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      08-12-2020, 08:16 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Nice writeup, glad you had a good time and sounds like quality instruction.

Developing lap to lap consistency first time out is definitely a challenge, let alone when there's rain and changing track conditions involved. That's really tough.

Nothing wrong with the cautious, gradual approach. Sure your instructors appreciated it.

It's one of the things I still enjoy most about performance driving vs. other "extreme" activities that require a make it or break it mentality. Performance driving should never feel crazy, although some corners test your cajones no matter how scientific you are about the process..

Already present as in pre-event? Sure sound like deposits, my man. Unfortunately, they don't just go away.
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Thanks for sharing your impressions

As for uneven pad deposits, track driving will only make it worse. The hot brake temperatures generated on track soften the pad material which results in the deposit, any existing high spots on the rotors from previous uneven deposit will cause additional accumulation at that location exacerbating the situation. The only way to wear down uneven pad deposit is with cold braking.
Thanks, guys, learned quite a bit from you and others reading through this section of the forum.

Yes, vibrations were present before the track day. The event made the issue twice as worse, though, and now when I am slowly coming to a stop, e.g. at the traffic lights, the braking force is so uneven that it makes my head rock forwards and backwards kinda like if I were pumping the brakes aggressively.

So what y'all say I shall do?

I have found a cheap new set of M Performance pads which I believe are RS29s, I could run those for a bit and see if they would scrub away the deposits? Rotors should still be fine in terms of their thickness, but I'd have to check that in detail.

I thought the brakes would clean up on the rainy 300-mile cruise home from the track. Since the vibrations are so present, I don't want to keep driving it too much and possibly damage some of the suspension components that are taking a beating.
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      08-12-2020, 09:56 AM   #618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
Thanks, guys, learned quite a bit from you and others reading through this section of the forum.

Yes, vibrations were present before the track day. The event made the issue twice as worse, though, and now when I am slowly coming to a stop, e.g. at the traffic lights, the braking force is so uneven that it makes my head rock forwards and backwards kinda like if I were pumping the brakes aggressively.

So what y'all say I shall do?

I have found a cheap new set of M Performance pads which I believe are RS29s, I could run those for a bit and see if they would scrub away the deposits? Rotors should still be fine in terms of their thickness, but I'd have to check that in detail.

I thought the brakes would clean up on the rainy 300-mile cruise home from the track. Since the vibrations are so present, I don't want to keep driving it too much and possibly damage some of the suspension components that are taking a beating.
As I posted earlier, you need cold braking to wear down the uneven deposits, and you need quite a lot of it. It might take several weeks of street driving (preferably city as it requires a lot of repetitive braking without putting much heat in the system) to wear it down, 300 miles of highway cruising wont do that. Using more abrasive performance pads as you suggest is indeed a good way to speed up the process.

In more rare and extreme cases, the uneven deposits could have created hot spots on the rotors that are hot enough to harden the rotor material in those spots, if that is the case new rotors are required. But as stated, it is quite rare.
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      08-12-2020, 10:15 AM   #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
I have dropped the throttle to sport from sport+ due to fighting for traction post-apex. I did like the ability to stab the throttle in sport+ and have immediate full-boost, but as I got more comfortable with the platform I found I needed better modulation in the first 1/3rd of the pedal.

I've also dropped the DCT transmission to S1. In S2 and S3 it would chirp the tires on the 3-4 shift every time. S1 feels a bit sluggish at times, but no tire chirping and hopefully gentler on the tires and drivetrain. Could be the GTS transmission tune is just stupid aggressive, but I don't think it was helping me at all.
If you need to tone it down that much to manage traction, there is something else you are not doing right. The sharpness and precision of the controls are key elements that make the F8X so enjoyable on track.

I have no problem managing the power delivery in Sport+ S3 DSC off when driving in the snow, so there’s no reason for it to be too sensitive on a dry track with R-comps. In Sport+ you do need to manage the throttle, you cannot just mash an go. In Sport, you can be more aggressive with the throttle because the programmed lag in the response does part of the throttle management for you. What I mostly dislike with Sport is the response lag on liftoff, which limits the ability to tuck the nose in to tighten the line when needed.

Yes, the shifts in S3 are pretty aggressive to maximize performance. It has to be said that S3 is only suitable with DSC off, even in MDM the DSC cuts back power in S3. If you use MDM, S2 is the better choice. S1 is really tuned for comfort. In S1, the downshifts are super sluggish with no rev match.
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      08-12-2020, 11:12 AM   #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As I posted earlier, you need cold braking to wear down the uneven deposits, and you need quite a lot of it. It might take several weeks of street driving (preferably city as it requires a lot of repetitive braking without putting much heat in the system) to wear it down, 300 miles of highway cruising wont do that. Using more abrasive performance pads as you suggest is indeed a good way to speed up the process.

