GetBMWParts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-05-2019, 10:31 AM   #45
Alan l.
Major General
Alan l.'s Avatar
2724
Rep
7,073
Posts

Drives: 2018 Individual M3 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: United States

iTrader: (9)

good work Racer20.

The L and R top hats are the same so makes me wonder why everyone only has this noise on the drivers side.... I've had this noise with a brand new top hat installed so its not that. Is it possible that on lowered cars there isn't enough preload from the spring as the shock un-compress itself?

Alan
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 12:25 PM   #46
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan l. View Post
good work Racer20.

The L and R top hats are the same so makes me wonder why everyone only has this noise on the drivers side.... I've had this noise with a brand new top hat installed so its not that. Is it possible that on lowered cars there isn't enough preload from the spring as the shock un-compress itself?

Alan
The top hat itself is the same, but it's rotated into a different orientation in-car. Check list 10 . . . I suspect the load path doesn't line up as neatly with the recessional motion path on the passenger side.

I think the 5 bolt mounts were an attempt to fix this problem, but didn't completely eliminate it. I've driven another members 2017 car in my test bump and the noise is there but mine is significantly worse.

Now the tough question: how to fix it?
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 02:01 PM   #47
danchee
First Lieutenant
63
Rep
308
Posts

Drives: 18' F80 M3 Laguna Seca Blue
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Rainy City

iTrader: (0)

Urethane insert?
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 02:07 PM   #48
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

The 5-bolts mount was part of the LCI modifications to increase steering feel. This noise was fixed in the F3x by a new steering rack insert kit as discussed before. Nothing for the F8x other than replacing the rack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The top hat itself is the same, but it's rotated into a different orientation in-car. Check list 10 . . . I suspect the load path doesn't line up as neatly with the recessional motion path on the passenger side.

I think the 5 bolt mounts were an attempt to fix this problem, but didn't completely eliminate it. I've driven another members 2017 car in my test bump and the noise is there but mine is significantly worse.

Now the tough question: how to fix it?
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 03:40 PM   #49
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
The 5-bolts mount was part of the LCI modifications to increase steering feel. This noise was fixed in the F3x by a new steering rack insert kit as discussed before. Nothing for the F8x other than replacing the rack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The top hat itself is the same, but it's rotated into a different orientation in-car. Check list 10 . . . I suspect the load path doesn't line up as neatly with the recessional motion path on the passenger side.

I think the 5 bolt mounts were an attempt to fix this problem, but didn't completely eliminate it. I've driven another members 2017 car in my test bump and the noise is there but mine is significantly worse.

Now the tough question: how to fix it?
The only reason the 5 bolt mount would increase steering feel is if there was too much compliance in the joint. Which is exactly the same thing that would cause this clunk noise.

The F3X and F8X gears are completely different, made by different suppliers. I haven't seen any actual evidence that the noise is coming from the steering gear on the F8X, and plenty of evidence indicates that this is the problem (on my car at least).
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 04:51 PM   #50
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

The LCI OEM documentation stated the 5-bolt change as part of the chassis changes to improve steering feel and suspension tuning. These changes started with late MY2015 F3x and F8x production.

Both steering gears show the clunk, some without suspension mods, most with the mods. You have quite eliminated all possible causes of this clink -except the steering rack. And that’s the part that BMW replaces when everything else fails to eliminate this noise - but only when the suspension is OEM. My brother’s 17 M3 has this clunk with Eibach V2, my 18 M3 with Eibach V1 does not. We are going to try the steering rack adjustment once we get the tool.

Most probably you have been the only person outside BMW that have gone this far in finding the root cause of this problem, and for that thank you very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The only reason the 5 bolt mount would increase steering feel is if there was too much compliance in the joint. Which is exactly the same thing that would cause this clunk noise.

The F3X and F8X gears are completely different, made by different suppliers. I haven't seen any actual evidence that the noise is coming from the steering gear on the F8X, and plenty of evidence indicates that this is the problem (on my car at least).
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 05:03 PM   #51
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
The LCI OEM documentation stated the 5-bolt change as part of the chassis changes to improve steering feel and suspension tuning. These changes started with late MY2015 F3x and F8x production.

Both steering gears show the clunk, some without suspension mods, most with the mods. You have quite eliminated all possible causes of this clink -except the steering rack. And that's the part that BMW replaces when everything else fails to eliminate this noise - but only when the suspension is OEM. My brother's 17 M3 has this clunk with Eibach V2, my 18 M3 with Eibach V1 does not. We are going to try the steering rack adjustment once we get the tool.

Most probably you have been the only person outside BMW that have gone this far in finding the root cause of this problem, and for that thank you very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The only reason the 5 bolt mount would increase steering feel is if there was too much compliance in the joint. Which is exactly the same thing that would cause this clunk noise.

The F3X and F8X gears are completely different, made by different suppliers. I haven't seen any actual evidence that the noise is coming from the steering gear on the F8X, and plenty of evidence indicates that this is the problem (on my car at least).
Being in this field, I'm familiar with the difference between what marketing materials claim vs why something was actually done. Both are true . . . Steering response is probably better, but that would only occur if the joint was insufficient rigid in the first place.

I'm not fully buying into the steering gear explanation yet because it doesn't fit with the evidence (on my car) but I'll certainly be happy to be wrong. At least that means it's fixable.

Keep us posted, looking forward to hearing if it solves the issue for you.

Note that my clunk is significantly louder and heavier than the clunk I heard on the 2017 car I drove. There very well could be multiple things going on here.
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 05:31 PM   #52
mitch32
Second Lieutenant
47
Rep
222
Posts

Drives: F82 ZCP
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Split: Montreal and Detroit

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The top hat itself is the same, but it's rotated into a different orientation in-car. Check list 10 . . . I suspect the load path doesn't line up as neatly with the recessional motion path on the passenger side.

I think the 5 bolt mounts were an attempt to fix this problem, but didn't completely eliminate it. I've driven another members 2017 car in my test bump and the noise is there but mine is significantly worse.

Now the tough question: how to fix it?
That other members car is a 2016 with competition pack and 5 bolt top mounts!!!! I also work in the industry as Racer20, after reviewing the video and discussion I'm very convinced its not the steering rack causing the noise.

Last edited by mitch32; 09-05-2019 at 05:51 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 06:13 PM   #53
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitch32 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The top hat itself is the same, but it's rotated into a different orientation in-car. Check list 10 . . . I suspect the load path doesn't line up as neatly with the recessional motion path on the passenger side.

I think the 5 bolt mounts were an attempt to fix this problem, but didn't completely eliminate it. I've driven another members 2017 car in my test bump and the noise is there but mine is significantly worse.

Now the tough question: how to fix it?
That other members car is a 2016 with competition pack and 5 bolt top mounts!!!! I also work in the industry as Racer20, after reviewing the video and discussion I'm very convinced its not the steering rack causing the noise.
Oops, I thought yours was a 2017. Thanks for the help Mitch!

The dealer's "area rep" was out today and is looking into the steering gear issue. I don't have faith that this can be solved at the dealer level beyond just replacing random parts and claiming it's fixed, but we'll see wheat they say.
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 08:00 PM   #54
moonluv810
Private First Class
172
Rep
158
Posts

Drives: 2018 BMW M3
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Broomfield, CO

iTrader: (0)

Guys,

Another data point.

Mine is a '18 purchased in Dec '17 with Sept '17 build date. It has 5-bolt mount obviously.
I installed M Performance HAS in April '19 with 7.8k miles on the odo. The car is lowered a couple mm below the recommended height.

I started hearing this metal to metal clunking about a couple months ago, ~10k miles on the odo. I checked and rechecked all nuts and bolts based on factory torque setting.
I'm getting frustrated and thinking of bringing the car to the dealership for them to deal with it.
Appreciate 1
Racer20827.50

      09-05-2019, 09:04 PM   #55
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

A chassis design expert buddy of mine who works at another OEM looked up their chassis measurements on the 2018 M4 that they use for benchmarking, and the stock M4 shows almost 0 bump steer for the first inch+ of travel up and down from the stock 2passenger ride height.

His quick take was that moderate lowering probably wouldn't increase the loads on the steering gear too much. With the MPHAS at least, the stock travel limits are retained, so the tierods and steering gear should still be operating well within their design limits.

Again . . . Just a quick take based on an email discussion based on the evidence found on my car only. If BMW is willing to replace your steering gear under warranty, have it at and cross your fingers.
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 1
      09-06-2019, 12:05 PM   #56
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Adjusting the steering rack screw solved my brotherís 17 M3 clunk. Took car to dealer to replace cracking seats emblems and asked shop foreman to adjust rack at our cost. We provided tool as they did not have any -they just replace steering rack, we were told. We did tell foreman to mark the OEM position of bolt and turn clockwise no more than 1/8 of turn. They did.

