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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ?
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable 93 46.04%
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine 109 53.96%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-31-2013, 03:03 PM   #397
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all dis technical talk makes my tired
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      12-31-2013, 04:00 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
all dis technical talk makes my tired


Of you to say this...
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      12-31-2013, 04:35 PM   #399
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I will say this towards the end of 2013:

The S65 and S85 was/is amazing engines and it's great the BMW M was allowed the budgets to develop such crazy engines for their M lineup. They stand out as dedicated and exceptional engines that surpasses all of the previous M engines in their uniqueness and non-relation to BMW AG engines. To judge any previous or future M engines based just on the S65 and S85 is not fair... The S55 is more equal to previous M engines.

That being said, I am hopeful that the F8x and S55 will prove to be an amazing fast and agile combination

Happy New Year!
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      12-31-2013, 05:03 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I will say this towards the end of 2013:

The S65 and S85 was/is amazing engines and it's great the BMW M was allowed the budgets to develop such crazy engines for their M lineup. They stand out as dedicated and exceptional engines that surpasses all of the previous M engines in their uniqueness and non-relation to BMW AG engines. To judge any previous or future M engines based just on the S65 and S85 is not fair... The S55 is more equal to previous M engines.

That being said, I am hopeful that the F8x and S55 will prove to be an amazing fast and agile combination

Happy New Year!
Very well said .

Best wishes for the new year to you too
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      01-01-2014, 02:08 AM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I will say this towards the end of 2013:

The S65 and S85 was/is amazing engines and it's great the BMW M was allowed the budgets to develop such crazy engines for their M lineup. They stand out as dedicated and exceptional engines that surpasses all of the previous M engines in their uniqueness and non-relation to BMW AG engines. To judge any previous or future M engines based just on the S65 and S85 is not fair... The S55 is more equal to previous M engines.

That being said, I am hopeful that the F8x and S55 will prove to be an amazing fast and agile combination

Happy New Year!
i can respect what you said here.

although i still feel the E46 engine (S54) does have some things in common with S65. in the high revving n/a engine. although its a inline 6. so it does have some things in common with both S65 and S55.

this is the first time a M3 is getting a turbo. even though it is a I6 engine. so its still a new style of engine for M3. and it has something to prove to us. i think this "The S55 is more equal to previous M engines." is used little to loosely. i would hold that statement until the reviews are out. this new engine is going to have a very different feel over all the last generations. could be great, could be ok or could be bad.

i agree the S65 and S85 were made in a different BMW era so it is unfair to compare at times though.

although i am not going to keep fighting this new turbo engine. i will give it a fair test drive and welcome it to 2014.
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      01-01-2014, 04:27 AM   #402
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S55 vs. S65

Who would choose an F8x M3/M4 with an S65 (~ 440PS / 435Nm) over an F8x M3/M4 with the standart S55 (431PS / 550Nm) if this engine swap was possible by BMW Individual for ~ 7.500 - 10.000 (including the M-DCT of the E9x M3!).

Last edited by BMW M3 CRT; 01-01-2014 at 07:32 AM..
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      01-01-2014, 04:29 AM   #403
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We've never driven the new car. This thread is premature.
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      01-01-2014, 04:51 AM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i can respect what you said here.

although i still feel the E46 engine (S54) does have some things in common with S65. in the high revving n/a engine. although its a inline 6. so it does have some things in common with both S65 and S55.

this is the first time a M3 is getting a turbo. even though it is a I6 engine. so its still a new style of engine for M3. and it has something to prove to us. i think this "The S55 is more equal to previous M engines." is used little to loosely. i would hold that statement until the reviews are out. this new engine is going to have a very different feel over all the last generations. could be great, could be ok or could be bad.

i agree the S65 and S85 were made in a different BMW era so it is unfair to compare at times though.

although i am not going to keep fighting this new turbo engine. i will give it a fair test drive and welcome it to 2014.
EZIO: I meant it's more similar to previous generation M engines as it's based on a regular production engine. It's obviously different since it's turbo...
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      01-01-2014, 05:07 AM   #405
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I've tasted S65 and I liked however I'm ready to try S55 now.
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      01-01-2014, 05:45 AM   #406
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I agree with Sedan_Clan. Any comparison right now is premature. I can only say that this is about as excited as I've been about a new car release in a long time! I'm looking forward to having an F80 in my garage this summer.
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      01-01-2014, 06:50 AM   #407
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I agree with the others. As much as I love the S65 and as much as I am aprehensive of the S55, I need to drive it before I can vote.
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      01-01-2014, 07:27 AM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I agree with the others. As much as I love the S65 and as much as I am aprehensive of the S55, I need to drive it before I can vote.
I can understand and agree with the statement "Frist drive and then descide" ... and I am sure that the new F8x would be clearly "The best M3 ever build" ... but the engine is an total change in M Philosophy and that without an improvement in hp !!!

For my an M3 doesn't need the highest hp-numbers, but it also was never ever an car defined over high low end torque numbers ... so for me there is no reason to change the engine if ~430hp are enough.
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      01-01-2014, 07:32 AM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
I can understand and agree with the statement "Frist drive and then descide" ... and I am sure that the new F8x would be clearly "The best M3 ever build" ... but the engine is an total change in M Philosophy and that without an improvement in hp !!!

For my an M3 doesn't need the highest hp-numbers, but it also was an car defined over high low end torque numbers ... so for me there is no reason to change the engine if ~430hp are enough.
I think in the case of the S55 it is about more than just the "advertised" 431ps.

First, the engine is more than likely under rated by a good 30hp. Second, the very broad power plateau will translate into real world acceleration that the S65 will not be able to match (even in a 440hp trim).

It is the "feel" of the engine that has me worried, especially regarding throttle response. Only a test drive will tell me if my worries are justified or not.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 01-01-2014 at 08:51 AM..
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      01-01-2014, 07:53 AM   #410
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I also agree with Sedan Clan. It's also theoretically, practically BMW Individual won't ever do that (for that money).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
I can understand and agree with the statement "Frist drive and then descide" ... and I am sure that the new F8x would be clearly "The best M3 ever build" ... but the engine is an total change in M Philosophy and that without an improvement in hp !!!

For my an M3 doesn't need the highest hp-numbers, but it also was never ever an car defined over high low end torque numbers ... so for me there is no reason to change the engine if ~430hp are enough.
In bold: I don't think that any new M3 or whatever car automatically deserves that title. To me the E46 M3 CSL was about 'the best M3 ever build'. Why is a bigger heavier car(successor) a better car in the first place? I don't get that.

Also no improvement in HP (on paper) but in real life the new one will be much faster because of way more torque at the wheels and a bit more lightness.

Cheers
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      01-01-2014, 08:05 AM   #411
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Come to think of it, if my stock E9x M3 didn't have the 4.0 litre S65 but the GTS/CRT 450BHP 4.4 litre unit plus M-DCT, I probably still would have that same car. And if it was about 100kgs lighter ...But that's also in theory, just like the OPs wishful thinking(which is a good thing by the way). The what-if theory.

Cheers
Robin
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      01-01-2014, 08:43 AM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I think in the case of the S55 it is more than just the "advertised" 431ps.

First, the engine is more than likely under rated by a good 30hp. Second, the very broad power plateau will translate into real world acceleration that the S65 will not be able to match (even in a 440hp trim).

It is the "feel" of the engine that has me worried, especially regarding throttle response. Only a test drive will tell me if my worries are justified or not.
Your fears are well justified. The S65 is a spectacularly special engine in terms of feel, response, sound, etc. How can you not be utterly transformed into a puddle of goo when you get on it and simply hear it HOWL like a banshee toward that 8,000 plus RPM redline! Magical. And unlikely to be replicated. However I wanted to highlight something you wrote regarding the broad power plateau. Not only are the 406 ft-lbs spread over 1850-5500 RPM, but the POWER of 425 HP is spread over 5,500 to 7,300. Two things about that.

A nearly 2,000 RPM range where peak power is produced is pretty damn spectacular.

THat the engine makes peak power all the way up to 7,300 RPM while still having such a broad torque peak is also pretty remarkable.

I've recently driven an S6 and a Caddy CTS VSport. Both have similar figures but are less impressive when broken down. The Caddy has 420 HP @ 5750 and 430 ft-lbs from 3500 to 4500. It also has a 6,000 RPM redline! On a 3.8L V6! Makes the 7,600 of the M3 seem hyper-car like. And look at how high that torque peak is.

The Audi has 420 HP @ 5,500 to 6,400 and 406 @ 1,400 to 5,200, so it has no power advantage, only a slight torque advantage (and this only in width, not peak), and this despite being 1 liter larger with two more cylinders. The Audi has a 6,500 RPM redline.

So while the S55 might not be as insanely cool as the S65, it's pretty damn special when viewed in light of two very strong and competitive engines.


The other thing to note...that Caddy got up and went. It wasn't CTS-V fast, but it was damn quick. And it weighs at LEAST 500 lbs more than an M3, if not a bit more. Hot damn, the M3 / M4 is going to fly in trafic.
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      01-01-2014, 09:14 AM   #413
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^^^the new engine sounds great!