In more rare and extreme cases, the uneven deposits could have created hot spots on the rotors that are hot enough to harden the rotor material in those spots, if that is the case new rotors are required. But as stated, it is quite rare.
Thanks!
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      08-12-2020, 11:15 AM   #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I have found a cheap new set of M Performance pads which I believe are RS29s, I could run those for a bit and see if they would scrub away the deposits? Rotors should still be fine in terms of their thickness, but I'd have to check that in detail.
Are M Performance pads RS29s? That would be a potential solution if yes

Repeat cold stops with the same pads that caused the deposits never worked for me, unfortunately. Possible it would have if the deposits were less severe.

Switch to a race pad + cold stops/bedding sessions is the only method I found that worked.

I know you tried to source and get fitted beforehand, but for future reference and those wondering about using stock pads on track, this is part of the reason why switching to a race pad -- even for novices -- is a good idea. This deposit situation is such a pain in the ass.
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      08-12-2020, 11:53 AM   #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Are M Performance pads RS29s? That would be a potential solution if yes

Repeat cold stops with the same pads that caused the deposits never worked for me, unfortunately. Possible it would have if the deposits were less severe.

Switch to a race pad + cold stops/bedding sessions is the only method I found that worked.

I know you tried to source and get fitted beforehand, but for future reference and those wondering about using stock pads on track, this is part of the reason why switching to a race pad -- even for novices -- is a good idea. This deposit situation is such a pain in the ass.
I would not recommend doing a bedding procedure as the whole point of bedding brakes is to put a pad transfer layer on the rotors (a nice even one). From my experience, a bedding procedure done on rotors that have uneven deposit will only make it worse.
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      08-12-2020, 12:14 PM   #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I would not recommend doing a bedding procedure as the whole point of bedding brakes is to put a pad transfer layer on the rotors (a nice even one). From my experience, a bedding procedure done on rotors that have uneven deposit will only make it worse.
I should have been more specific on process than cold stops/bedding sessions.

Cold stops with race pads to clean up, bedding sessions to "reset" the system, achieve what you detail.

Then again, defining exactly when cold stops become a bedding session is a challenge. Last time I went through this, a few hard "cold" stops in a row yielded much improvement. Couple rounds of that and was good to go. Race pad characteristics work in your favor here since it takes such substantial heat (a very intentional bedding session) to create a transfer layer.
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      08-12-2020, 12:22 PM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
I should have been more specific on process than cold stops/bedding sessions.

Cold stops with race pads to clean up, bedding sessions to "reset" the system, achieve what you detail.

Then again, defining exactly when cold stops become a bedding session is a challenge. Last time I went through this, a few hard "cold" stops in a row yielded much improvement. Couple rounds of that and was good to go. Race pad characteristics work in your favor here since it takes such substantial heat (a very intentional bedding session) to create a transfer layer.


When the sudder is gone, time for bedding.
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      08-12-2020, 12:35 PM   #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
I should have been more specific on process than cold stops/bedding sessions.

Cold stops with race pads to clean up, bedding sessions to "reset" the system, achieve what you detail.

Then again, defining exactly when cold stops become a bedding session is a challenge. Last time I went through this, a few hard "cold" stops in a row yielded much improvement. Couple rounds of that and was good to go. Race pad characteristics work in your favor here since it takes such substantial heat (a very intentional bedding session) to create a transfer layer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I would not recommend doing a bedding procedure as the whole point of bedding brakes is to put a pad transfer layer on the rotors (a nice even one). From my experience, a bedding procedure done on rotors that have uneven deposit will only make it worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post


When the sudder is gone, time for bedding.
Very helpful information, thank you both.

All this nonsense for some laps round a track! I'm trying to find whether there are some more track days in my country until the end of the summer, but it's looking pretty bleak.
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      08-12-2020, 03:59 PM   #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
If you need to tone it down that much to manage traction, there is something else you are not doing right. The sharpness and precision of the controls are key elements that make the F8X so enjoyable on track.

I have no problem managing the power delivery in Sport+ S3 DSC off when driving in the snow, so there’s no reason for it to be too sensitive on a dry track with R-comps. In Sport+ you do need to manage the throttle, you cannot just mash an go. In Sport, you can be more aggressive with the throttle because the programmed lag in the response does part of the throttle management for you. What I mostly dislike with Sport is the response lag on liftoff, which limits the ability to tuck the nose in to tighten the line when needed.

Yes, the shifts in S3 are pretty aggressive to maximize performance. It has to be said that S3 is only suitable with DSC off, even in MDM the DSC cuts back power in S3. If you use MDM, S2 is the better choice. S1 is really tuned for comfort. In S1, the downshifts are super sluggish with no rev match.
We'll see tomorrow, going out with fresh 295 square RRs instead of what I think were cooked NT01s. Admittedly sport+ was mostly workable with the OEM Cup 2s, outside of utilizing 2nd gear in two ~35mph corners. I'll be curious to see how the RRs fare. I suspect I'll stick with Sport, the mapping of sport+ feels like the 0-50% load target is in the first 25% of pedal travel, but that's the area where I need the most granularity.

It's been mentioned a few times that the tire chirps aren't healthy for the tires, you're inducing a rapid deceleration on the contact patch. I've only had 1-2 issues with S1 going into the same corner braking 140->70 and dropping 5th to 3rd, and I timed the 4-3 downshift poorly. Otherwise single-gear downshifts under threshhold braking in S1 have not caused any problems.
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      08-12-2020, 04:53 PM   #627
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Having a 6MT was no doubt my dream but it is definitely a considerable disadvantage at track. I might be spoiled if I ever get to drive DCT on track. I would happily leave it full auto and focus fully on diving into turns. For same reason I avoid downshifting as much as possible.

Also I wonder how much GTS's power level closes gap against the 500hp Porsches on straight line? For my 425hp they are just as fast as Z06s in going away in straight.
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      08-12-2020, 05:38 PM   #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
We'll see tomorrow, going out with fresh 295 square RRs instead of what I think were cooked NT01s. Admittedly sport+ was mostly workable with the OEM Cup 2s, outside of utilizing 2nd gear in two ~35mph corners. I'll be curious to see how the RRs fare. I suspect I'll stick with Sport, the mapping of sport+ feels like the 0-50% load target is in the first 25% of pedal travel, but that's the area where I need the most granularity.

It's been mentioned a few times that the tire chirps aren't healthy for the tires, you're inducing a rapid deceleration on the contact patch. I've only had 1-2 issues with S1 going into the same corner braking 140->70 and dropping 5th to 3rd, and I timed the 4-3 downshift poorly. Otherwise single-gear downshifts under threshhold braking in S1 have not caused any problems.
Tire chirps are terrible for the tires.

I track my CS with the throttle in Efficient and the dct in 1/3 per James' recommendation. But this is the internet, I'm sure it's common knowledge that the throttle has to be sport+ and the dct 3/3.
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      08-12-2020, 05:39 PM   #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen View Post
Having a 6MT was no doubt my dream but it is definitely a considerable disadvantage at track. I might be spoiled if I ever get to drive DCT on track. I would happily leave it full auto and focus fully on diving into turns. For same reason I avoid downshifting as much as possible.

Also I wonder how much GTS's power level closes gap against the 500hp Porsches on straight line? For my 425hp they are just as fast as Z06s in going away in straight.
The DCT CS is dead heat in the straights. I suppose the GTS reels them in
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      08-12-2020, 05:50 PM   #630
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Have you guys seen this video? Jörg Weidinger driving G82 M4 manual. His driving it in Sport+ looking he does heel and toe if it works same way as F8X. Personally I think the throttle setting is personal preference that suits to one's driving style and what they want to achieve though.



edit, added comment: the video might have been taken for a show purpose of all that heel and toes and we don't know what Weidinger really prefers. He might be using efficient or sport throttle with auto rev-match and might not even downshift to 2nd that often when he is not being videotaped. Also going to 5th gear could be a show.

For 6MT there is less freedom as rev matching is disabled with Sport+ throttle. I like sport+ and also I don't usually go down to 2nd gear so sport+ really helps on slow corners to bring up boost quickly.

Last edited by MyFragileHalogen; 08-12-2020 at 06:32 PM..
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      08-12-2020, 06:09 PM   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The DCT CS is dead heat in the straights. I suppose the GTS reels them in
That's cool! In the website below has some data (not sure about accuracy) that shows close 100-200kph and 100-140kph time against 476hp GT3; but a lot slower 80-120kph time for GTS.

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ml8uz863mop3

But perhaps 2018 and newer GT3 would be faster than the one above.
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      08-12-2020, 06:20 PM   #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Tire chirps are terrible for the tires.

I track my CS with the throttle in Efficient and the dct in 1/3 per James' recommendation. But this is the internet, I'm sure it's common knowledge that the throttle has to be sport+ and the dct 3/3.
I’ve seen you drive and have respect for your skill, but I am surprised by your comment. I was once stuck driving in Efficient while on track and found it atrocious, the lag was terrible and all the power seemed to be in the last tenth of the pedal movement, making it very difficult to modulate. I managed to make my fun pretending I wad driving an 1980’s turbo car with all the lag, but I really prefer the precision offered by Sport+.

