M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

At first I thought I might sell my Porsche to get one of these but there's pretty much no way I will do that. More likely I'll get the non performance awd version to replace my current EV.

That's an interesting conclusion given you earlier statement:

Go Base rwd or performance awd, not in the middle

Not trying to give you a hard time though - test drives can be enlightening.

My inclination would definitely be to pony up the extra $10k (was briefly an $11k premium, but they bumped AWD back up from $4k to $5k), since that's only about $150/mo (for five year financing).

Another interesting thing I noticed is that they recently added "Lowered suspension" as a feature of the Performance Upgrade Package, which is only available for the Performance model. With the "Performance Brakes" already part of that package and now the suspension, the $5k price tag is starting to make more sense to me. Though, I am wondering what the details of this "Lowered suspension" are.

If buying a high performance sport sedan today, the Model 3 Performance would definitely be an attractive option, especially now that the F80 is exiting production. Rumors suggest there are G80 mules testing AWD. With the Model 3 Performance potentially set to become one of that car's biggest rivals, it could be the tipping point for at least the availability of AWD for the G80.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's an interesting conclusion given you earlier statement:



Not trying to give you a hard time though - test drives can be enlightening.

My inclination would definitely be to pony up the extra $10k (was briefly an $11k premium, but they bumped AWD back up from $4k to $5k), since that's only about $150/mo (for five year financing).

Another interesting thing I noticed is that they recently added "Lowered suspension" as a feature of the Performance Upgrade Package, which is only available for the Performance model. With the "Performance Brakes" already part of that package and now the suspension, the $5k price tag is starting to make more sense to me. Though, I am wondering what the details of this "Lowered suspension" are.

If buying a high performance sport sedan today, the Model 3 Performance would definitely be an attractive option, especially now that the F80 is exiting production. Rumors suggest there are G80 mules testing AWD. With the Model 3 Performance potentially set to become one of that car's biggest rivals, it could be the tipping point for at least the availability of AWD for the G80.

Agreed mkoesel, that test drives are key.

Originally, I thought model 3 performance was going to be a 120+ mph trap speed car

But the model 3 performance just isn't there to replace my past "fun" cars, especially on the freeway.

Another piece of info I got was that the $7.5k credit wasn't phasing out yet so waiting for the base model was less interesting.

[Ras550]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Agreed mkoesel, that test drives are key.

Originally, I thought model 3 performance was going to be a 120+ mph trap speed car

But the model 3 performance just isn't there to replace my past "fun" cars, especially on the freeway.

Another piece of info I got was that the $7.5k credit wasn't phasing out yet so waiting for the base model was less interesting.

The federal credit will start phasing out on jan 1. So if you order today (or soon) and get delivery by Dec 31 (current delivery estimates are 2-4 months from order date), you get the full $ 7,500. If you take delivery between Jan 1 and June 30th of next year, you only get half of the credit.

If you want the full credit, I'd act fast :-)

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Ras550

The federal credit will start phasing out on jan 1. So if you order today (or soon) and get delivery by Dec 31 (current delivery estimates are 2-4 months from order date), you get the full $ 7,500. If you take delivery between Jan 1 and June 30th of next year, you only get half of the credit.

If you want the full credit, I'd act fast :-)

Agreed.

Things got more complex for me after the test drive since it wasn't a slam dunk.

If the performance version was blazingly fast from a roll in addition to from a dig, and autopilot was closer to full level 5 autonomy I would have an order in already.

The fact I'm judging the car like any other performance daily driver is a win already but it's a tougher yard stick than just "cheap EV" that gets picked based on cost.

During the test drive loop "autopilot" on a 2 lane road suddenly give up and returned control to be abruptly in mid corner (road crested and fell away slightly to the right, and it was at an intersection so the lane markers were momentarily invisible). The sales person was just telling me about how I could check out for a few moments at a time and that would have been disasterous.

I know that autopilot is suppose to be a big selling point and I love the idea but I'm no longer fully convinced the tech is ready for prime... it's just good enough to lull you into a sense of complacency, which could end badly if you're on the wrong end of a "corner case" the software can't handle....

[ZTUNER]

So I drove the Model 3 this Sunday. It was a RWD Model 3 with LR battery and premium interior. I also own a ‘16 M3.

Interior
Interior is spartan, not a fan of the swath of black plastic in the center console. Finger print city. Seats are a bit plush and narrow for me so you sit on them, not in them. View from the driver seat is better than the F series. Minimal bulk, nose drops away, glass roof adds a lot of light. Fit and finish were on par with BMW, but plastics were more base model BMW than M3.

Exterior
I cant decide. Front looks bad IMO, sides are good, rear is OK. Overall nothing special.

Handling
Probably more on par with a base 3 Series. Very little lean but tires lag behind in response. Better tires would fix this at the expense of tire noise I guess. Braking is a moot point if using full regen. It brakes with the best, feel is a bit wooden. Steering is artificially heavy with no feel IMO.

Performance
This is where it shines. RWD Tesla seems faster off the line than a 335i. More importantly, it’s effortless. Feels slow but its faster. throttle in std mode is front loaded. Going from 75% to 100% throttle nets nothing. You might think that the throttle ends at 75%. Quick to 80 mph then its slower progress. Exactly the opposite of my M3 which pulls hard all the way.

Personally, I would have to say the Performance version would have the edge to 75 mph or so, but above that, probably not. With a tune on an M it would be nullified IMO. Handling is nowhere near an M. Interior is a big step down. Autopilot is nice but not super important to me. I think I want to hold out till the Porsche EV comes out. That should improve all the negatives above. I know cost will be higher, but such is life.

[IS350]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

So I drove the Model 3 this Sunday. It was a RWD Model 3 with LR battery and premium interior. I also own a ‘16 M3.

Interior
Interior is spartan, not a fan of the swath of black plastic in the center console. Finger print city. Seats are a bit plush and narrow for me so you sit on them, not in them. View from the driver seat is better than the F series. Minimal bulk, nose drops away, glass roof adds a lot of light. Fit and finish were on par with BMW, but plastics were more base model BMW than M3.

Exterior
I cant decide. Front looks bad IMO, sides are good, rear is OK. Overall nothing special.

Handling
Probably more on par with a base 3 Series. Very little lean but tires lag behind in response. Better tires would fix this at the expense of tire noise I guess. Braking is a moot point if using full regen. It brakes with the best, feel is a bit wooden. Steering is artificially heavy with no feel IMO.

Performance
This is where it shines. RWD Tesla seems faster off the line than a 335i. More importantly, it’s effortless. Feels slow but its faster. throttle in std mode is front loaded. Going from 75% to 100% throttle nets nothing. You might think that the throttle ends at 75%. Quick to 80 mph then its slower progress. Exactly the opposite of my M3 which pulls hard all the way.

Personally, I would have to say the Performance version would have the edge to 75 mph or so, but above that, probably not. With a tune on an M it would be nullified IMO. Handling is nowhere near an M. Interior is a big step down. Autopilot is nice but not super important to me. I think I want to hold out till the Porsche EV comes out. That should improve all the negatives above. I know cost will be higher, but such is life.

Thanks for the review. I'm also comparing to my lease: 2018 M3 Competition. After renting at Model 3 (non performance) I missed the seats and adjustable suspension in my M3, but, I was pleasantly impressed with the Tesla's acceleration, more than the interior. It was simple but left me wanting more options to customize the car's setup. That said, autopilot was awesome in traffic, getting to the airport, etc. Free Supercharging is a nice perk, too. I'm conflicted. I like the tech, but not sure I'm ready to give up the M3.

Meanwhile, 3.18 is rather impressive, even if the speed fades when the M3 doesn't.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...attery-charge/

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by IS350

Thanks for the review. I'm also comparing to my lease: 2018 M3 Competition. After renting at Model 3 (non performance) I missed the seats and adjustable suspension in my M3, but, I was pleasantly impressed with the Tesla's acceleration, more than the interior. It was simple but left me wanting more options to customize the car's setup. That said, autopilot was awesome in traffic, getting to the airport, etc. Free Supercharging is a nice perk, too. I'm conflicted. I like the tech, but not sure I'm ready to give up the M3.

Model 3 supercharging is not free. Model 3 performance may qualify for free supercharging with a referral like the Model S and X.

[HPIA4v2]

Tesla model-3 is so fast it's loses rear bumper

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos...3ob?li=BBnb4R5

[JibSTir13]

Originally Posted by HPIA4v2

Tesla model-3 is so fast it's loses rear bumper

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos...3ob?li=BBnb4R5

I wonder how long the dude who had his car for less than a few hours will have to wait for the part.

My friend had to wait over a month for parts for his Model X.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by IS350

Thanks for the review. I'm also comparing to my lease: 2018 M3 Competition. After renting at Model 3 (non performance) I missed the seats and adjustable suspension in my M3, but, I was pleasantly impressed with the Tesla's acceleration, more than the interior. It was simple but left me wanting more options to customize the car's setup. That said, autopilot was awesome in traffic, getting to the airport, etc. Free Supercharging is a nice perk, too. I'm conflicted. I like the tech, but not sure I'm ready to give up the M3.

Meanwhile, 3.18 is rather impressive, even if the speed fades when the M3 doesn't.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...attery-charge/

If you are impressed with the base model, you'll probably love the performance model

I'm surprised you found the base model acceleration impressive coming from an m3, or maybe I read too much into your post

[Ras550]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Agreed.

Things got more complex for me after the test drive since it wasn't a slam dunk.

If the performance version was blazingly fast from a roll in addition to from a dig, and autopilot was closer to full level 5 autonomy I would have an order in already.

The fact I'm judging the car like any other performance daily driver is a win already but it's a tougher yard stick than just "cheap EV" that gets picked based on cost.

During the test drive loop "autopilot" on a 2 lane road suddenly give up and returned control to be abruptly in mid corner (road crested and fell away slightly to the right, and it was at an intersection so the lane markers were momentarily invisible). The sales person was just telling me about how I could check out for a few moments at a time and that would have been disasterous.

I know that autopilot is suppose to be a big selling point and I love the idea but I'm no longer fully convinced the tech is ready for prime... it's just good enough to lull you into a sense of complacency, which could end badly if you're on the wrong end of a "corner case" the software can't handle....

Fair point on the autopilot - it's not perfect yet. But it is better than other such systems on the market per a recent report (will have to dig up the link). That said, I test drove the car because I wanted to drive it and enjoyed it so much that I didnt even want to try the autopilot.

The RWD Model 3 is faster from a roll than 340i etc based on reviews I've seen. We'll have to see more reports as the model 3 performance becomes more widely available.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Ras550

Fair point on the autopilot - it's not perfect yet. But it is better than other such systems on the market per a recent report (will have to dig up the link). That said, I test drove the car because I wanted to drive it and enjoyed it so much that I didnt even want to try the autopilot.

The RWD Model 3 is faster from a roll than 340i etc based on reviews I've seen. We'll have to see more reports as the model 3 performance becomes more widely available.

That's my exact worry, actually. It works pretty great when the conditions are ideal, which can lull you into a sense of complacency, but it could put you into the wall and kill you if you aren't paying attention.

The ??? for me is whether I feel I can resist that allure of complacency or not.

I might end up only using it on straight stretches of freeway with visible lane markings, and no turn offs

I agree that 340 is probably slower than model 3 performance from a roll. A lot of gas cars are slower, especially if they aren't doing a full launch from a stop, or in 3rd gear on the freeway ready for a highway pull

[Ras550]

Actually I meant that the regular model 3 is faster than 340i. I believe the performance model 3 is quicker than F80 on a roll. We'll have to wait for official test numbers to confirm though.

As for autopilot, I have no interesT in it. takes the fun away.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Ras550

Actually I meant that the regular model 3 is faster than 340i. I believe the performance model 3 is quicker than F80 on a roll. We'll have to wait for official test numbers to confirm though.

As for autopilot, I have no interesT in it. takes the fun away.

So a sterile driving experience with so so handling and no sound doesn't take way from the driving experience/fun but auto pilot does? :

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

So a sterile driving experience with so so handling and no sound doesn't take way from the driving experience/fun but auto pilot does? :

Have you driven it? I wouldn't necessarily call it sterile or so so. Still love my M3 more, but the model three is definitely a step in the right direction and no slouch.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Have you driven it? I wouldn't necessarily call it sterile or so so. Still love my M3 more, but the model three is definitely a step in the right direction and no slouch.

I haven't so I probably shouldn't be making comments. Haha

I have zero interest in Electric vehicles at this point in time.

0-60 is only one metric for an enjoyable driving experience and I really don't see these "cars" having any other advantage to them. They certainly aren't saving the environment but that's a discussion for another thread/time.

[IS350]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

If you are impressed with the base model, you'll probably love the performance model

I'm surprised you found the base model acceleration impressive coming from an m3, or maybe I read too much into your post

Allow me to clarify. The instant torque at nearly all "highway legal" speeds is what I was pleasantly impressed with. No need to downshift, just goes immediately. The M3 needs a little bit to get into the right gear, of course. And brilliant when it does.

I started this thread because I like the discussion, these are all opinions, some of us have driven the model 3, few of us have driven the performance flavor. I'm just starting to see the reviews and it looks solid. Is it worth $70k-ish, after the $7,500 government tax credit assuming you can take delivery by December? Who knows, but I like that there are options, and free SuperCharging is a perk, too.

I think what I would miss most is the ability to take the car to the track, without making any mods. The brakes and suspension and tire width in the M3 are obviously made for moderate tracking, with an easy drive home in comfort. My M1 button puts everything in the easy mode.

Again, I appreciate everyone's comments and perspectives.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by IS350

Of course it's more than 0-60 time, which Tesla is claiming to be around 3.5 seconds. However, have any of you thought about it, for the tech, alone, as a daily driver? I know I'd miss my M3, and all the handling capability, but I'm debating an order.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...-price-update/

In my opinion, the tech alone is the only really interesting thing about these cars.

Reason: Although this thread has more or less degenerated into drag racing advantages, the acceleration capability of Tesla vehicles is a fleeting and ethereal thing. Once you leave your driveway, the car is slowing down. Little by little at first, but then more and more as the battery depletes. Lunging off the line will always be cool (and that's how nine out of ten street drag races begin and end), but that one-trick coolness will begin to pale after several off the line lunges begin to measurably run the battery down - and you start worrying whether you're going to make it home.

Other coolnesses (like the lunges are essentially without the drama that attracts the gendarmes) are neat, but essentially noiseless acceleration robs the driver of the thrilling run to red line in M and AMG cars that are so much a part of the fun.

Hey, Tesla has made a major step forward here, but good-to-the-last-drop gasoline still rules, as your car actually gets a little quicker as you empty the tank.

Yup, they're cheaper to run, but the major disadvantages just outlined mean they've got quite a long way to go.


Bruce

[Fugly M3]

So, I was considering ordering a Model 3 PUP or getting an M3/4. I just leased an M4 this past week. I wanted the Tesla for the government freebies, carpool sticker and speed. But it had no heated steering wheel, unproven handling and range anxiety was too much. Not to mention it looks like they took a rear-ended Model S and said, that'll do.

I went to the local Tesla service center and described the cars I'm used to and the way I drive. Guy there said, if it were me, I'd get the M4. Add to that the fact that the toll lanes in LA are not only going to be a 15% discount instead of free, and I figured freebies or not, I'll have my whole life to drive an electric car. I will say, they are very cool and the future...I'm just not there yet.

[InsanePineapple]

There are pluses and minuses to each car. What a time we live in to have so many great choices in the market for high performance sedans. I say let people do what makes them happy! This is coming from a long time poster and BMW owner who is awaiting delivery of a Model 3 Performance

[mbiondo]

I had a model 3 come from behind me last night on the Parkway. I'd say, from my view, it looked almost as good as a Prius. Almost.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

In my opinion, the tech alone is the only really interesting thing about these cars.

Reason: Although this thread has more or less degenerated into drag racing advantages, the acceleration capability of Tesla vehicles is a fleeting and ethereal thing. Once you leave your driveway, the car is slowing down. Little by little at first, but then more and more as the battery depletes. Lunging off the line will always be cool (and that's how nine out of ten street drag races begin and end), but that one-trick coolness will begin to pale after several off the line lunges begin to measurably run the battery down - and you start worrying whether you're going to make it home.

Other coolnesses (like the lunges are essentially without the drama that attracts the gendarmes) are neat, but essentially noiseless acceleration robs the driver of the thrilling run to red line in M and AMG cars that are so much a part of the fun.

Hey, Tesla has made a major step forward here, but good-to-the-last-drop gasoline still rules, as your car actually gets a little quicker as you empty the tank.

Yup, they're cheaper to run, but the major disadvantages just outlined mean they've got quite a long way to go.


Bruce

Bruce, just curious, what's your experience level with EVs? Your post reminds me of what I used to think, before I commuted daily in an EV.