyder line with a lot of weight savings (and hopefully recalibrated, or better yet, return to hydraulic steering unit).

Though I am discouraged to hear that the M4 has artificially produced engine sound and is still as heavy as the E36/E46 era M3s, I am still very much looking forward to driving it, hoping that the overall package will offer a more agile, connected feel than previous generations. What would be great is if they eventually offered a CSL version like they did with the E46, which I thought was one of the most driving focused M3s of recent years.

Lets face it, modern cars when one begins to speak about driver involvement is becoming harder and harder to find. With the manual gearbox on its way out, for me, is one of the biggest pieces that I potentially will miss the most. Enjoying making a precise gear change or perfectly executed heal-toe-blip will become a lost art as computers/electronics take over. For example, a GTR, which is a terrific car in just about every performance category, is one of the most un-involving cars to drive. Before everyone starts bashing my opinion, make no mistake, its probably set a new bench mark for performance manufactures to aim for. Porsche really took notice when it had its Nurburgring lap time announced squarely beating a modern 997 Turbo. Again, a GTR is a superb car, but for me, not much it terms of what I want out of a car. Yes, put a 6-speed performance car and the same car with DSG, DCT, etc. next to it and the majority of the time, the dual clutch car will win. I personally would take the manual option, while I still can. As for engine sound being piped into cabins, etc. I think this will become more and more popular. Manufactures know consumers WANT to hear the cars induction noise, exhaust note etc. I have the noise piped into the cabin in the Fiesta ST I own. Doesn't really bother me, but some may believe a little fake, etc. Jaguar recently released the new F-Type coupe. A month or so ago, I was fortunate enough to test drive both a V6 S and V8 S convertible back to back. The sound of both cars was incredible. You just can't believe how the V8 sounds on the over run.

If the M4 performs, sounds, and feels like I hope it will, I'm sold.

[MeganeTrophyGuy]

Originally Posted by Sparco

Lets face it, modern cars when one begins to speak about driver involvement is becoming harder and harder to find. With the manual gearbox on its way out, for me, is one of the biggest pieces that I potentially will miss the most. Enjoying making a precise gear change or perfectly executed heal-toe-blip will become a lost art as computers/electronics take over. For example, a GTR, which is a terrific car in just about every performance category, is one of the most un-involving cars to drive. Before everyone starts bashing my opinion, make no mistake, its probably set a new bench mark for performance manufactures to aim for. Porsche really took notice when it had its Nurburgring lap time announced squarely beating a modern 997 Turbo. Again, a GTR is a superb car, but for me, not much it terms of what I want out of a car. Yes, put a 6-speed performance car and the same car with DSG, DCT, etc. next to it and the majority of the time, the dual clutch car will win. I personally would take the manual option, while I still can. As for engine sound being piped into cabins, etc. I think this will become more and more popular. Manufactures know consumers WANT to hear the cars induction noise, exhaust note etc. I have the noise piped into the cabin in the Fiesta ST I own. Doesn't really bother me, but some may believe a little fake, etc. Jaguar recently released the new F-Type coupe. A month or so ago, I was fortunate enough to test drive both a V6 S and V8 S convertible back to back. The sound of both cars was incredible. You just can't believe how the V8 sounds on the over run.

If the M4 performs, sounds, and feels like I hope it will, I'm sold.

Totally agree about the your hopes for the M4 (my first M3 was in Dakar Yellow and I would love to get one in whatever name they are using for that M4 yellow in all the pictures!) as well as your reservation on the GTR - I test drove one back in 2010 , and as much as I was just completely blown away by the raw, unadulterated, Starship Enterprise kind of warp speed, it was (1) just too laden with technology that separated the driver from the car and the road, and (2) ironically not very well suited for Japanese roads, where speed limits are so low and roads are so narrow. I think I might have considered one if I lived in Germany and had access to places like Autobahn and the Nurburgring where you could really access the what the GTR is capable of, but most of what makes that car great can't be enjoyed in Japan. In the end I was much more convinced by and ended up buying a Boxster S which was incredibly tactile, especially at the more sane speeds allowed by Japanese law. My only regret was going for the PDK as it seems to rob me of some of the fun of an otherwise extremely communicative car. Thats what led me to eventually sell it and get the Megane Trophy RS 6-speed, which had one of the best OEM suspension and tire set ups I've ever experienced.

As for the artificially enhanced engine noise, while it didn't bother me that they did this in my old 2009 Golf Gti or my current M135i (maybe because they are both considered to be "lesser" sports models than their more expensive brothers), it did kind of bother me that they started to do this in proper full-on M cars (where the expectations of an undiluted, driving experience are higher) and seems one small example of the larger problem facing many sports car manufacturers. Although technology is seductive because it sells cars, is "sexy", offers a greener, more economical and often safer driving experience, I think that it is also a a slippery slope for companies trying to produce "the ultimate sports car".

Just like with the GTR (as well as with the current generation of 911/Boxster/Cayman) BMW seems to be running the risk of letting their multiple advanced technology systems dilute the connectivity and tactileness of the driving experience - the pure connection a driver feels with his vehicle and and the road.

Will be waiting with baited breath to see how it drives, crossing my fingers that in at least this one instance, the M-engineers rather than the bean counters won the argument...