As for the DCT in S3 with R-comps, I might get an occasional chirp on 2-3 upshift, but never in higher gears, and rarely need 2nd on the tracks I frequent. So “tire chirping” has never been an issue for me. I am curious, have you ever upshifted mid corner in S3? You’d be amazed, the DCT knows you’re cornering and will execute a butter smooth upshift. It’s really amazing. I find the shifts, especially the downshifts super laggy in S1.

This comes from a guy that uses Efficient and S1 on the daily drive, I’ve got nothing to prove on the internet, just share my experience...
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      08-12-2020, 06:51 PM   #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I’ve seen you drive and have respect for your skill, but I am surprised by your comment. I was once stuck driving in Efficient while on track and found it atrocious, the lag was terrible and all the power seemed to be in the last tenth of the pedal movement, making it very difficult to modulate. I managed to make my fun pretending I wad driving an 1980’s turbo car with all the lag, but I really prefer the precision offered by Sport+.

As for the DCT in S3 with R-comps, I might get an occasional chirp on 2-3 upshift, but never in higher gears, and rarely need 2nd on the tracks I frequent. So “tire chirping” has never been an issue for me. I am curious, have you ever upshifted mid corner in S3? You’d be amazed, the DCT knows you’re cornering and will execute a butter smooth upshift. It’s really amazing. I find the shifts, especially the downshifts super laggy in S1.

This comes from a guy that uses Efficient and S1 on the daily drive, I’ve got nothing to prove on the internet, just share my experience...
Midcorner shifts for sure are one of the joys of DCT trannies!
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      08-13-2020, 07:05 AM   #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
Admittedly sport+ was mostly workable with the OEM Cup 2s
And those OE dubs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen View Post
That's cool! In the website below has some data (not sure about accuracy) that shows close 100-200kph and 100-140kph time against 476hp GT3; but a lot slower 80-120kph time for GTS.

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ml8uz863mop3

But perhaps 2018 and newer GT3 would be faster than the one above.
Can't quite stay neck and neck with .2's on the straights. But it's close.

Manual adds another layer of difficulty to the process, especially learning a new track, but once you have shift points and corner gearing sorted it's not much of a disadvantage. Especially nowadays with the auto-blips. Enjoy the 6MT.

Can't bring myself to run DCT in auto on track. Just doesn't seem right... and despite what I've been told by many who run full auto still doubt the car's ability to always know what gear is optimum for the situation.

I'll try it in the GTS one of these days to see how close the car is to my timing and gear selections. Suspect it might try to kill me, though.
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      08-13-2020, 08:36 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Can't bring myself to run DCT in auto on track. Just doesn't seem right... and despite what I've been told by many who run full auto still doubt the car's ability to always know what gear is optimum for the situation.

I'll try it in the GTS one of these days to see how close the car is to my timing and gear selections. Suspect it might try to kill me, though.
Haha I don't trust the machines yet either!
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      08-13-2020, 12:32 PM   #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen View Post
Have you guys seen this video? Jörg Weidinger driving G82 M4 manual. His driving it in Sport+ looking he does heel and toe if it works same way as F8X. Personally I think the throttle setting is personal preference that suits to one's driving style and what they want to achieve though.



edit, added comment: the video might have been taken for a show purpose of all that heel and toes and we don't know what Weidinger really prefers. He might be using efficient or sport throttle with auto rev-match and might not even downshift to 2nd that often when he is not being videotaped. Also going to 5th gear could be a show.

For 6MT there is less freedom as rev matching is disabled with Sport+ throttle. I like sport+ and also I don't usually go down to 2nd gear so sport+ really helps on slow corners to bring up boost quickly.
Enjoyed the video! I don't know if it's my size 13 feet, lack of ankle flexibility and agility, lack of coordination, or (most likely) the full combination of those things but I struggle mightily to heel-toe like that.
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      08-13-2020, 01:01 PM   #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Tire chirps are terrible for the tires.

I track my CS with the throttle in Efficient and the dct in 1/3 per James' recommendation. But this is the internet, I'm sure it's common knowledge that the throttle has to be sport+ and the dct 3/3.
A sales associate at Carbahn Autowerks told me that Steve Dinan also tracks his cars in Efficient mode.

Last edited by drroc; 08-13-2020 at 04:07 PM..
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      08-13-2020, 02:27 PM   #638
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Speaking of brake cooling, have you guys noticed that only the outer part of the calipers is changing color (i.e. turning green)? Inner side is almost the same original blue.

This does seem to imply that the outher side is not getting enough cooling (or the same as the inside at any rate), and I don't see what can be done about that.
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