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      08-21-2013, 11:33 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Very, very well said. The epitome of technical superiority is a car that drives itself and uses sensors and GPS to calculate perfect gears, speed, entry and exit angles, I.e racing lines etc. How fun is that compared to a spirited old fashioned carting race with zero computing?
Indeed. The purpose of street driving is not to get to your location as fast as possible, it's utility first and fun second. Flicking a switch on my steering wheel while putting along, at the same speed as that POS Geo Metro next to me, is automotive ennui. I buy what I buy so that I can enjoy driving at legal or near legal speeds, while I get to where I need to be. To that end, a 6mt provides an experience that a DCT never can.


The only time I dislike driving a manual is when driving in traffic. But, buying any M to drive in traffic is like buying Bulgogi beef and cooking it well done. You've totally missed the point. If traffic becomes a problem, I avoid the traffic.
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      08-21-2013, 11:33 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by rjd598 View Post
Why so much hate on the exhaust? It sounds pretty good to me and as in good I mean you can actually HEAR it. We have never had good oem mufflers on the m3. I bet this one will sound somewhere near the 335is exhaust which is simply amazing. For all the people complaining or worried about the weak exhaust don't worry because you would have slapped on a new muffler anyway.
With all due respect, I don't think you know what a good exhaust note sounds like.
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      08-21-2013, 11:34 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
Even if the rumor that DCT (still a slushbox automatic) will come to the US and not the manual is false, I'm officially done with BMW. I waited for the 4 series...looks ugly and the performance is really nothing great. Lot of other cars in that category/price range that have become far better driving machines and more attractive/aggressive. M4 without manual is not an M. BMW has officially sold out. Good riddance. They are getting uglier and uglier, more overpriced, and less engaging.
I agree that that aesthetics, design and materials leave a lot to be desired on the F series chassis but man, the DCT is absolutely not a slushbox.
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      08-21-2013, 11:36 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I guess I can never resist this topic...
  1. A DCT is not an automatic, it is automatable.
  2. The design, engineering, construction and most importantly the FEEL of the DCT is like a manual. I think most (or certainly at least many) who criticize DCT have not driven an M3 through the gears in S5 mode shifting at redline.
  3. When you have the DCT in manual mode, it simply is not an automatic, you choose every single shift up and down, except those downshifts while slowing that prevent an engine stall.
  4. DCT in manual mode is very involving and satisfying. You still shift, just on the steering wheel rather than on the tranny tunnel. Oh wait, you can do that too. Who cares about the clutch pedal...
  5. I seriously applaud Porsche for their decision for PDK (dual clutch) only for the hardcore GT3. Its the best choice by far because of it performance while allowing full manual control over shifting. I wish BMW had the balls to do that same. Less expensive DCTs would be one result.
  6. Shifting a traditional manual is clearly not the only way to be involved with and in touch with ones driving. Do you think F1 folks miss the clutch pedal or need to be "more involved"... There is plenty left to do in high performance driving other than worry about the clutch pedal.
Nice defense of the DCT, but you're missing a few key components...least of which is your left leg is still dead weight with DCT. How in the world is that as, or more, engaging? Answer: it is not.
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      08-21-2013, 11:40 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
I agree that that aesthetics, design and materials leave a lot to be desired on the F series chassis but man, the DCT is absolutely not a slushbox.
No third pedal = slushbox in terms of driving engagement.
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      08-21-2013, 11:41 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I'm sorry, but you are completely clueless. It's not about being 'cool' to own a manual, but instead the enjoyment, the engagement, and the control one has with a manual transmission.
+1000
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      08-21-2013, 11:46 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
Even if the rumor that DCT (still a slushbox automatic) will come to the US and not the manual is false, I'm officially done with BMW. I waited for the 4 series...looks ugly and the performance is really nothing great. Lot of other cars in that category/price range that have become far better driving machines and more attractive/aggressive. M4 without manual is not an M. BMW has officially sold out. Good riddance. They are getting uglier and uglier, more overpriced, and less engaging.
I'm sure BMW will miss you...ok, they're over it now.
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      08-21-2013, 11:47 PM   #96
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When I walk across a parking lot to go into a store or the mall, and I spot a BMW, I make it a point to walk over and see what type of gearbox it has. Nine times out of ten, it's an auto or DCT and I think to myself, what a loser.

Call me childish, call me close minded, call me what you want. IMO, if you don't drive a manual gearbox, if you don't suffer with the car, if you don't feel what the car is doing, and make decisions for the car -- like when to clutch in, when to feather, when to rev match, then you aren't a real enthusiast. And you aren't one because you don't want to be bothered with the things that require effort, diligence, and skill to perfect. You just want to get where ever it is you're going and look the part when you pull into the parking lot.

Obviously my opinion is harsh and one sided, and I've grossly generalized. But, that's how I feel, and it is what it is.

If BMW leaves behind the manual transmission I will just buy used, older model BMW's until I can no longer drive.
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      08-21-2013, 11:55 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
Even if the rumor that DCT (still a slushbox automatic) will come to the US and not the manual is false, ...
You sir are completely incorrect on this. A slushbox is a traditional automatic transmission with both planetary gears and more importantly a torque converter that uses fluid coupling rather than direct clutch coupling to gradually engage the power to the wheels. The feeling of disconnectedness (and smoothness) that comes from this is the reason they are called slushboxes. This is not what DCT is, not how it works and not how it feels, period.
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      08-21-2013, 11:56 PM   #98
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Seriously, in a few years most people's commuter cars will probably be driverless anyway. Taken to an extreme, can be programmed to go around a track faster than any human can.....it's a slippery slope and hopefully we won't completely succumb to robo-world!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
Indeed. The purpose of street driving is not to get to your location as fast as possible, it's utility first and fun second. Flicking a switch on my steering wheel while putting along, at the same speed as that POS Geo Metro next to me, is automotive ennui. I buy what I buy so that I can enjoy driving at legal or near legal speeds, while I get to where I need to be. To that end, a 6mt provides an experience that a DCT never can.


The only time I dislike driving a manual is when driving in traffic. But, buying any M to drive in traffic is like buying Bulgogi beef and cooking it well done. You've totally missed the point. If traffic becomes a problem, I avoid the traffic.
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      08-21-2013, 11:58 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
No third pedal = slushbox in terms of driving engagement.
It's a big stretch. The term slushbox refers to the fluid coupling employed by the torque converter inside an automatic transmission. A DCT has no torque converter so there is no "slush". Shifting a DCT certainly requires less involvement than a true manual transmission, but there's no real justification for specifically claiming it is "still a slushbox".
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      08-21-2013, 11:59 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
Indeed. The purpose of street driving is not to get to your location as fast as possible, it's utility first and fun second. Flicking a switch on my steering wheel while putting along, at the same speed as that POS Geo Metro next to me, is automotive ennui. I buy what I buy so that I can enjoy driving at legal or near legal speeds, while I get to where I need to be. To that end, a 6mt provides an experience that a DCT never can.


The only time I dislike driving a manual is when driving in traffic. But, buying any M to drive in traffic is like buying Bulgogi beef and cooking it well done. You've totally missed the point. If traffic becomes a problem, I avoid the traffic.
I think you and I might have different definitions of what "traffic" is certainly what heavy traffic is. Heavy traffic stretches from Tijuana to Ventura County including everything in between for hours in the morning, hours in the evening and sometimes all day on the weekends. When it comes to this kind of stop and go traffic the DCT is 95% as good as the best automatic. Why you'd want to bother with a MT in such a scenario is a bit beyond belief to me. Of course, to each their own...
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      08-21-2013, 11:59 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The English Guy View Post
We won't miss manual M's.........discuss

Debate: Why the ultimate driving machine is actually improved and defined by paddle shifted gearboxes

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=28276
Just an article I saw and thought was relevant to this thread, not my opinion
I disagree completely, I think the E9x M3 is infinitely better with a manual transmission even if the shifter action is notchy (especially when cold). I definitely regret getting my 335is with DCT and I always have a little less fun in DCT M3s.
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      08-22-2013, 12:10 AM   #102
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DCT/DSG/PDK is absolutely fine in terms of driving involvement. The only problem I would say is the durability. I really hate the shift on old (well, let's say 2-3 years old) dual clutch gearbox.
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      08-22-2013, 12:11 AM   #103
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If the new M4 or M3 doesnt hit the states with a manual transmission, then I won't look at a 3 or 4 series ever again. To come in only automatic is pathetic even with changing times. Two pedals is for X5s.

It is truly possible that it will hit the US in ONLY automatic/dct regardless of what any of us think. Also the picture of a manual can mean only Europe models. You never know.
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      08-22-2013, 12:12 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuggerat89 View Post
Nine times out of ten, it's an auto or DCT and I think to myself, what a loser.
We inderstand because that's what the other nine of us think when we see a car with a New Jersey license plate.


I'm kidding of course. But I'll bet the expression on your face was priceless for that moment when you first reacted

In all seriousness, try to refrain from making things personal, please.
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      08-22-2013, 12:19 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
With all due respect, I don't think you know what a good exhaust note sounds like.
Let me guess you're not a turbo fan? Just kidding but I'm surprised you wouldn't stand up for your own 335i's exhaust. You have to take note of what a v8 exhaust sounds like and compare them to other v8 exhausts. Same with v10, v12, inline 6, turbo, and the other engines. I say the 335is is brilliant..it doesn't mean I think the mc stradale is shit. On the contraire it's brilliant as well but you can't just take every single exhaust and compare them all at once. Otherwise everything would live up to the standard of an f1 car or Lamborghini. The reality is that all the m3 models have had not up to par exhausts. Get something aftermarket and they sing whereas a company like amg will give you something great out of the box. I bet that this next gen will sound better than the previous ones. Just my opinion though

Last edited by rjd598; 08-22-2013 at 12:27 AM..
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      08-22-2013, 12:23 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Endless619 View Post
It is truly possible that it will hit the US in ONLY automatic/dct regardless of what any of us think.
Infintesimally. Just as it possible it will be a four cylinder diesel hybrid and have optional pink pinstriped interior.

Quote:
Also the picture of a manual can mean only Europe models. You never know.
Not when the M5/M6 have a manual transmission on offer in the US but not in Europe.
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      08-22-2013, 12:29 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
Nice defense of the DCT, but you're missing a few key components...least of which is your left leg is still dead weight with DCT. How in the world is that as, or more, engaging? Answer: it is not.
Specifically with regards to shifting no it's not more engaging but it also is not significantly less. With regards to the overall experience of driving it simply allows more (of our limited) mental bandwidth to be consumed on things computers can't quite do as well as we can such as corner set up and entry, foreaft and side to side car balancing, throttle steering, perfect braking and trail braking, choosing the best lines, etc.

With DCT one can indded use the left leg! For braking! Not quite yet a skill I have mastered but it's certainly possible and there are some subtle benefits. Even if you don't do that I find DCT plenty plenty engaging. In the manual mode, again, one decides the point of every up and every down shift. That's not different than with a MT. When attempting to go very fast in a MT car how often does one really need to do anything with the clutch except operate it as fast as possible? It's exceptionally rare. In rally or offroad (and I've done plenty of motocross and off road motorcycling) the use of the clutch is way more critical and I'd simply never want a DCT in such an environment. There it is hands down too much loss of control. In a car, at the drag strip or on a road coarse, it's just not a significant or consequential loss.

As a thought experiment one should imagine with DCT that the pull of the lever operates the clutch and the release of the level operates the shifter. Now technically it does not work that way, but it easily could be programmed to do so. Then I am operating both the clutch and shifter. How is that not a manual transmission? Oh yes, the throw of the lever is too short, oh and the lever is too easy to pull, oh yeah and you can't slip the clutch it is only open or closed, oh yeah and you don't have to use a leg, oh yeah and the level is electronic no mechanical. Sorry but those arguments are entirely weak sauce.

Before the M-DCT I too was a lifelong MT guy, every car I've ever had (and I tracked quite a few of them) was MT. Sure rowing the gears and stomping the foot is mildly entertaining but it just isn't significant enough to worry about it being gone. I think for many pro MT/anti DCT it's an issue of pride and a feeling of superiority over all of those who only know how to drive an automatic. Just like with losing points and distributors, hand crank starting and lap (only) belts the days of the MT are pretty well gone. Are we less in touch with our cars because starting them takes no cursing and sweat, perhaps because many systems have become maintenance free? Maybe we need to get rid of all of our acoustic and NVH treatments so we can really hear and feel every rumble and roar of the car. Surely that will make us more "in touch". Maybe we can also go with no air conditioning because it saps precious crank power and add unnecessary weight? To all of those I think not and neither do you, MT fan or not.

Thank you again Porsche for the bravery in the decision for PDK only in the GT3. I am seriously thinking about ending my good long run of M cars for something new along this line. No not because of this bold transmission decision, but I still applaud the decision. I wouldn't own a car that did not have a dual clutch option.
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      08-22-2013, 12:32 AM   #108
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I just don't understand why BMW would do this? Check the stats, the forums, people WANT 6MT... I don't see the marketing strategy here at all...
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      08-22-2013, 12:37 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
I'm sure BMW will miss you...ok, they're over it now.
So am I. Enjoy your watered down brand

Last edited by thebmw; 08-22-2013 at 12:56 AM..
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      08-22-2013, 12:39 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuggerat89 View Post
When I walk across a parking lot to go into a store or the mall, and I spot a BMW, I make it a point to walk over and see what type of gearbox it has. Nine times out of ten, it's an auto or DCT and I think to myself, what a loser.

Call me childish, call me close minded, call me what you want. IMO, if you don't drive a manual gearbox, if you don't suffer with the car, if you don't feel what the car is doing, and make decisions for the car -- like when to clutch in, when to feather, when to rev match, then you aren't a real enthusiast. And you aren't one because you don't want to be bothered with the things that require effort, diligence, and skill to perfect. You just want to get where ever it is you're going and look the part when you pull into the parking lot.

Obviously my opinion is harsh and one sided, and I've grossly generalized. But, that's how I feel, and it is what it is.

If BMW leaves behind the manual transmission I will just buy used, older model BMW's until I can no longer drive.
Good for you for speaking your mind. I agree with you. Those who buy automatic BMWs should just get a Lexus...or a Camry...while they are at it.
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