No questions asked about adjustment (1 hour of labor) or black seat emblems replacing the cracked silver ones. Steering feel is no different but wheel is crooked by millimeters, wheel alignment will be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Being in this field, I'm familiar with the difference between what marketing materials claim vs why something was actually done. Both are true . . . Steering response is probably better, but that would only occur if the joint was insufficient rigid in the first place.

I'm not fully buying into the steering gear explanation yet because it doesn't fit with the evidence (on my car) but I'll certainly be happy to be wrong. At least that means it's fixable.

Keep us posted, looking forward to hearing if it solves the issue for you.

Note that my clunk is significantly louder and heavier than the clunk I heard on the 2017 car I drove. There very well could be multiple things going on here.
Appreciate 1
ptper355.50

      09-06-2019, 12:39 PM   #57
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 12:53 PM   #58
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
Interesting. Where did you get the tool? Do you have video of your clunk (or his)? Did he just get it done today?
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 01:33 PM   #59
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Interesting. Where did you get the tool? Do you have video of your clunk (or his)? Did he just get it done today?
https://servicems.eu/specialnyj-inst...ring-rack.html.. not cheap.

Clunk was exactly like yours -left side, compression clunk. This was done this morning at dealer.
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 06:48 PM   #60
moonluv810
Private First Class
172
Rep
158
Posts

Drives: 2018 BMW M3
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Broomfield, CO

iTrader: (0)

Brought the car in to the dealer and took the tech out for a drive. He picked up the noise pretty quickly. After troubleshooting for a couple hours, he couldn't pinpoint the root cause. I'm not technically inclined to explain what Racer has done.

The tech suggested replacing the driver side strut under warranty as part of troubleshooting the issue. I insisted replacing both sides, but they declined. The car is 2 year old with 11.3k miles. Should I be concerned with replacing only one strut?

TIA!
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 07:26 PM   #61
Racer20
Major
United_States
828
Rep
1,106
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonluv810 View Post
Brought the car in to the dealer and took the tech out for a drive. He picked up the noise pretty quickly. After troubleshooting for a couple hours, he couldn't pinpoint the root cause. I'm not technically inclined to explain what Racer has done.

The tech suggested replacing the driver side strut under warranty as part of troubleshooting the issue. I insisted replacing both sides, but they declined. The car is 2 year old with 11.3k miles. Should I be concerned with replacing only one strut?

TIA!
No
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2019, 11:59 AM   #62
erik-f80
Enlisted Member
erik-f80's Avatar
Germany
2
Rep
45
Posts

Drives: BMW F80
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
https://servicems.eu/specialnyj-inst...ring-rack.html.. not cheap.

Clunk was exactly like yours -left side, compression clunk. This was done this morning at dealer.
So, am i right that the clunk is solved with this tool by turning the bolt clockwise not more than 1/8" ?

That means that the F80 has also this bolt? I read somewhere that the design is different than the F30 rack.

What is the price for this tool? Because on their Page is no price.
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2019, 01:24 PM   #63
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by erik-f80 View Post
So, am i right that the clunk is solved with this tool by turning the bolt clockwise not more than 1/8" ?

That means that the F80 has also this bolt? I read somewhere that the design is different than the F30 rack.
This 2017 M3 left front clunk was solved by following the F30 forum thread of their steering clunk. The 1/8 of clockwise turn (not by inch) was also suggested in that thread.

Quote:
What is the price for this tool? Because on their Page is no price.
Click the “Price by request” button on the page for the price. That vendor was also mentioned in the F30 thread.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2019, 01:42 PM   #64
rezN
Private First Class
rezN's Avatar
25
Rep
118
Posts

Drives: M4 Austin Yellow
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pleasanton, CA

iTrader: (3)

No need to buy that tool. Just go to home depot and get a universal socket set. I think its the 5/8 that fits the nut/bolt.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Crescent...-204064337-_-N
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2019, 02:45 PM   #65
ptper
Captain
356
Rep
918
Posts

Drives: '18 Avus Blue F80
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: MD

iTrader: (1)

Was there a service bulletin for the F30 steering rack fix?
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2019, 06:14 PM   #66
Encanto
Major
Encanto's Avatar
467
Rep
1,212
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezN View Post
No need to buy that tool. Just go to home depot and get a universal socket set. I think its the 5/8 that fits the nut/bolt.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Crescent...-204064337-_-N
Bolt has 3 holes, not Torx, Allen, or Hex.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST