S55 vs. S65

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

I love this thread. Especially when people start to compare Ferrari flatplane/drysump V8 engines to the crossplane non dry sump S65.





Cheers
Robin

Who did that, and how was it compared?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Who did that, and how was it compared?

I did, did it before and I'll do it again.

But to Robin: Flat plane vs. cross plane is one relatively medium to small sized differentiator for an engine as is a dry sump. And sure dry sumps are trick but who really cares so much about a a dry sump when the S65s oil system can readily handle race level cornering loads without the extra complexity?

I stand by my comment that the S65 (along the the 4.2l Audi engine from the RS4) are the closest V8s to something built in Maranello that actually are not. The primary reasons for the comparison are the wealth of similarities I mentioned prior which deliver and engine with very similar character. I know I mentioned it prior but perhaps you are overlooking the truly epic broad and flat torque curve of the S65 that is actually superior to that of most if not all Ferrari V8s? I'm not talking peak torque or torque per liter here, Ferrari clearly win here I am talking about the amazing rpm range at which a huge fraction of peak torque is maintained and is nearly dead flat.

Sorry in advance for the getting pretty far off topic...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I did, did it before and I'll do it again.

But to Robin: Flat plane vs. cross plane is one relatively medium to small sized differentiator for an engine as is a dry sump. And sure dry sumps are trick but who really cares so much about a a dry sump when the S65s oil system can readily handle race level cornering loads without the extra complexity?

I stand by my comment that the S65 (along the the 4.2l Audi engine from the RS4) are the closest V8s to something built in Maranello that actually are not. The primary reasons for the comparison are the wealth of similarities I mentioned prior which deliver and engine with very similar character. I know I mentioned it prior but perhaps you are overlooking the truly epic broad and flat torque curve of the S65 that is actually superior to that of most if not all Ferrari V8s? I'm not talking peak torque or torque per liter here, Ferrari clearly win here I am talking about the amazing rpm range at which a huge fraction of peak torque is maintained and is nearly dead flat.

Sorry in advance for the getting pretty far off topic...

I know you have done so in other threads, but I have just read the entire thread and haven't found any comments from you (maybe I've missed it?). And, even though the flat plane crank is a more important thing to me, I completely agree with you. The S65 is, apart from crank layout, just as "exotic" as a Ferrari V8 in it's design.

In fact I can't find any comparison between a cross plane S65 and a flat plane Ferrari V8 in the entire thread...

I mentioned that I preferred the sound of a Ferrari V8 over a Corvette V8, that's the closest I get...

[Robin_NL]

Ezio mentioned the Ferrari V8 a few pages ago. Sorry I said 'compared to'...No worries, the M3 V8 is one of the most exotic engines in history of mankind...even more exotic than the stuff from Maranello

Cheers
Robin

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Ezio mentioned the Ferrari V8 a few pages ago. Sorry I said 'compared to'...No worries, the M3 V8 is one of the most exotic engines in history of mankind...even more exotic than the stuff from Maranello

Cheers
Robin

Ezio mentioned the driving experience of a Ferrari vs a 335i... Hardly any cross plane vs flat plane comparison...

No one said the S65 is "one of the most exotic engines in the history of mankind". Just as a 458 engine isn't either. Made in to high numbers to be that exotic and exclusive...

But since you mock the "exoticness" of the S65. What is it that makes a contemporary Ferrari V8 engine that much more exotic in your opinion?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Ezio mentioned the driving experience of a Ferrari vs a 335i... Hardly any cross plane vs flat plane comparison...

No one said the S65 is "one of the most exotic engines in the history of mankind". Just as a 458 engine isn't either. Made in to high numbers to be that exotic and exclusive...

But since you mock the "exoticness" of the S65. What is it that makes a contemporary Ferrari V8 engine that much more exotic in your opinion?

As I read it and forgive me, Ezio put the M3 V8 in the same league as a Ferrari V8 more or less.
He said:"there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ?"

If that's the case-and I drove an E90 M3 for 2 years- my dream of owning a Ferrari 458 has fallen to pieces if it's more or less the same experience/exoticness as driving the E90 M3.


Cheers
Robin

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

As I read it and forgive me, Enzio put the M3 V8 in the same league as a Ferrari V8 more or less.
He said:"there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ?"

If that's the case-and I drove an E90 M3 for 2 years- my dream of owning a Ferrari 458 has fallen to pieces if it's more or less the same experience/exoticness as driving the E90 M3.


Cheers
Robin

i was talking about a FERRARI not a M3. i was giving a explain of a high revving n/a motor that is a lot faster than a stock M3. and that was being written for some who only feels turbo engines provide the power he wants.trying to show him there is more to cars than power.

i never said anything about putting a Ferrari and M3 in the same league. i mean read what you quoted me on. did i say M3?

although the M3 does have a exotic FEEL to it more so than a lot of other non exotic cars. but that was never a debate or topic i was talking about!

i have seen a lot of Ferrari owners and other exotic car owners. buy M3s and E60 M5s. i have some very wealthy family members. my uncle is part of a big Ferrari club and owns multiple exotic cars. which is how i have been around them. i know first hand how some exotic cars feel.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Enzio mentioned the Ferrari V8 a few pages ago. Sorry I said 'compared to'...No worries, the M3 V8 is one of the most exotic engines in history of mankind...even more exotic than the stuff from Maranello

Cheers
Robin

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

As I read it and forgive me, Enzio put the M3 V8 in the same league as a Ferrari V8 more or less.
He said:"there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ?"

If that's the case-and I drove an E90 M3 for 2 years- my dream of owning a Ferrari 458 has fallen to pieces if it's more or less the same experience/exoticness as driving the E90 M3.


Cheers
Robin

Now that is confusing...

First you mock someone for apparently mentioning the S65 ENGINE to a Ferrari V8 ENGINE. Which, as we all know, no one actually did...

Then we comment on the S65 ENGINE and ask your comments on what makes a Ferrari ENGINE more "exotic".

Your reply suddenly not being about the engine anymore, but the whole car experience. Who said that driving a M3 was similar to driving a 458? You seem to constantly twist what others say. Where did Ezio say that driving a M3 was just like driving a 458? I think he explained quite well what he meant by his comment. And how you can take M3=458 in driving experience and feel, from that sentence about a high rpm NA engine, is beyond me

Driving a 458 (or 355, 360, 430 for that matter) is a completely different feeling compared with a M car. But we weren't discussing that, we where talking about the engine!

So, once again. What, in your view, makes the Ferrari V8 found in the 430 and 458 more "exotic" than the S65?

-Production numbers?
-Design features?
-Layout of valvetrain?
-Crankshaft design
-Dry sump?

Apart from the two last points, I'm not aware of any major differences between the two (not that I'm an expert on Ferrari engines BTW).

[Savory]

Take this discussion elsewhere guys, I'm afraid it's becoming more and more irrelevant to the S55 and is going towards S65 vs X engine.

[mkoesel]

Note that this thread may be moved soon. Please stay on topic: S55 vs. S65

[Jockey]

And the M3 was the benchmark before BMW put a V8 in it, so..

And you can say all you want all turbocharged engines are the same, it doesn't make it so.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by I am Earl

I will say this. The only thing that is different between a modded Asian car (be it high end like GTR or low end like Evo) and the turbo BMWs (the N54 and the S55) is the fact that latter has a BMW badge. Nothing more.

Ask the same question yourself for the S65 and there is a massive difference and that's the overall feel of driving the car. The joy. The engine and the exhaust note. Don't dismiss these things as if they are nothing. The current S65 engine is an affordable version of a super car engine (Ferrari) that people like myself can enjoy.

Who cares how much torque and horse power a turbo flat six will produce? People have been shopping for M3s for a quarter of century because of their high revving and naturally aspirated engines. If we wanted horsepower and handling and pure 0-60 numbers, we'd go for Japanese, GTR is a good example for one. That car costs same as the M4 if not less and will destroy the M4 both 0-60 and around the track. What does that tell you?

Different cars for different people. It's like apples and oranges. We are not saying one engine is worse than the other. We are saying each engine is appreciated by different type of crowd.

thats why i hate the new direction. its like the M cars had "pure" engines. now i see all these people coming here talking about tunes and downpipes ETC. things you hear over on the Japanese forums. which ya it not a bad thing, i am sure i would love to drive a tuned GTR. but i always pictured BMW not has a tuner brand. now that every BMW is small turbo engine car, it losses it appeal for me.

guess the times are a changin hahah

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

thats why i hate the new direction. its like the M cars had "pure" engines. now i see all these people coming here talking about tunes and downpipes ETC. things you hear over on the Japanese forums. which ya it not a bad thing, i am sure i would love to drive a tuned GTR. but i always pictured BMW not has a tuner brand.

Really? So the BMW aftermarket tuner world only started when BMW started using FI? Interesting.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Really? So the BMW aftermarket tuner world only started when BMW started using FI? Interesting.

of course not.

its just seems like everyone is now "tune happy" when talking about the M4. i am on the E92 m3 section of this forum. while people tune and mod there m3s. it was never the selling point of the car. nor when the e92 came out. people were not talking about tuning. same with E46.

its just different now.

(putting aside looks )
like if someone asked you whats better on the F80 over the E90. you would say its faster and you can gain a lot of power with a tune.

if you were to compared E46. you would say you get a highER revving motor with more power stock. no tune talking.

BMW is becoming a tuner brand more than ever. like people here would be upset if there was no room to gain power with a tune..... thats something a E92 or E46 owner never say. because the cars are not tuner cars... nor gain a lot with just a tune.

[Jockey]

Yeah, that's just not true. BMW tuning has been around for a LONG time with companies whose major focus is tuning BMWs (Turner, Bav Auto, Dinan). They wouldn't have existed for as long as they have if you were correct.

The majority of the people who buy an M3/4 will probably never do anything to the engine (I know I won't).

So to say that the new tuneability of the F8X is a major selling point is an over generalization. Especially since it's all conjecture and guesses on what a simple tune can get out of the S55.

A flash doesn't get much more power out of an NA motor. But the aftermarket scene has been pretty big in BMW for a while now.

[jayzF30]

E9x M3 has a high revving V8, and it is weak. I have one.

[Thurman Murch]

To me it seems that a lot of manufacturers reverse engineered the S65 and took lessons learned from that exercise and put them into their latest offerings GM, Ford, Ferrari and Audi included. I'm sure MB was taking notes as well. As much as we wished for an updated version of the S65, I am sure BMW will bring it back if they have to in some form or another.

Now that BMW pwned that V8 area, they are doing so with the S55 because they can. After reading the technical guides on the N54, N55, N63 and S65 I see a lot of trade craft in different areas but I still believe there is room left for improvement on the S55. Although BMW is known for its engines, I see more emphasis in the structure of the car. Now I can the see the next M2?/M3/M4 really raping the competition. And hopefully they come with A52, A73, S34 and a hood line that doesn't make people say the same thing like a broken record.

I think the S65 was developed around the DCT and that mdiff and the S55 has been developed around the ZF 6MT with the F10M derived diff

I'd like to see both an equivalent S55 and S65 do a pikes peak run in both DCT and 6MT and see which version comes out on top.

I'd take both but admit I like the S65 more. It just looks better under the hood and doesn't have all the issues that come from DI.

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by Ezio

thats why i hate the new direction. its like the M cars had "pure" engines. now i see all these people coming here talking about tunes and downpipes ETC. things you hear over on the Japanese forums. which ya it not a bad thing, i am sure i would love to drive a tuned GTR. but i always pictured BMW not has a tuner brand. now that every BMW is small turbo engine car, it losses it appeal for me.

guess the times are a changin hahah

what are you talking about! the M3 tuning market has been alive and thriving since before you were born (taking an intuitive guess that you are of a younger demographic )

[Yay-Z]

Originally Posted by I am Earl

These 335 guys never get old...

4 realz

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by paddy335

what are you talking about! the M3 tuning market has been alive and thriving since before you were born (taking an intuitive guess that you are of a younger demographic )

i guess you still do not understand what i am trying to say.

i KNOW the tuning and after market have been big with M cars for years. that is far from what i am making a point about. i have M3 and i am on a M forum.

its this new way of thinking on the forums. everyone is talking about how much power can be gain with a tune. only because the engine is now setup to be able to react better for mods. like most FI motors.

you tell me this. when the E46 and E92 were coming out. where people taking about tuning as much as they are now ? or where people talking about weight of engine and individual throttle bodies, and how high is the redline etc.....

its way more tempting to tune a FI motor over a n/a motor. because you gain so much more. this new engine promotes tuning more i would say.

where on the S65. you gotta so a full exhaust and tune to gain 35WHP-40WHP....

every single 335i i see driven by a car guy, has one thing. that is a Jb4 mod. which is cool, dont get me wrong. i just never pictured M cars to be more of the tuner cars. but more of a car that is great factory spec.

[solstice]

I like both FI and NA cars. I swapped between them many times since 1989 when I got my first FI car after a couple of NA cars. However when we get to NA engines of the S65's or S54's calibre there is no contest for me, I prefer NA. I'm looking forward to buying the F80 but not because I think the S55 is going to be a more fun and pleasurable engine, instead it's the updates to the chassi, lowered weight and more modern look and feel. Mostly though it's because I like the feel of something new after 3-4 years, except if it's perfection. The E90 is close but doesn't have the look of perfection like some Ferraris and Porsches. My 1999 Ducati fits, it's perfect in all senses to me and I will never sell it.

My rating at this stage before having driven the F80.

E90 M3:
s65:
F80:
S55:

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i guess you still do not understand what i am trying to say.

i KNOW the tuning and after market have been big with M cars for years. that is far from what i am making a point about. i have M3 and i am on a M forum.

its this new way of thinking on the forums. everyone is talking about how much power can be gain with a tune. only because the engine is now setup to be able to react better for mods. like most FI motors.
.

I do understand what you are trying to say. I also think you might be over-estimating how many people will actually tune the new engines.

It's one thing to speculate about potential power gains on a forum, and another altogether to actually do it. I think engine tuning will remain very niche on these cars until they trickle through into the post-warranty market, mainly because they will already be stonkingly quick and 99% of buyers won't be messing with their warranties.

No doubt there will be some wealthy modders and hp-queens who'll give it a go though.