R44 Performance
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-15-2019, 03:44 PM   #133
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
4892
Rep
3,783
Posts

Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (2)

Here's how you're supposed to react to modern BMWs, as stated by our trusty automotive journalists.

If it's an M2 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight = it's the greatest car of all time.

If it's an M3/M4 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight, it's a numb piece of shit with a terrible sounding exhaust that sucks on the track.

Hope that covers it for anyone confused.
Appreciate 12
Sedan_Clan24821.50
CanAutM321104.50
_robert_108.50
TimmyM56241.50
Jockey3434.50
Pic18303.50
jmg18493.00
swagon13482.50
BMWM5NYC496.00
BigHunk269.50
dezzracer1173.50
Arcades8136.50
      12-15-2019, 04:08 PM   #134
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24822
Rep
22,224
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Here's how you're supposed to react to modern BMWs, as stated by our trusty automotive journalists.

If it's an M2 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight = it's the greatest car of all time.

If it's an M3/M4 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight, it's a numb piece of shit with a terrible sounding exhaust that sucks on the track.

Hope that covers it for anyone confused.
Basically! Lol! #truth
Appreciate 0
      12-15-2019, 04:36 PM   #135
8_is_enough
Captain
8_is_enough's Avatar
197
Rep
985
Posts

Drives: 07 GT3, 18 Macan GTS, 22 X540i
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Danville, CA

iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Here's how you're supposed to react to modern BMWs, as stated by our trusty automotive journalists.

If it's an M2 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight = it's the greatest car of all time.

If it's an M3/M4 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight, it's a numb piece of shit with a terrible sounding exhaust that sucks on the track.

Hope that covers it for anyone confused.
Couldn't have said it better!
Appreciate 0
      12-15-2019, 05:31 PM   #136
kss
First Lieutenant
177
Rep
365
Posts

Drives: 2017 AY F80 ZCP
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8_is_enough View Post
Couldn't have said it better!
I got the M3C, but preferred the size/feel of the M2/M2C. If it didn’t have rubber called Dakota leather (and had full leather like my M3C) had HUD I would have went for the M2C.
Appreciate 1
zamboni1124.50
      12-15-2019, 05:37 PM   #137
Jim B
Wingman
Jim B's Avatar
1854
Rep
1,882
Posts

Drives: 2022 BMW M4 Manual
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Here's how you're supposed to react to modern BMWs, as stated by our trusty automotive journalists.

If it's an M2 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight = it's the greatest car of all time.

If it's an M3/M4 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight, it's a numb piece of shit with a terrible sounding exhaust that sucks on the track.

Hope that covers it for anyone confused.

Appreciate 0
      12-15-2019, 06:06 PM   #138
akkando
Major General
akkando's Avatar
5860
Rep
6,631
Posts

Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Here's how you're supposed to react to modern BMWs, as stated by our trusty automotive journalists.

If it's an M2 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight = it's the greatest car of all time.

If it's an M3/M4 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight, it's a numb piece of shit with a terrible sounding exhaust that sucks on the track.

Hope that covers it for anyone confused.
To be fair he panned the m2 and m2c as well.
Appreciate 0
      12-15-2019, 06:16 PM   #139
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Going wot on country roads gets you to dangerous mph very quickly in a f80. Going wot in a e46 not so much. Very different
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver

Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black
Appreciate 3
Sedan_Clan24821.50
minn1913970.00
jmg18493.00
      12-15-2019, 06:26 PM   #140
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
4892
Rep
3,783
Posts

Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
To be fair he panned the m2 and m2c as well.
I'm talking about automotive journalists in general.
Appreciate 0
      12-15-2019, 07:39 PM   #141
drreid3
New Member
6
Rep
14
Posts

Drives: F80, AP1 S2000
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Morganton, NC

iTrader: (0)

Common thread to many brands

I can't remember if I read in C&D or Road & Track that a journalist was talking to a development engineer who said something like, it's because of you journalists that constantly expect better performance numbers each year that the manufacturers are proitizing better performance at the expense of making a better car overall.
Appreciate 0
      12-15-2019, 09:17 PM   #142
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24822
Rep
22,224
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Going wot on country roads gets you to dangerous mph very quickly in a f80. Going wot in a e46 not so much. Very different
Right on! I had to giggle at the assertion that an E46 M3 won't get you into trouble.
Appreciate 1
BMWM5NYC496.00
      12-16-2019, 10:22 AM   #143
2011zx10R
Lieutenant
427
Rep
554
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Connecticut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
I still wonder if all the complaints about the rear end are just due to the DCT. Having a manual transmission forces you to modulate yourself after every shift. You shift, THEN feed in the throttle as power builds. You get instant feedback of how power and grip are building in relation to your throttle and clutch work. Whereas in a DCT, you feed in throttle, THEN the car does . . . something? On gear change and throttle uptake, there's a disconnection between your foot and the power to the rear wheels as the car is making decisions and engaging clutches for you. Even if you are pulling the paddles, you aren't forced to modulate the throttle with every shift as you are in a 6MT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post

I'd love to lease a Giulia QF, but the lack of a manual and reliability does concern me, seems like the 4-cylinder models are less problematic, but I do wish they offered a mid-trim V6 model to go against the C43 and M340.
With my student loans I'm going to defer on the M2/Boxster plans and strongly consider the Giulia for my next DD. The Giulia 4-cylinder looks sweet with the right color/wheels, it has more than adequate power, leases are strong, and the refreshed model's interior is good enough. Ultimately the driving experience comes first for me. I just can't connect with any of the German "sport" sedans. It's sad because I strongly prefer the German interiors, build quality, and overall ownership experience. Then you have Lexus who won't for the life of them redesign the IS/RC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
I still wonder if all the complaints about the rear end are just due to the DCT. Having a manual transmission forces you to modulate yourself after every shift. You shift, THEN feed in the throttle as power builds. You get instant feedback of how power and grip are building in relation to your throttle and clutch work. Whereas in a DCT, you feed in throttle, THEN the car does . . . something? On gear change and throttle uptake, there's a disconnection between your foot and the power to the rear wheels as the car is making decisions and engaging clutches for you. Even if you are pulling the paddles, you aren't forced to modulate the throttle with every shift as you are in a 6MT.
Agreed 6 MT here...

Tendency would be to hammer DCT if I had one... the shifts are fast and power is constant.

Good set of tires and proper tire pressure and
Judicious use of throttle/gas pedal
Appreciate 1
Sedan_Clan24821.50
      12-16-2019, 11:41 AM   #144
Montaver
Lieutenant Colonel
Montaver's Avatar
No_Country
2067
Rep
1,630
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4 & M340i LCI
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Here's how you're supposed to react to modern BMWs, as stated by our trusty automotive journalists.

If it's an M2 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight = it's the greatest car of all time.

If it's an M3/M4 with the S55, with same equipment, and similar weight, it's a numb piece of shit with a terrible sounding exhaust that sucks on the track.

Hope that covers it for anyone confused.
I've never seen any reviews which knock the F80's track credentials. In fact it's by far the most track able M3 out of the box. The cooling is monstrous, stiff body shell with solid rear subframe bushings, modern M diff, reasonable brakes, very balanced chassis. You can pound an F80 around a track all day, which is not necessarily the case for prior generations. The F80 a hard time initially because of the sound, power delivery, and early suspension. And frankly because everyone seems obsessed with V8's and it didnt have one. The later ZCP cars were almost universally praised in reviews.

The M2 gets so much acclaim because of its size, the short wheelbase really changes the character of the drive despite the inputs being very similar. I drove the F80 before acquiring my M2C, and this was by far the biggest difference. The M2C is a lot more playful, and given how under tired it is from the factory is quite a handful with a lower limit. The M2 feels a lot closer to my E46 than my E90 M3. Both the M2C and F80 fantastic cars though.
Appreciate 2
stein_325i25051.00
SCS55291.00
      12-16-2019, 11:44 AM   #145
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
4892
Rep
3,783
Posts

Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I've never seen any reviews which knock the F80's track credentials. In fact it's by far the most track able M3 out of the box. The cooling is monstrous, stiff body shell with solid rear subframe bushings, modern M diff, reasonable brakes, very balanced chassis. You can pound an F80 around a track all day, which is not necessarily the case for prior generations. The F80 a hard time initially because of the sound, power delivery, and early suspension. And frankly because everyone seems irrationally obsessed with V8's and it didnt have one. The later ZCP cars were almost universally praised in reviews.