[Imola3]

Great discussion gents, all I want to add is that I agree. I want a pure, raw drivers car. For the connection and experience you get when driving it. Ive always said that if I could afford a 458, that I would much rather buy a Noble M600. It has no drivers aids i.e. no ABS or Stability control, only traction control. 650hp twin turbo V8 in the middle of an all carbon fiber monocoque that weighs 2600 pounds and not to mention a manual 6 speed transmission. Its a car that is compared to the old Ferrari F40 which is very high praise. This all may be irrelevant because you guys are talking about cars in the 80k to 120k dollar range, not 300k. But I'm just making the point about the idea of the pure drivers car. In my eyes the closest modern car we can get to is the new GT3, or maybe an RS version with a proper gear box if they decide to make one.

Disclaimer: I have not driven any of the cars I spoke about above, but it is just combined insight from the professionals like Jeremy Clarkson, Richard hammond, Chris Harris etc.

[MeganeTrophyGuy]

Originally Posted by Imola3

Great discussion gents, all I want to add is that I agree. I want a pure, raw drivers car. For the connection and experience you get when driving it. Ive always said that if I could afford a 458, that I would much rather buy a Noble M600. It has no drivers aids i.e. no ABS or Stability control, only traction control. 650hp twin turbo V8 in the middle of an all carbon fiber monocoque that weighs 2600 pounds and not to mention a manual 6 speed transmission. Its a car that is compared to the old Ferrari F40 which is very high praise. This all may be irrelevant because you guys are talking about cars in the 80k to 120k dollar range, not 300k. But I'm just making the point about the idea of the pure drivers car. In my eyes the closest modern car we can get to is the new GT3, or maybe an RS version with a proper gear box if they decide to make one.

Disclaimer: I have not driven any of the cars I spoke about above, but it is just combined insight from the professionals like Jeremy Clarkson, Richard hammond, Chris Harris etc.

Most of the cars I've purchased were ones that were claimed to be "drivers cars". Though none have been perfect, each has been one of the best in its category and very exciting and interesting to own (my 1999 E36 M3 one of the best RWD of its day, my2 Sti's in the mid 90s the best 4WD rally cars in their day, my 250hp Alfa GTA the top FWD of its day, my Megane RS Trophy by far the best FWD for at least 3 years running, and my Boxster S one of the best mid-engined cars ever made). My friend owns an Elise which I think is one of the purest driving machines I've ever been in but at 6'2" and a really bad left knee, ownership was out of the question. I hope and pray that the M4, too, will be a pure drivers car that does not put too much technology between the driver and the road. If so, I will be in an Austin Yellow one with the 19" black lightweight alloys in the summer of 2015

[Sparco]

Originally Posted by MeganeTrophyGuy

Most of the cars I've purchased were ones that were claimed to be "drivers cars". Though none have been perfect, each has been one of the best in its category and very exciting and interesting to own (my 1999 E36 M3 one of the best RWD of its day, my2 Sti's in the mid 90s the best 4WD rally cars in their day, my 250hp Alfa GTA the top FWD of its day, my Megane RS Trophy by far the best FWD for at least 3 years running, and my Boxster S one of the best mid-engined cars ever made). My friend owns an Elise which I think is one of the purest driving machines I've ever been in but at 6'2" and a really bad left knee, ownership was out of the question. I hope and pray that the M4, too, will be a pure drivers car that does not put too much technology between the driver and the road. If so, I will be in an Austin Yellow one with the 19" black lightweight alloys in the summer of 2015

Just saw the M4 in the flesh for the first time. I have to say the car looks the business, proportioned just right. It has a meaty look to it with 19s and ceramic brakes. I'm sure most of you have seen the car at the New York auto show by now. Mineral gray looks really nice and the carbon interior looks like it should, somewhat understated. The seats are very impressive, almost like a porsche sport seat. All in all, I'm impressed looks, and finish wise. Now will look to possibly build one and see how customers enjoy there first cars. Anyone out there one who manages to get there hands on the first few cars, would love to hear your thoughts.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Romo

^That`s the main reason for me make a change and go for the Cayman GTS.

I had the luck, opportunity and the right timing to buy a E82 1M, which is by far the best Bimmer I`ve ever driven. ( I can compare to; E46 M3, E92 M3, which are all supertankers compared to a 1M)
The F8X M is growing in size once again (Ok the weight has been put down to 1M territory), but the increased wheelbase won`t make it a very agile car IMHO

The M2 could be the best M as a E82 1M successor, but there are some question marks here;

1 probably it`s a 4IL (Source; Scott27)
2 the wait will take us to 2016

Now that is too long for me, also would like a 6IL.

Given these facts, the Cayman GTS could be the best alternative for now.

the M2 is definitely going to be an N55. Already registered as a prototype in testing. See the M2 forums. You are right about 2016 though!

[maxxxmagnum]

Originally Posted by Lups

I have written this before also, but you know here that a person is from europe, if they look like they are high while pumping gas. I for one grin like an idiot, it's so cheap I want to bathe in it.

If you haven't had a bath recently, you may want to check out Venezuela. They sell it for $0.06 per gallon.

[maxxxmagnum]

Originally Posted by Lups

The M4 starts at 120 490, 64 euros, which in America is 166 939,79 dollars. full leather is an option, for over five k. I won't even start on the rest.

So, who pockets the difference? There must be no drug dealers in Finland. After all, who would want to sell drugs when they can make so much money selling cars.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by maxxxmagnum

So, who pockets the difference? There must be no drug dealers in Finland. After all, who would want to sell drugs when they can make so much money selling cars.

Taxes. but hey, free education, healthcare, so on... This is the price. And everyone get's the good education. I hurts when buying over powered cars, you get the skills to utter total nonsense night after night in a forum.