M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

The power reduction after a few laps is concerning but expected. More concerning is how fast it goes through battery. They said max 30 laps of VIR 1.5mile track. They were given two cars to perform tests and depleted both of them at the end of the morning. This is a no go for track days, there are not superchargers to go plug into between sessions. Personally think we are at least another generation, maybe two generations from electric cars being viable consumer track/daily drivers. It most likely will have to be solid state batteries tech get to electric to cars to that point. They are very quick on the street.

Sonoma has L2 chargers on site. A usual day has 4 x 20 minute sessions and you'd do ~10 laps per session. There's a few hours of waiting time during the day, so it should be possible even today to use a Tesla for DEs if the track has L2 chargers or a 240V/32A outlet on site

Regardless of EV viability, I think the really hardcore track user is going to keep using the old lightweight gas cars as the track car.

My personal ideal scenario would be to have an EV tow rig autonomously hook itself up to a trailer, and autonomously drive me to the track while I get some more sleep

[CosmosMpower]

I was loaned a Tesla Model 3 performance by Tesla for a day, it's pretty impressive. The acceleration from a roll starting from 20-40 up to 80-90 is pretty nuts. Instant torque with lots of traction and no drama. I did several 0-60 runs with my AIM Solo 2 and got low to mid 3's with a passenger in the car. The power delivery at any speed below 90 feels like a tuned S55 on full boost instantly but with full traction. The only car I've owned that had close to this kind of power delivery and traction was my R35 GT-R and even that had a lot more lag.

I ran into a F80 ZCP on the highway in it and he honked at me then took off so I played around with him a little. We exited and at the light he started talking crap to me. I messed with him and told him his car is slow and he said "whatever, you're driving a flashlight". I messed with him a bit more and said it would kick your M3's ass and he drove off.

Compared to my F80 with JB4 on E85 map from a roll I have no doubt the Tesla Model 3 performance would walk away till about 100 as it would from a stop. The instant torque and traction are brutal. Honestly the car is a bit more comfortable, roomy and quiet than the M3 also as an everyday car. I'm pretty impressed, I wished it looked a bit more aggressive as it looks like a space age egg. If you don't take your car to the track, use it mostly for city driving this car is hard to beat for the price. Strongly considering punting my F80 to get one.

[CosmosMpower]

Just ran a friend's F80 with pure stage 2 turbos, DCT, boltons etc. on some deserted highway in Mexico. From a stop it was a massacre, he got no traction and I had about 5 cars by 100. From a 20 mph roll it was pretty dead even till about 85 and then the M3 steadily pulled away. Same story from 40 to about 85.

The torque and traction are great under 90 mph after that ICE wins.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Just ran a friend's F80 with pure stage 2 turbos, DCT, boltons etc. on some deserted highway in Mexico. From a stop it was a massacre, he got no traction and I had about 5 cars by 100. From a 20 mph roll it was pretty dead even till about 85 and then the M3 steadily pulled away. Same story from 40 to about 85.

The torque and traction are great under 90 mph after that ICE wins.

Nice runs.

Really surprised that it's that close from a roll vs an f80 with bigger turbos

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Nice runs.

Really surprised that it's that close from a roll vs an f80 with bigger turbos

We were both surprised I think part of it was still a lack of traction from the F80 from 20-45 mph but we tried a 35 mph start and it was still about the same, close to 80-85 and M3 pulled away after 90.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

We were both surprised I think part of it was still a lack of traction from the F80 from 20-45 mph but we tried a 35 mph start and it was still about the same, close to 80-85 and M3 pulled away after 90.

Is a pure turbo stage 2 car a ~600whp car? I really thought that would be pulling away by bus lengths after it hooked up

My 996TT has some mild power adders and cup 2 tires (still retains AWD) and model 3 performance felt slower from a roll to me.

If model 3 performance can hang with a 600whp F80 from a roll, that maybe my seat of the pants is needing a recalibration. I wish you were nearby so we could do a friendly roll race down in Mexico to help me make up my mind

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Is a pure turbo stage 2 car a ~600whp car? I really thought that would be pulling away by bus lengths after it hooked up

My 996TT has some mild power adders and cup 2 tires (still retains AWD) and model 3 performance felt slower from a roll to me.

If model 3 performance can hang with a 600whp F80 from a roll, that maybe my seat of the pants is needing a recalibration. I wish you were nearby so we could do a friendly roll race down in Mexico to help me make up my mind

Its pretty damn quick from a roll. I think the lack of drama in the acceleration (sound etc) makes it seem like it's not as fast. I test drove one this past weekend again with my wife and from 40/50 to 100 happens in almost no time, to the point that I didn't notice I was going that fast until my wife told me to slow down.

[CigarPundit]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Is a pure turbo stage 2 car a ~600whp car? I really thought that would be pulling away by bus lengths after it hooked up

My 996TT has some mild power adders and cup 2 tires (still retains AWD) and model 3 performance felt slower from a roll to me.

If model 3 performance can hang with a 600whp F80 from a roll, that maybe my seat of the pants is needing a recalibration. I wish you were nearby so we could do a friendly roll race down in Mexico to help me make up my mind

How many times and under what conditions can a Model 3 do this though? Are we talking once on a fresh charge, or repeatedly after driving 50 miles? I do find it surprising that it can hang with a 600 hp car from a 35-40 mph roll. Impressive if true. Still not interested though

[CigarPundit]

I’m having trouble understanding how a 450 hp, 4000 pound Model 3 is keeping up with a 600 hp 3500 pound M3 from a 35 mph roll. Has Elon repealed the laws of physics?

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

I'm having trouble understanding how a 450 hp, 4000 pound Model 3 is keeping up with a 600 hp 3500 pound M3 from a 35 mph roll. Has Elon repealed the laws of physics?

Instant torque and AWD vs boost build and RWD. It's honestly not that hard to understand. Also remember while the Model 3 only have passenger weight, the M3 has passenger and fuel weight.

[CigarPundit]

Well, it is what it is, but I find it counter-intuitive. Attained speed over a given distance is mainly a function of power and weight. Torque and AWD advantages should not be able to overcome the power/weight gap, at least from my intuition. Traction shouldn't be much of an issue from 35 MPH. But I haven't done the math.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

I’m having trouble understanding how a 450 hp, 4000 pound Model 3 is keeping up with a 600 hp 3500 pound M3 from a 35 mph roll. Has Elon repealed the laws of physics?

Yeah, not buying the roll races results. Nick Murray ran his bone stock M4 basically even with a P100D from a roll.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

Yeah, not buying the roll races results. Nick Murray ran his bone stock M4 basically even with a P100D from a roll.

It was a P90D before the ludicrous refresh.

If you search M4 vs Tesla, there are a few videos showing the opposite result.

Also their rolls like they were from 60 so by the time you get to 85 the Model S cannot keep up which is what that poster said about the Model 3.

Not trying to say you are wrong or that Tesla is the answer, just trying to provide some clarification.

[CigarPundit]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

It was a P90D before the ludicrous refresh.

Unless I was misinterpreting the video, the cars were pretty even from a roll until around 85, when the 700 HP Model S pulled away. This only makes me more skeptical that the Model 3 can keep up with a 600 hp M3 from a roll up to 85 mph. Anyway, cool video, so thanks. I have no first hand knowledge here and I don’t mean to flame. I don’t know the answer. Just giving my impressions.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

Unless I was misinterpreting the video, the cars were pretty even from a roll until around 85, when the 700 HP Model S pulled away. This only makes me more skeptical that the Model 3 can keep up with a 600 hp M3 from a roll up to 85 mph. Anyway, cool video, so thanks. I have no first hand knowledge here and I don’t mean to flame. I don’t know the answer. Just giving my impressions.

Of course, we are all here just discussing scenarios and having a good time. I guess my point was that a Model 3 has different driving dynamics than the S. And what I mean by that is acceleration on the roll in the Model 3 performance i test drove felt much much quicker than the P100D I test drove, whereas the P100D would have been faster of the line.

I'm sure there will be videos out soon enough. I think about 85/90 the M3 is gone (especially tunes).

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

How many times and under what conditions can a Model 3 do this though? Are we talking once on a fresh charge, or repeatedly after driving 50 miles? I do find it surprising that it can hang with a 600 hp car from a 35-40 mph roll. Impressive if true. Still not interested though

With no disrespect meant, no one is trying to convince you.

There are several of us who are interested in ordering and are sharing our IRL test drive experiences.

Another possibility is the pure turbo car is not making the advertised power. Ideally should have been heads up race at a 1/2 mile or 1 mile event where we can see the splits and mph at various time points.

[CigarPundit]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

With no disrespect meant, no one is trying to convince you.

There are several of us who are interested in ordering and are sharing our IRL test drive experiences.

Another possibility is the pure turbo car is not making the advertised power. Ideally should have been heads up race at a 1/2 mile or 1 mile event where we can see the splits and mph at various time points.

None taken. And I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from a Model 3. To each his own. Just reacting to what seems like a questionable report. I’ve been in a friend’s P80D and I don’t deny that Teslas are silly fun in the acceleration department.

[nicknaz]

Just wanted to update that I got off the fence and ordered a model 3 performance today.

Got it with the "performance" option so I can get the "track mode" stability control program. Will take it to Sonoma when I get it in ~2 months and report back on how it does

If anyone in NorCal does DE or TT days in a stock f80, please PM me. Would love to do a friendly comparo to supplement all of the bench racing and ICE vs EV generalizations flying around the thread.

Edit: Despite it being an EV I'm as excited as when I placed my euro delivery order in Dec 2014

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Just wanted to update that I got off the fence and ordered a model 3 performance today.

Got it with the "performance" option so I can get the "track mode" stability control program. Will take it to Sonoma when I get it in ~2 months and report back on how it does

If anyone in NorCal does DE or TT days in a stock f80, please PM me. Would love to do a friendly comparo to supplement all of the bench racing and ICE vs EV generalizations flying around the thread.

Edit: Despite it being an EV I'm as excited as when I placed my euro delivery order in Dec 2014

Congrats!! Keep us posted.. would love to hear your thoughts once it arrives.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by JTO24

Congrats!! Keep us posted.. would love to hear your thoughts once it arrives.

Pretty sure I'm going to like the car a lot. I have a 140hp/327ftlb/80mi range fwd EV that I love and 450hp/310 Mike range awd EV is a straight up upgrade.

I'm also keeping gassers around for sport usage so not too much worry if it ends up being a street/commuting champ but less polished at the track

[IS350]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Pretty sure I'm going to like the car a lot. I have a 140hp/327ftlb/80mi range fwd EV that I love and 450hp/310 Mike range awd EV is a straight up upgrade.

I'm also keeping gassers around for sport usage so not too much worry if it ends up being a street/commuting champ but less polished at the track

Congrats! Did you do the full self driving upgrade? (Even though it's law dependent?)

I'm in a Z06 rental this week, and am now seriously considering this, over the Tesla. It's so quick and that sound! Plus, the stereo tops my M3's, the HUD actually works with my sunglasses and the top comes off, lol. If only I never needed a backseat!

Are you expecting to use the EV tax credit? I was all excited about it, but line 47 on my tax return is like $800 last year, looks like I'd need to sell some stock for a loss to get the $7500!

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by IS350

Congrats! Did you do the full self driving upgrade? (Even though it's law dependent?)
I'm in a Z06 rental this week, and am now seriously considering this, over the Tesla. It's so quick and that sound!

Plus, the stereo tops my M3's, the HUD actually works with my sunglasses and the top comes off, lol. If only I never needed a backseat!

Are you expecting to use the EV tax credit? I was all excited about it, but line 47 on my tax return is like $800 last year, looks like I'd need to sell some stock for a loss to get the $7500!

Yes I did do the full self driving (vaporware) option. Apparently the first set of features (over and above EAP) will be released soon so I wanted to have access.

I love the z06. But I want a c5z or c6z already modified for club racing instead of a street car.

That's awesome that you're able to minimize your tax liabilities to that extent. Yes, I do expect to use the federal ev tax credit. I need to look closely at the new rules for the Ca tax credit.

Get the gas sports or competition car AND the Tesla if possible. That way you have specialized and will get better outcomes for each of sport and commuting.