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      03-20-2014, 07:11 PM   #23
Below Speed Limit
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I drove Porsche with EPS and while I will agree that it's a massive improvement over to something like a 335 or a 550, it is not like the M5's (or M3's) hydraulic steering. It cannot be and it won't be. You can try to replicate it for as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is, EPS is not hydraulic steering. It's as simple as 2 x 2 = 4.

That being said, I think people are going to "adjust" to this the way they will adjust to the turbo engine. I was so against turbo engine and used to swear I would never give up an NA engine. After doing multiple M5/M6 test drives, I was sold on the idea completely. It's an entirely different game all together. I don't regret going to M5 and turbo engine just one bit.

I believe EPS will be somewhat similar. It will feel a bit weird, but people will get used to it. So my only advice is, STOP comparing it to hydraulic, and ACCEPT that it will be different. Whichever one is BETTER is debatable and time will only tell and the results will be different from person to person.

Do you remember how people used to object iphone 6-7 years ago when it first came out? "Oh it doesn't have real keys" or "Oh it's a hype and it will die down". What happened? Evolution.
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      03-20-2014, 08:00 PM   #24
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I hope they got this right, because it's the reason BMW has been getting blown away in most recent comparo's.

Still not sure of the benefit of 0.3L/100km savings. I know every bit helps, but thats really a TINY bit.
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      03-20-2014, 08:27 PM   #25
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My opinion is that we should probably take it easy with regards to a lot of the comments we hear of various EPS systems during car reviews.

These cars are being driven at 9.5-10/10 of their limit in most of these tests, and that's where we hear slight complaints regarding some systems. That's to say that at a car's limit, sure, this is where we hear about the "numb" comments. For those of you that are track warriors; I get it, it might take some getting used to. However, for the majority of us who won't be seeing much track time, I do not believe it will be anywhere near as large of an adjustment as we think and are being led to believe.

Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who has extensive experience behind the wheel of both an e46 and e60;

I recently drove a 2014 435i with all the MPPK options (however many there are, I haven't been keeping educated with regards to these new options). Included in these versions (I was told!!) was a new steering rack. I took the car for about 10 minutes to try out the EPS. Sure, it didn't feel entirely the same as a hydraulic setup, however I did not and will not have any issues dealing with it on a day to day basis. In the sport and sport+ modes, I can confidently say I will be pleased, again, on a day to day basis. And this is saying a lot, as I'm sure the EPS on the M3/4 will be lightyears ahead of this. Mind you, my father recently purchased an A7. That is the type of EPS where there is absolute numbness in all settings, and guess what, its because it was setup to respond in that manner, purely for luxury and ease of operation. So I get that there are some systems out there that poorly represent this new EPS world, however I do not believe the majority of us will have any issues with the new system on a day to day basis.

I would love to hear from some of the steady track-goers regarding their experiences with EPS once the time comes. In that regard, I can't say too much and I look forward to getting some feedback.
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      03-20-2014, 08:32 PM   #26
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I'm pretty confident that BMW is launching all of these arbitrary models (X4, 4 Series GC, 2 Series minivan looking thing, etc.) so they have more money for R&D to make the REAL BMW's. Developing an entirely new platform, turbo system and steering for a car that is NOT going to be massively produced is by NO means cheap. BMW can make a FWD 4.5 GT Msport Xline whatever if it means more $$ to invest in cool projects like these. It's not diluting a brand - it's separating car enthusiasts from brand fanboys and the average joe who wants a sweet ride.

Good work BMW.
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      03-20-2014, 08:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M3Owner
I honestly just can't wait to see reviews of this car so i can finally determine what i want after my M3
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      03-20-2014, 08:58 PM   #28
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The EPS in my 2010 MK6 GTI wasn't too bad, I thought it was a pretty good system. I'm sure This new system will be great since they spent plenty of time and R&D on it, it's not just the standard system with a M badge on it.
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      03-20-2014, 08:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
I drove Porsche with EPS and while I will agree that it's a massive improvement over to something like a 335 or a 550, it is not like the M5's (or M3's) hydraulic steering. It cannot be and it won't be. You can try to replicate it for as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is, EPS is not hydraulic steering. It's as simple as 2 x 2 = 4.

That being said, I think people are going to "adjust" to this the way they will adjust to the turbo engine. I was so against turbo engine and used to swear I would never give up an NA engine. After doing multiple M5/M6 test drives, I was sold on the idea completely. It's an entirely different game all together. I don't regret going to M5 and turbo engine just one bit.

I believe EPS will be somewhat similar. It will feel a bit weird, but people will get used to it. So my only advice is, STOP comparing it to hydraulic, and ACCEPT that it will be different. Whichever one is BETTER is debatable and time will only tell and the results will be different from person to person.

Do you remember how people used to object iphone 6-7 years ago when it first came out? "Oh it doesn't have real keys" or "Oh it's a hype and it will die down". What happened? Evolution.
You make really good points about evolution and we will get used to it. When I drove the 235i I found it very smooth and precise. I made a comment about it not having feedback that I like and have in my 3 past bmws. Some assumed I hated it. That was not the case. If I had never owned two e46 and 1M it would be fine. I actually thought it was better than 135i. The thing that worries me is that BMW pushes itself to offer more feel because we demand it. If no one gripes about it, they wouldn't care. So I
Applaud the effort but they need to focus on the
Feedback before the gadgets like auto park, and
Custom settings. Don't get me wrong here. If the feel is great then add all the settings you want but it feels like they replace feedback with buttons and that's a high price to pay when you are being sold an expensive Ultimate Driving Machine
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      03-20-2014, 09:10 PM   #30
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Thanks Jason, very helpful. I sure hope this guy is right.
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      03-20-2014, 09:29 PM   #31
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Proof is in the pudding. >>> media drives and then personal test drives....
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      03-20-2014, 11:31 PM   #32
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Good post. Thanks.

Well, it's understandable the amount of effort BMW put into the new steering. Didn't we read in one of the initial interviews or press releases that this car was focused around the steering, which also includes suspension of course. It's no surprise, and I'm not too worried, because BMW HAS to get this right. If there's one car that defines BMW it's the M3. They have so much name equity in this that if they mess this up, I feel it would be the beginning of the end for BMW as an enthusiast car.

Not sure how I feel about the 3 different settings. With so many possible combos in steering, suspension, whatever, I can see how there will be something to please most everyone. And that seems smart of BMW. I just prefer something more simple. Set it and forget. Accept that it's a sports car and not a luxury liner.

I agree the new system will just take some getting used to. I too test drove a 235 a while back, and even by the end of the 15 min test, I was used to the steering. When I got back in my E46 M3, sure I noticed the difference. But I'd still say the 235 was pretty decent, just different.
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      03-21-2014, 12:23 AM   #33
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I'm not sure why people get so hung up on magazine reviews. Drive a car and if you like it buy it and or lease it. Just because magazines are giving more favor to other cars for once doesn't mean much. I've driven some of the newer Audi and Mercedes offerings and they are quite numb. The Q50S is garbage.

If you don't like EPS get another BMW offering or get an M5. At least BMW are Porsche are trying to make their cars lighter and more powerful even in the face and wake of looming and dooming laws.

First world problems for sure...
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      03-21-2014, 12:34 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketBoots View Post

Not sure how I feel about the 3 different settings. With so many possible combos in steering, suspension, whatever, I can see how there will be something to please most everyone. And that seems smart of BMW. I just prefer something more simple. Set it and forget. Accept that it's a sports car and not a luxury liner.
^^^^^^Well said.^^^^^^

I'm curious if it defaults to "comfort" every time you start the car. I hate that in my F30. I want to be in control of the default setting.
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      03-21-2014, 01:19 AM   #35
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Perhaps some details were lost in translation or perhaps due to a non-native English speaker, but I found the article to be an awful lot of typical BMW ///Marketing gum flapping without too much content. What does one expect this fellow to say, that the steering sucks compared to hydraulic or perhaps that they did not meet their internal goals? Of course he also left out cost reduction as a big driver in the choice to go electric. Next I will point out that the system is provided and manufactured by ZF, not by BMW. As with most supplier sourced parts some engineering is done by both OEM and supplier. It clearly sounds from the interview that BMW did most of the design/engineering. BMW is taking a bit too much credit in this and for the positive traits of the system. They asked ZF for something and ZF delivered according to their specification. It's also interesting to note more and more software going into the steering. Hopefully there won't be many or any significant updates to fix small bugs... Last but not least, I strongly suspect that there will be a very positive reception and reviews for the steering in the cars. Porsche are using a very similar system even in the GT3 and it has gotten very good reviews.

Oh the travesty, PDK only and EPS in the GT3. The skies really must be falling.
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      03-21-2014, 04:40 AM   #36
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Active return to center is really a function I wish I could turn off on my car... Or at least I wish it was only active in normal mode. Great job they started thinking more deeply about these things through the development of the new M car.

Now waiting for the people buying the M3 as a luxury item, and starting to complain that the steering is not comfortable enough - if they have done this correctly you will need to drive this car with two hands on the wheels.
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      03-21-2014, 07:20 AM   #37
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I can't wait to go and test drive this car.
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      03-21-2014, 07:25 AM   #38
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Cool read. When do car mags review this couplet?
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      03-21-2014, 09:23 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
I drove Porsche with EPS and while I will agree that it's a massive improvement over to something like a 335 or a 550, it is not like the M5's (or M3's) hydraulic steering. It cannot be and it won't be. You can try to replicate it for as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is, EPS is not hydraulic steering. It's as simple as 2 x 2 = 4.

That being said, I think people are going to "adjust" to this the way they will adjust to the turbo engine. I was so against turbo engine and used to swear I would never give up an NA engine. After doing multiple M5/M6 test drives, I was sold on the idea completely. It's an entirely different game all together. I don't regret going to M5 and turbo engine just one bit.

I believe EPS will be somewhat similar. It will feel a bit weird, but people will get used to it. So my only advice is, STOP comparing it to hydraulic, and ACCEPT that it will be different. Whichever one is BETTER is debatable and time will only tell and the results will be different from person to person.

Do you remember how people used to object iphone 6-7 years ago when it first came out? "Oh it doesn't have real keys" or "Oh it's a hype and it will die down". What happened? Evolution.
Can't agree. Their eps is fantastic. 991 eps is far better than m5s hydraulic. And the gt3 embarrasses it. The gt3 with eps has more steering feel than any car I've ever driven other than a previous gen gt3. Porsche got eps right...it will be a while before anyone else does.

Just look at the fact that the 991s/4s won best drivers car over all other hydraulic steered cars yet everyone agreed it has more feel and precision.
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      03-21-2014, 10:10 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Perhaps some details were lost in translation or perhaps due to a non-native English speaker, but I found the article to be an awful lot of typical BMW ///Marketing gum flapping without too much content. What does one expect this fellow to say, that the steering sucks compared to hydraulic or perhaps that they did not meet their internal goals? Of course he also left out cost reduction as a big driver in the choice to go electric. Next I will point out that the system is provided and manufactured by ZF, not by BMW. As with most supplier sourced parts some engineering is done by both OEM and supplier. It clearly sounds from the interview that BMW did most of the design/engineering. BMW is taking a bit too much credit in this and for the positive traits of the system. They asked ZF for something and ZF delivered according to their specification. It's also interesting to note more and more software going into the steering. Hopefully there won't be many or any significant updates to fix small bugs... Last but not least, I strongly suspect that there will be a very positive reception and reviews for the steering in the cars. Porsche are using a very similar system even in the GT3 and it has gotten very good reviews.

Oh the travesty, PDK only and EPS in the GT3. The skies really must be falling.
I think Porsche's system is also supplied by ZF. The new Stingray and the Bugatti Veyron also apparently have EPS systems.

http://m.cnet.com/news/power-steerin...ctric/57618685
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      03-21-2014, 11:48 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine F31
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketBoots View Post

Not sure how I feel about the 3 different settings. With so many possible combos in steering, suspension, whatever, I can see how there will be something to please most everyone. And that seems smart of BMW. I just prefer something more simple. Set it and forget. Accept that it's a sports car and not a luxury liner.
^^^^^^Well said.^^^^^^

I'm curious if it defaults to "comfort" every time you start the car. I hate that in my F30. I want to be in control of the default setting.
The right answer here is leaving the car in the mode you like the most and some sort of setup that remembers that everytime you start the car. This would be akin to start stop.
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      03-21-2014, 12:03 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Perhaps some details were lost in translation or perhaps due to a non-native English speaker, but I found the article to be an awful lot of typical BMW ///Marketing gum flapping without too much content. What does one expect this fellow to say, that the steering sucks compared to hydraulic or perhaps that they did not meet their internal goals? Of course he also left out cost reduction as a big driver in the choice to go electric. Next I will point out that the system is provided and manufactured by ZF, not by BMW. As with most supplier sourced parts some engineering is done by both OEM and supplier. It clearly sounds from the interview that BMW did most of the design/engineering. BMW is taking a bit too much credit in this and for the positive traits of the system. They asked ZF for something and ZF delivered according to their specification. It's also interesting to note more and more software going into the steering. Hopefully there won't be many or any significant updates to fix small bugs... Last but not least, I strongly suspect that there will be a very positive reception and reviews for the steering in the cars. Porsche are using a very similar system even in the GT3 and it has gotten very good reviews.

Oh the travesty, PDK only and EPS in the GT3. The skies really must be falling.
Most of what's made Porsche the benchmark here too is their tuning of the eps. But the 991 Carrera models are fantastic, the new GT3, as I said beats anything short of a period gen GT3. Any other hydraulic wishes it had the feel and precision of the 991 eps.
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      03-21-2014, 12:04 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Perhaps some details were lost in translation or perhaps due to a non-native English speaker, but I found the article to be an awful lot of typical BMW ///Marketing gum flapping without too much content. What does one expect this fellow to say, that the steering sucks compared to hydraulic or perhaps that they did not meet their internal goals? Of course he also left out cost reduction as a big driver in the choice to go electric...

Oh the travesty, PDK only and EPS in the GT3. The skies really must be falling.
I agree the article said a lot of fluff, but didn't really tell us anything. The so-called gains - weight reduction, energy/fuel efficiency - are laughable. I DO think cost savings plays a big part.

One thing I extracted from the article, however, is the amount of software involved, especially when tied in with the adaptive suspension. This allows an easier path to fix bugs, much like iOS, Windows, whatever releases version 1.1 or 2.0 to fix "bugs". Steering goes a little haywire? Flash the software. Not quite the feel people are expecting/wanting? Flash the software. A lot easier than designing, engineering, manufacturing an improved part. Sounds like science fiction a bit; the sky really is falling chicken little
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      03-21-2014, 12:26 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
The right answer here is leaving the car in the mode you like the most and some sort of setup that remembers that everytime you start the car. This would be akin to start stop.
I would bet it will behave like the F1x M5/M6. They default everything to the softest setting at startup. On the plus side you get two M Buttons so you can set one to be your preferred daily defaults and the other to be your preferred "play-time" settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketBoots View Post
I DO think cost savings plays a big part.
Cost savings play a big part in every aspect of product design, so you are right.
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