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03-21-2014, 10:57 PM | #67 | |
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In this specific case, I agree, it remains to be seen if cost has viciously been overrated again. I don't trust car magazines though, at least german ones. Articles almost always seem to be manipulated and tendentious, and only then sometimes in favor for BMW, if a certain huge manufacturer group doesn't participate in the same test. Also, concerning steering, my own experience often (in about 3/4 of all cases) differs largely from what is written in an article. But admittedly, I think I could be called a fan-boy, although I don't like the expression. Up to a certain point, I would still buy BMW products, even I by myself would rate them as (slightly) technical inferior to those of the competition. I'd justify this as some kind of long-term investment, I suppose. Last edited by Kadema; 03-22-2014 at 08:46 AM.. |
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03-22-2014, 06:44 AM | #68 | |
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And not that it should need to be said, but no manufacturer is throwing around money carelessly and wastefully. At least none that wants to stay in business. If you can compete with a solution costing you $X, then, no, you don't spend $X+ just for the novelty of it. If a company is willing to spend more on a product it is only because the business case tells them that they will profit more for doing so. Porsche is a shining example of this profit maximization at work. Complete with EPS in cars costing up to and over $200k. Spare no expense indeed - consumer expense. Since we are speculating about costs, though, I'll add this speculation. For me, I strongly doubt any other manufacturer has paid as much attention to the steering as BMW M has in this price range. I'm not saying BMW will have the best steering or the best car, even. But it won't be for lack of effort in my opinion. |
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03-22-2014, 09:15 AM | #69 | |
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03-22-2014, 09:59 AM | #70 | |
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Any M5/M6 customer imagining that HPS will remain a feature in those cars is going to face disappointment with the next generation product. HPS is, in fact, unlikely to appear in any future BMW, and will most probably be as dead as the carburetor and drum brake in passenger cars in just a few years time. |
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03-22-2014, 10:14 AM | #71 | |
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03-22-2014, 10:17 AM | #72 | |
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But the fact remains, at least here in Canada, the M5s are not selling. The M3/4 are not even in the show rooms yet, and the dealer allocations are going fast. This was never the case with the M5/6. |
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03-22-2014, 11:45 AM | #73 | |
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How about Ferrari explicitly stating that they are selling less cars than the demand which drastically limits their profit? Doesn't seem rational and probably isn't. Surely the idea of limiting supply to create large unmet demand is not required to maintain Ferrari's pricing. Also, "novelty" had nothing to due with the reasons I stated when sometimes cost is not a factor or least a very small factor. There is a difference between BMW, Ferrari, Rolls Royce and perhaps finally custom business jets or yachts. In the latter two, cost often (not always) just isn't a factor. Also, not having cost as a relevant or significant factor isn't the same as throwing money around carelessly.
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03-22-2014, 12:24 PM | #74 |
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One of the many advantages of EPS is the ease of integration with the other systems, such as adaptive suspension. So much easier to adjust software to fine-tune fit with other components. Push the Sport button and whiffo-presto, all systems changed in synch. Last minute production changes in other components, just change software. Specific fine-tuning to other options, e.g., DCT, easily done via software. Revisions, easy. So much easier/cheaper to do the computer modeling of the whole car during design.
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03-22-2014, 12:25 PM | #75 | |
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If the M5 was the exact same price as an M3, I'd take the M3. So would nearly everyone, because the M5/6 are highway lux-bombers, not a track car. They are utterly different car, for a different purpose, for different type of person. -CanAutM3 said: "I would tend to believe that this M3/M4 crowd will be much more critical of how the steering feels vs the M5/M6 crowd." -You said: "...I dont track my cars, I dont mod my cars, I dont dyno my cars. I drive them in the city and highway and some country roads thats all." Reality check: You are NOT as discerning as a driver, as you are a luxury owner, illustrated by your purchase of a 6-series. Lastly, the M6 is not an upgrade over the M4. It is a literally a downgrade in every category except one, ego massage. (Fact!) |
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03-22-2014, 01:07 PM | #76 | |
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I have had several BMWs and Ms and never have I paid a dime over invoice. There is being car enthusiast and then there is being the person who gets financially taken advantage of. It has got nothing to do with car sales and what not, it's all about timing. Have fun "early adopting", I will see you back here in a few months complaining about this and that about your car. If you think that M3/M4 release will be a smooth sail with this much added technology and complexity, you are sadly mistaken. |
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03-22-2014, 01:11 PM | #77 | |
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I said I'm not a "track junkie" and I'm not. I'm not 25. I'm not single. I don't like driving around in a car that looks and sounds like those cars in Fast & Furious. I'm over that phase. I'm past lowering the car with springs, or custom BBS wheels, or exhaust mods, or driving to track with track tires in the back of my car and swapping them out there. And I cannot tell you how glad I am that 9 out of 10 people going between an M3 and an M5 goes with an M3, it makes my car as just exclusive. M3s are everywhere where I live and almost every time they are driven by the similar type of looking person. I don't have to go on, you get my point |
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03-22-2014, 01:54 PM | #78 | |
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03-22-2014, 03:00 PM | #79 |
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Duly noted
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03-22-2014, 06:59 PM | #80 | |
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Sure, swamp. I'm talking about an M3, not a Ferrari. If you are playing in the money-is-no-object, rarified air occupied by Ferrari and Rolls, then the business case changes considerably.
Still, I think we'll see Maranello start using EPS in the next few years. Quote:
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03-22-2014, 11:34 PM | #81 |
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They will use EPS precisely when it is hands down better than hydraulic which is also precisely their thought on when they will use turbo charging, when lag is completely eliminated...
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03-23-2014, 02:26 AM | #82 | ||
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What does the typical M5/6 driver look/act like? Constipated? Aged? Fat? Balding? I'm genuinely curious because the demographic interested in the ///M3 and ///M4 varies widely. I've seen every type under the sun behind the wheel of an ///M car. I will tell you this much - and it's anecdotal - nearly every M5/M6/7 Series driver that I pull over while on a beat acts entitled and has a serious chip. |
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03-23-2014, 07:44 AM | #83 |
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Oh this psychographics battle is getting good!
I'll turn 60 later this year and I just stopped racing last April due to a nasty encounter with a tree at Summit Point Jefferson Circuit (ABS failure). Pressure from spouse & employees. Don't know where I fit in the stereotypes, but I'd still be towing a car with track tires if it weren't for that. And I'm dumping my E60 M5 for the F80 M3 because the 5 is a little too truck-like for me. The V10 is spectacular, but I want my frisky handling back!
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03-23-2014, 07:52 AM | #84 | |
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03-23-2014, 09:12 AM | #85 | |
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03-23-2014, 09:38 AM | #86 |
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I'm not trying to be offending to anyone, simply stating my observations.
There are always exceptions to everything. Heck I know a guy, who after a masters in computer science and 10 years in the field, decided to go to med school at the age of 32 and is studying day and night now. It doesn't mean that's the norm though. Yes there are probably 50 year old family dads driving M4s as much as there are 22 year old kids who drive an M6, but again, not the norm. What I have observed where I lived is all of the current and previous generation M3 owners, even the E90 sedan owners, were young males, between the ages of 20-30. Those of whom I had met, most of them had extremely cocky and more importantly aggressive attitude (similar to those people who are attacking me on this forum). They talked about nothing but car mods, 100 gas, 0-60 times, and used the words "dude" and "like" more than twice in every sentence. Again, this is my observation. From where I stand, this demographic left a sour taste in my mouth because everyone around me makes M3 look like the kids car. Say what you want to say, this is what I have observed. It may be different in some part of the country where there isn't at least 1 BMW or 1 Mercedes per household. Last edited by Below Speed Limit; 03-23-2014 at 09:45 AM.. |
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03-23-2014, 10:02 AM | #87 |
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When you are between the ages of 20 and 30, you need to be cocky and aggressive.
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03-23-2014, 10:28 AM | #88 | |
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Driving cost out of components does not always mean a functionally inferior product. Let's not forget that. A major part of engineering is simplicity and elegance. And sometimes, when you spend less money on one subsystem you can advance the state of the art on others. Carbon fiber, for example, isn't generally cheap as you know. |
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