I'm not happy with BMW's direction for the next generation - What is an alternative?

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I said it on my IG post and I'll say it again, this is what a lot of us are afraid of.

But the problem is, as minn19 already put it, if sales go well for these cars with this ugly Alfa Romeo esque front design then they won't stop changing it. The way I see it is, a major company like this won't get the hint until they see the damage in their sales figures, that is the only way to tell BMW and that dumb ass of a design team thinking this is a good idea.

If Porsche did something insane like changing the entire 911 design up for the 993, they will get absolute trashed by everyone. I don't think we, as BMW M fans, is making enough of a noise for BMW to rethink. But, at least with the 4er side is concerned, they are doomed or would like it.

My next car would be a 911 or 718 at this point. It's already set in my head, my decision is weather I can keep my M3 or not because I am definitely won't be touching the G80/G82 at this point. Losing the M-DCT already is a big no for me, going down this front end design is a hell no.

I can bitch a lot about Porsche (and believe me I have a lot to complain about) but at least they are the decency to not change up such an iconic design for mainstream sale purposes.

I agree with both you and Minn. If sales increase or are on par with this generation then these HORRIBLE "designs" will continue. I don't think the powers that be on this forum appreciated my desire for this nonsense to fail miserably. To be honest I wasn't that sure about the G8x anyway. Like you I love the M-DCT and shit canning it for a crapola ZF8 is a bad idea. I was going to go manual on the G8x that is before I saw the buck tooth "situation".

I've always wanted a 911 and maybe this is the time for me. My little guy can still fit in the rear "seats" for the next few years. I've seen people fit kids seats back there. I'm not that well versed in Porsche chassis codes. 991.1, 991.2 etc etc.... I'm gonna have to read up

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

I agree with both you and Minn. If sales increase or are on par with this generation then these HORRIBLE "designs" will continue. I don't think the powers that be on this forum appreciated my desire for this nonsense to fail miserably. To be honest I wasn't that sure about the G8x anyway. Like you I love the M-DCT and shit canning it for a crapola ZF8 is a bad idea. I was going to go manual on the G8x that is before I saw the buck tooth "situation".

I've always wanted a 911 and maybe this is the time for me. My little guy can still fit in the rear "seats" for the next few years. I've seen people fit kids seats back there. I'm not that well versed in Porsche chassis codes. 991.1, 991.2 etc etc.... I'm gonna have to read up

I'm lucky where my mother's side of the family are car people so I have deep connections with a Porsche dealership because of it. Absolutely, most of my close friends are BMW people but handful of them already want a 911 after their Ms.

I'm not overly familiar with the chassis codes either but from what I know of it, the 991.1 and 991.2 are only there due to the engine problems with the 991.1 GT3 and GT3RS. It was such a huge issue Porsche basically replaced the entire engine for all 991.1 GT3 and RS, given them 10 year warranty on top of it.

But they, Porsche, wasn't too certain still so they basically redid the entire Flat Six and released it, so the ones with the redesigned engines are 991.2 while the old ones are 991.1. The resale value of the 991.1 GT3/RS are very low because of that, while the .2 aren't hit as hard.

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by NYG

If the C8Z06 ends up being what we're all anticipating, that'll be the ticket.

If you've got the funds then maybe it's time to upgrade to a Porsche.

Agreed though, I won't even consider the next gen. The F8X is miles away from being perfect but it still has a little bit of character that makes it appealing. Ford and Chevy make better sports cars than BMW at the moment. Let that soak in. I wish BMW luck in their endeavors making mediocre commuters with M badges all over them. They won't and will never compete with MB in comfort and luxury.

Realistically, we're all expecting too much of BMW. They're still a major step down from Porsche in every category.

BMW M cars and Porsche "sport cars" are in completely different categories IMO. Why everyone compares them head to head is beyond me. Try taking your family for a drive in a 911.

[dezzracer]

Everybody so quick to leave the BMW brand lately. Or at least threatening too. Can't believe how many people on this forum jizz over P cars. Go buy one then and move over to over to the country club forums. The G series M cars are still a year out. Wait till they are here. Bet you will want one. Personally I just can't picture myself in a Porsche anymore than I can picture myself in a Corvette. They are great cars just not my cup of tea. That's why I'm here.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I'm lucky where my mother's side of the family are car people so I have deep connections with a Porsche dealership because of it. Absolutely, most of my close friends are BMW people but handful of them already want a 911 after their Ms.

I'm not overly familiar with the chassis codes either but from what I know of it, the 991.1 and 991.2 are only there due to the engine problems with the 991.1 GT3 and GT3RS. It was such a huge issue Porsche basically replaced the entire engine for all 991.1 GT3 and RS, given them 10 year warranty on top of it.

But they, Porsche, wasn't too certain still so they basically redid the entire Flat Six and released it, so the ones with the redesigned engines are 991.2 while the old ones are 991.1. The resale value of the 991.1 GT3/RS are very low because of that, while the .2 aren't hit as hard.

Thanks. It's unfortunate that I'm contemplating Leaving the brand and abandoning ///M as I really like what they have been about all these years. Sporty, Good Looking Daily drivers that can be taken to the track and grocery store on the same day.

Good looking is GONE if the renders and leaked pics are truly real. Abominations.

[Damage Inc]

If you like 4 door sports cars go drive the Giulia QF. AR built a car targeted directly at the enthusiast. The steering suspension and road feel in that car is unbelievable for a 4 door sedan, but never crashes like the M3 or my 535i. It can be a little hardcore for DD however that's what I like about it. 99% of people will not like it as its a bit too "raw". Which is what M cars used to be.

I applaud Alfa for not watering down the car for higher sales. It comes stock with P Zero Corsa's lol. It means business. My mom will not want to drive it unlike my M3.

Subconsciously maybe I rewarded Alfa with my business over another M3 for those reasons.

While M is no longer my "go to car" like it used to be, I will consider one for the right situation. I'll check out the next gen.

If I'm honest, M isn't as cool as it was 10 to 15 years ago since is super diluted. And gotten super popular. Not many know about the Alfa QF clover, which is appealing to me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I said it on my IG post and I'll say it again, this is what a lot of us are afraid of.

But the problem is, as minn19 already put it, if sales go well for these cars with this ugly Alfa Romeo esque front design then they won't stop changing it. The way I see it is, a major company like this won't get the hint until they see the damage in their sales figures, that is the only way to tell BMW and that dumb ass of a design team thinking this is a good idea.

If Porsche did something insane like changing the entire 911 design up for the 993, they will get absolute trashed by everyone. I don't think we, as BMW M fans, is making enough of a noise for BMW to rethink. But, at least with the 4er side is concerned, they are doomed or would like it.

My next car would be a 911 or 718 at this point. It's already set in my head, my decision is whether I can keep my M3 or not because I am definitely won't be touching the G80/G82 at this point. Losing the M-DCT already is a big no for me, going down tihis front end design is a hell no.

I can bitch a lot about Porsche (and believe me I have a lot to complain about) but at least they have the decency to not change up such an iconic design for mainstream sale purposes.

The utter irony of all of this is, I don't mind the X3M or the X4M. Both are SUVs for fuck sakes. What does that tell you about BMW's direction?

FYI, as a tidbit, the 911 993 already exists and dates back to the mid-ninetees. It was the last of the air cooled 911.

Porsche chassis numbering has no logic

And Porsche did a rather unpopular design change with the 996 when they changed the shape of the headlights. They reverted back with the 997.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

If you like 4 door sports cars go drive the Giulia QF. AR built a car targeted directly at the enthusiast. The steering suspension and road feel in that car is unbelievable for a 4 door sedan, but never crashes like the M3 or my 535i. It can be a little hardcore for DD however that's what I like about it. 99% of people will not like it as its a bit too "raw". Which is what M cars used to be.

I applaud Alfa for not watering down the car for higher sales. It comes stock with P Zero Corsa's lol. It means business. My mom will not want to drive it unlike my M3.

Subconsciously maybe I rewarded Alfa with my business over another M3 for those reasons.

While M is no longer my "go to car" like it used to be, I will consider one for the right situation. I'll check out the next gen.

If I'm honest, M isn't as cool as it was 10 to 15 years ago since is super diluted. And gotten super popular. Not many know about the Alfa QF clover, which is appealing to me.

The Alfa Giulia QF is however just not good enough for the track. As a fervent track hobbyist, the Giulia QV does not cut it for me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

I'm not that well versed in Porsche chassis codes. 991.1, 991.2 etc etc.... I'm gonna have to read up

Porsche chassis codes are a tough act to follow, as they don't seem to follow much logic:

993 Last of the air cooled
996 First water cooled
997 - 997.2 facelift (the .2 is not an official designation)
991 - 991.2 facelift (the .2 is not an official designation)
992

[No Boost]

If they banned everyone who's complained about the new grilles, this site would be like a deserted ghost town. There's an abundance of universal hate towards them that's only growing.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

If they banned everyone who's complained about the new grilles, this site would be like a deserted ghost town. There's an abundance of universal hate towards them that's only growing.

They (he) said I was trolling. That would make this one big troll site

[nbennettksu]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I said it on my IG post and I'll say it again, this is what a lot of us are afraid of.

But the problem is, as minn19 already put it, if sales go well for these cars with this ugly Alfa Romeo esque front design then they won't stop changing it. The way I see it is, a major company like this won't get the hint until they see the damage in their sales figures, that is the only way to tell BMW and that dumb ass of a design team thinking this is a good idea.

If Porsche did something insane like changing the entire 911 design up for the 993, they will get absolute trashed by everyone. I don't think we, as BMW M fans, is making enough of a noise for BMW to rethink. But, at least with the 4er side is concerned, they are doomed or would like it.

My next car would be a 911 or 718 at this point. It's already set in my head, my decision is whether I can keep my M3 or not because I am definitely won't be touching the G80/G82 at this point. Losing the M-DCT already is a big no for me, going down this front end design is a hell no.

I can bitch a lot about Porsche (and believe me I have a lot to complain about) but at least they have the decency to not change up such an iconic design for mainstream sale purposes.

The utter irony of all of this is, I don't mind the X3M or the X4M. Both are SUVs for fuck sakes. What does that tell you about BMW's direction?

Acura felt the hit when they went to that awful shield grill a few years back. It has since sparked them to build really nice looking vehicles, just no power and I feel like not even close to comparison with these cars.

I would say BMW is more on track with the KIA Opima front end 🤪 compared to Alfa

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Porsche chassis codes are a tough act to follow, as they don't seem to follow much logic:

993 Last of the air cooled
996 First water cooled
997 - 997.2 facelift (the .2 is not an official designation)
991 - 991.2 facelift (the .2 is not an official designation)
992

Thanks. Out of curiosity what do you think of BMWs new "design" direction?

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Thanks. Out of curiosity what do you think of BMWs new "design" direction?

Before the refresh, the 991.1 GT3/RS engines are 3.8L Flat Six. You can see that on the GT3 wing indicating this. On the side of the wing area, it says 3.8. The refreshed, new engines in the 991.2 GT3/RS are actually 4.0L Flat Six.

Yeah I'm still confused with the chassis codes for Porsche. Least BMW is easy to follow lol.

[TR930]

That 2020 Audi RS6 Wagon looks pretty damn interesting....

[mjposner]

Comparing new Porsche 911 and BMW M3/M4 fails to take into account the price differential. A 2020 loaded M4 comp with dct, carbon ceramic brakes and all options is $90k (21k in options). A 2020 Carrera base plus leather seats abd ceramic brakes is $118,720 (23k in options). Not the same class.

In the used category the M3/M4, thanks to depreciation and obsession about 911 is even a bigger winner. A CPO 2018 911 Carrera locally to me is $94,911. A CPO 18 M3 is $69,848. So is a 911 30% better than an M3/M4? If you need a bigger trunk, back seat that is useable, and better tech, then no, for better handling and lighter weight then yes.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by mjposner

Comparing new Porsche 911 and BMW M3/M4 fails to take into account the price differential. A 2020 loaded M4 comp with dct, carbon ceramic brakes and all options is $90k (21k in options). A 2020 Carrera base plus leather seats abd ceramic brakes is $118,720 (23k in options). Not the same class.

In the used category the M3/M4, thanks to depreciation and obsession about 911 is even a bigger winner. A CPO 2018 911 Carrera locally to me is $94,911. A CPO 18 M3 is $69,848. So is a 911 30% better than an M3/M4? If you need a bigger trunk, back seat that is useable, and better tech, then no, for better handling and lighter weight then yes.

Spot on. I always chuckle when I see people say things like bmw is losing its way guess I'll get a Porsche now. I mean a 911 is considerably more expensive than an m3 and in a different class of vehicle. If one could simply afford a 911 off the bat you wouldn't even bother with the m3.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by alscks0414

IMHO, autonomous is yet far to be 100% legal and compliant on the road. Technology will get there anytime soon but all laws and insurance related stuff is not going to allow this to be real at least in next 10 years. Well... thats my thought. However, I do know that all makers are going towards hybrid and electric.

Totally agree. We are quite far away from truly autonomous vehicles. Even if the tech gets there, the AI necessary to make decisions like do I hit the car that cut me off or do I swerve and hit another car to my right? Do I hit the pedestrian that stepped off the curb in front of me or do I swerve and ram a wall that may seriously injury the driver?

I don't think humans will agree or be totally comfortable allowing AI to make these decisions for many more years so don't expect level 5 autonomous to happen any time soon. It probably won't happen until the vast majority of cars are able to network w/ each other and actively avoid hitting each other. Even then, it won't be able to predict and avoid stupid pedestrians, skateboarders, bicyclists, motorcyclists, etc.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Spot on. I always chuckle when I see people say things like bmw is losing its way guess I'll get a Porsche now. I mean a 911 is considerably more expensive than an m3 and in a different class of vehicle. If one could simply afford a 911 off the bat you wouldn't even bother with the m3.

So true. I might be able to stretch and get a base 911 or even a 911S, but none are available, nor would I want one, without at least another $20K to $30K in options. Then, Porsche doesn't have great lease deals on top of that and no free maintenance.

So, to make the switch to Porsche would mean spending about double of what my M3 costs.

Glad I am one of the few who actually likes the new gigantic front grille and I think the concept 4 looks outstanding. I'm looking forward to the next gen M4.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Spot on. I always chuckle when I see people say things like bmw is losing its way guess I'll get a Porsche now. I mean a 911 is considerably more expensive than an m3 and in a different class of vehicle. If one could simply afford a 911 off the bat you wouldn't even bother with the m3.

The thing is, you know what you are getting with Porsche.

Those whom own one, know what Porsche will charge you for it. It is one of my major complaints about it. You cannot deny that BMW's priorities have shifted in the past few years due to world economics. Hell, almost all car companies at this point has.

My family(s) have own multiple Porsches and BMWs. It isn't new to us and I know just how fucking expensive they are. There is a reason why I prefer BMW if at all possible.

There are enough of us who need the "super" sedans because it is a good in between. 911/718 are pure sport cars and it comes with sacrifices. It's all on your priorities.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Before the refresh, the 991.1 GT3/RS engines are 3.8L Flat Six. You can see that on the GT3 wing indicating this. On the side of the wing area, it says 3.8. The refreshed, new engines in the 991.2 GT3/RS are actually 4.0L Flat Six.

Yeah I'm still confused with the chassis codes for Porsche. Least BMW is easy to follow lol.

Porsche pushes the envelope on the 991.1 GT3 and had some issues which were not that widespread. No more so than slim crank hubs on f8xs. They did right by customers though.

The 991.2 GT3/RS is basically the GT3 cup engine.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

So true. I might be able to stretch and get a base 911 or even a 911S, but none are available, nor would I want one, without at least another $20K to $30K in options. Then, Porsche doesn't have great lease deals on top of that and no free maintenance.

So, to make the switch to Porsche would mean spending about double of what my M3 costs.

Glad I am one of the few who actually likes the new gigantic front grille and I think the concept 4 looks outstanding. I'm looking forward to the next gen M4.

Porsche does give you the first service free and are you know what you are getting into when you enter their world. Porsches doesn’t subsidize and financially engineer leases like BMW does (inflated residuals and low money factors). Usually Porsche has strong residuals but high money factor (like 7-8% APR).
BMWs free maintenance has deviated quite a bit from what it used to be.