I love torque and the S55 has ton of it!
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      01-01-2014, 09:50 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Your fears are well justified. The S65 is a spectacularly special engine in terms of feel, response, sound, etc. How can you not be utterly transformed into a puddle of goo when you get on it and simply hear it HOWL like a banshee toward that 8,000 plus RPM redline! Magical. And unlikely to be replicated. However I wanted to highlight something you wrote regarding the broad power plateau. Not only are the 406 ft-lbs spread over 1850-5500 RPM, but the POWER of 425 HP is spread over 5,500 to 7,300. Two things about that.

A nearly 2,000 RPM range where peak power is produced is pretty damn spectacular.

THat the engine makes peak power all the way up to 7,300 RPM while still having such a broad torque peak is also pretty remarkable.

I've recently driven an S6 and a Caddy CTS VSport. Both have similar figures but are less impressive when broken down. The Caddy has 420 HP @ 5750 and 430 ft-lbs from 3500 to 4500. It also has a 6,000 RPM redline! On a 3.8L V6! Makes the 7,600 of the M3 seem hyper-car like. And look at how high that torque peak is.

The Audi has 420 HP @ 5,500 to 6,400 and 406 @ 1,400 to 5,200, so it has no power advantage, only a slight torque advantage (and this only in width, not peak), and this despite being 1 liter larger with two more cylinders. The Audi has a 6,500 RPM redline.

So while the S55 might not be as insanely cool as the S65, it's pretty damn special when viewed in light of two very strong and competitive engines.


The other thing to note...that Caddy got up and went. It wasn't CTS-V fast, but it was damn quick. And it weighs at LEAST 500 lbs more than an M3, if not a bit more. Hot damn, the M3 / M4 is going to fly in trafic.
good post. I have also posted similar things on this forum

I see you are in Houston, do you have a pre-order for the m3/4? And if you get one, hope to see you at the track! There are a few of us who track around here, if you aren't currently tracking, you should definitely consider trying an event out!

sorry for the OT

I definitely wouldn't take the s65 over the s55 at this point (of course the engine could disappoint in real life). I think it will be far superior as a DD, and allow for more pace on the track too. I cant wait for this car, and trust that the cooling will be sufficient, and aftermarket heat exchangers / intercoolers will only make the car run better.
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      01-01-2014, 10:15 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
However I wanted to highlight something you wrote regarding the broad power plateau. Not only are the 406 ft-lbs spread over 1850-5500 RPM, but the POWER of 425 HP is spread over 5,500 to 7,300.
We are in agreement here . And this is why I did specify POWER plateau and not torque plateau. I have said it often, torque at the flywheel means nothing, but power is everything .
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      01-01-2014, 10:18 AM   #416
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Two things:

1) Cannot use ANY car from the S line from Audi as a comparison, that's unfair to the Audi, must talk RS to be fair comparison.

2) Cannot claim more torque to the wheels on the F80/82 unless you have ran some advanced metrics based on trans ratios and such (ask SWAMP) which I have not seen run, but may have been. Corvette has less tq to the wheels than the e9x ///Ms so we all know tq to the wheels has nothing to do with tq numbers at the crank.

Cheers,
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      01-01-2014, 10:22 AM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB
^^^the new engine sounds great!


I love torque and the S55 has ton of it!
If you know how to shift and are in the right gear, e92 had more tq to the wheels than the vette.

Now, if you like tq even when in the wrong gear or do not like shifting, then yes, you 10000% correct, the S55 is gonna be a winner.

Cheers,
e46e92
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      01-01-2014, 12:09 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
If you know how to shift and are in the right gear, e92 had more tq to the wheels than the vette.

Now, if you like tq even when in the wrong gear or do not like shifting, then yes, you 10000% correct, the S55 is gonna be a winner.

Cheers,
e46e92
I just didn't like to have to rev it so high to get it to go. I always felt that I was drawing too much attention to myself. Great engine and I loved the DCT matched to it. Fired off shifts perfectly. But I want something from 2000 rpm up to put me in the back of my seat. I want to launch right from the start, kind of like when I was in an R8 V10 plus on the track. When we left pit lane it just flew. Sometimes I guess I just get bored of constantly shifting in traffic (why I hate driving the 6 speed in my GTI sometimes) and when I get in my Porsche, it just pulls (and that's an overweight SUV). I think I will be very happy with the new S55 like you said because I don't like to always have to have the engine on boil and constantly shifting. I guess I am just getting old or something.
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