The M2 gets so much acclaim because of its size, the short wheelbase really changes the character of the drive despite the inputs being very similar. I drove the F80 before acquiring my M2C, and this was by far the biggest difference. The M2C is a lot more playful, and given how under tired it is from the factory is quite a handful with a lower limit. Both Fantastic cars though.
There are plenty of reviews that knock the "uninspiring feel" of the chassis on the track. Especially early on when Mustangs and Camaros were keeping up or beating its lap times.
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2019, 11:53 AM   #146
Montaver
Lieutenant Colonel
Montaver's Avatar
No_Country
2067
Rep
1,630
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4 & M340i LCI
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
There are plenty of reviews that knock the "uninspiring feel" of the chassis on the track. Especially early on when Mustangs and Camaros were keeping up or beating its lap times.
The F80 is by far the most capable of any M3 generation on track. On any of the tracks I have driven in the Northeast it comfortably outpaces my recently sold E90, and that was with properly dialed in coil overs and 200TW tires. The newer Mustangs (GT350) and Camaro's (ZL1 1LE etc) all come with massive tires from the factory. I'd happily put an F80 against any of them on like for like rubber. SYT_Shadow runs a mildly fettled M3 CS that absolutely monsters almost everything out there bar the faster GT3's, forced induction Corvettes etc., and that includes at 'big boy' tracks like WGI.
Appreciate 2
SYT_Shadow11421.00
Sedan_Clan24821.50
      12-16-2019, 12:28 PM   #147
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
4892
Rep
3,783
Posts

Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The F80 is by far the most capable of any M3 generation on track. On any of the tracks I have driven in the Northeast it comfortably outpaces my recently sold E90, and that was with properly dialed in coil overs and 200TW tires. The newer Mustangs (GT350) and Camaro's (ZL1 1LE etc) all come with massive tires from the factory. I'd happily put an F80 against any of them on like for like rubber. SYT_Shadow runs a mildly fettled M3 CS that absolutely monsters almost everything out there bar the faster GT3's, forced induction Corvettes etc., and that includes at 'big boy' tracks like WGI.
I'm not arguing with you, I agree. But I'm just making a point about how jaded automotive journalists can be.
Appreciate 1
Montaver2066.50
      12-16-2019, 01:18 PM   #148
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
I'm not arguing with you, I agree. But I'm just making a point about how jaded automotive journalists can be.
for sure.

'M4 steering is shit' gives way to 'M2 steering is great' and one after the other

In the end I agree with Chris Harris' review back in like 2015, where he said the haters had to learn how to drive before criticizing the M3.

It's also interesting to see comparisons between a M4 with 255/275 PSS tires compared against a SS 1LE with 305 front tires... apples to oranges
Appreciate 3
Sedan_Clan24821.50
WWM3956.50
      12-16-2019, 02:56 PM   #149
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The F80 is by far the most capable of any M3 generation on track. On any of the tracks I have driven in the Northeast it comfortably outpaces my recently sold E90, and that was with properly dialed in coil overs and 200TW tires. The newer Mustangs (GT350) and Camaro's (ZL1 1LE etc) all come with massive tires from the factory. I'd happily put an F80 against any of them on like for like rubber. SYT_Shadow runs a mildly fettled M3 CS that absolutely monsters almost everything out there bar the faster GT3's, forced induction Corvettes etc., and that includes at 'big boy' tracks like WGI.
There’s an interesting thread in the track sub forum where several members have put forward that an m4 ZCP with 275 front / 305 rear 200tw tire and camber plates basically puts the m4 even with stock SS 1LE lap time wise.

I hope Bmw gives that type of wider 200tw tire and camber plates setup stock in the future, especially on CS models, which were supposedly designed for cup 2 (but nerfed with PSS here I the US). Also, bmw should note the American cars can fit 305 wide tires in front and hopefully will plan for more clearance so the next gen can accept that setup
Appreciate 1
jmg18493.00
      12-16-2019, 03:14 PM   #150
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
There’s an interesting thread in the track sub forum where several members have put forward that an m4 ZCP with 275 front / 305 rear 200tw tire and camber plates basically puts the m4 even with stock SS 1LE lap time wise.

I hope Bmw gives that type of wider 200tw tire and camber plates setup stock in the future, especially on CS models, which were supposedly designed for cup 2 (but nerfed with PSS here I the US). Also, bmw should note the American cars can fit 305 wide tires in front and hopefully will plan for more clearance so the next gen can accept that setup
The thing is cars with massive tires drive like ass.

I mean it's cool to have things like the SS 1LE etc that are fast, however, driving those cars on the street is going to suck, especially if you add a track alignment.

The F series has space to fit a 285 R1 under the front fender... that's a very fat tire. BMW does give you space to fit track dedicated stuff if you want
Appreciate 1
Sedan_Clan24821.50
      12-16-2019, 04:31 PM   #151
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I mean it's cool to have things like the SS 1LE etc that are fast, however, driving those cars on the street is going to suck, especially if you add a track alignment.
Why, because it tramlines on the freeway? So what?

The conversation we were having i thought was why ss 1LE etc are faster than F80/F82 stock vs stock, and part of it is because it comes with 285 front/ 305 rear 200tw tire from the factory, while F80/F82 has 255 / 275 300tw commuter tires (and BMW has appx -1 deg front camber, non adjustable, and Chevy can be -2 with adjustment possible)
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2019, 05:47 PM   #152
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Why, because it tramlines on the freeway? So what?

The conversation we were having i thought was why ss 1LE etc are faster than F80/F82 stock vs stock, and part of it is because it comes with 285 front/ 305 rear 200tw tire from the factory, while F80/F82 has 255 / 275 300tw commuter tires (and BMW has appx -1 deg front camber, non adjustable, and Chevy can be -2 with adjustment possible)
Yeah, and tramlining sucks. I've driven tens of thousands of miles with 275 and 285 square setups and they are horrible.

None of the cars we're discussing are really track specials. For the people who really want to track you can easily just swap wheels.

People seem to think the SS 1LE is some kind of mythical beast on the track... it isn't. At 3800lb it's not going to be faster than a E9X with basic track mods.
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2019, 06:04 PM   #153
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Yeah, and tramlining sucks. I've driven tens of thousands of miles with 275 and 285 square setups and they are horrible.

None of the cars we're discussing are really track specials. For the people who really want to track you can easily just swap wheels.

People seem to think the SS 1LE is some kind of mythical beast on the track... it isn't. At 3800lb it's not going to be faster than a E9X with basic track mods.
It must depend on how the freeways are in your area. I didn’t really see an issue with that tire width when I had my f80

100% agreed. The track rats will be towing competition cars of some sort, but we are on a “trackable street car” forum so let’s go with that.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1672415

Linking the related thread on the track forum to keep the SS 1LE vs F82 zcp over there
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      12-16-2019, 06:17 PM   #154
zamboni
I want to drive a Zamboni
zamboni's Avatar
United_States
1125
Rep
5,551
Posts

Drives: 13 E93 M3 18 F80 M3 16 K71
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Monte Sereno, CA

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
16 K71 F800GT  [10.00]
2018 F80 M3  [10.00]
2013 BMW E93 M3  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kss View Post
I got the M3C, but preferred the size/feel of the M2/M2C. If it didn’t have rubber called Dakota leather (and had full leather like my M3C) had HUD I would have went for the M2C.
M2 would never have the HUD.
__________________
18 F80 Imola Red 6MT
16 K71 F800GT Montego Blue
13 E93 M3 Melbourne Red

2000 E46,2006 E90,09 E82,13 E93 328i,14 F30 335i,18 F80 M3
My next vehicle would be a Zamboni
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST