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      01-14-2020, 11:51 AM   #177
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Regardless who’s right or wrong, from my standpoint, I’m staying clear of VTT for my crank hub needs down the line.
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      01-14-2020, 12:08 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by BzsBimmer View Post
Regardless who’s right or wrong, from my standpoint, I’m staying clear of VTT for my crank hub needs down the line.
Unfortunately for the op and vendor, it's already well into the weird or hot mess zone.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's pretty likely a duck.

I hope the op gets this sorted to his sat.
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      01-14-2020, 12:37 PM   #179
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I think it's only slander when it's not true
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      01-14-2020, 01:01 PM   #180
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I'm trying really hard to be impartial, because it didn't happen to me. As a business owner, I don't like to see a business like VTT get irreparably damage or worst because of a few "3 documented" crank hub fix failures. Ok, they deserve to take a hit, but not wipe out from the face of the earth. Remember Tesla? Well, at one time they killed people developing their self driving cars. Toyota Prius with their sudden acceleration. Same thing, maim and killed people. Ford with their seatbelts that choke children etc, etc. No lives were lost here, but time and money. They're still here at the forum explaining, answering questions and having a dialogue with everyone. Second, they've developed a version 2 to improve their product. For me that speaks volumes. Do you guys know how difficult it is to start a business? That's even if you have the gonads to do it. Scraping everything you have and risking it all in hopes that it'll give you the independence doing what you love and be around cars. These guys didn't do it on purpose. My advise to VTT, bend forward and backward, ask how high do you want us to jump for Blackey and the others. And for the naysayers who are not the least bit affected, be mindful you can destroy families with children that depend on them with the stroke of a pen. My .02.
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      01-14-2020, 01:35 PM   #181
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I ran a motorsports racing business for several years and fully understand how reputation is very important for a small business. My request for a refund was just that, but my offer to keep it off the internet is being construed a bit different than it was intended.

My initial request was for a refund of the parts that failed no strings attached. This was the turbos and the crank hub. Once it became clear VTT was not going to do that, I offered to sign an NDA or confidentiality agreement to keep to keep it off the internet. If it were my business I would have wanted this offer as dealing with an issue like this on the internet can take on a life of it’s own, as we’ve seen. Chris shut this down very quickly, and stated that wasn’t the way they handled these sort of things (which is fine), and to feel free to post my story, which I did. End of story.

Deals like this are struck every day in courts across the country. Agreeing to not discuss the settlement / case in turn for some sort of compensation is not blackmail. This is a confidentiality clause, or an NDA. If VTT had taken that approach they would have recourse if the terms were broken, vs blackmail where they would not. This is what I offered VTT.

At this point this thread has run it course. My story is out, VTT's response to the issue is known. You guys can keep hashing it out, but I don't think there is much more to say.

I dropped off the new crankhub to EAS yesterday and hopefully will have a running car this week unless we find more damage, which I'm crossing my fingers we do not.
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      01-14-2020, 04:40 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by blackey View Post
I dropped off the new crankhub to EAS yesterday and hopefully will have a running car this week unless we find more damage, which I'm crossing my fingers we do not.
This is what matters in the end.
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      01-14-2020, 04:54 PM   #183
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Serialised and recorded batches with testing per batch would have helped narrow down affected owners.

This really goes for any vendor providing a part that has a complex and/or high installation cost. Especially if the part cannot be inspected without costly removal.
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      01-14-2020, 06:03 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackey View Post
I ran a motorsports racing business for several years and fully understand how reputation is very important for a small business. My request for a refund was just that, but my offer to keep it off the internet is being construed a bit different than it was intended.

My initial request was for a refund of the parts that failed no strings attached. This was the turbos and the crank hub. Once it became clear VTT was not going to do that, I offered to sign an NDA or confidentiality agreement to keep to keep it off the internet. If it were my business I would have wanted this offer as dealing with an issue like this on the internet can take on a life of it’s own, as we’ve seen. Chris shut this down very quickly, and stated that wasn’t the way they handled these sort of things (which is fine), and to feel free to post my story, which I did. End of story.

Deals like this are struck every day in courts across the country. Agreeing to not discuss the settlement / case in turn for some sort of compensation is not blackmail. This is a confidentiality clause, or an NDA. If VTT had taken that approach they would have recourse if the terms were broken, vs blackmail where they would not. This is what I offered VTT.

At this point this thread has run it course. My story is out, VTT's response to the issue is known. You guys can keep hashing it out, but I don't think there is much more to say.

I dropped off the new crankhub to EAS yesterday and hopefully will have a running car this week unless we find more damage, which I'm crossing my fingers we do not.
Bill,

Just a correction that you did not wait for us to refuse to issue you a refund in order for you to suggest you going public; that perspective and plan was clearly articulated in your first email to me dated 12/16. Previously having run a motorsports business, I expect you fully understood this and the implications.

This is a separate issue from the parts failure, should be treated as such, and while I have opinions on the approach, have attempted to maintain the focus on standing behind our products. I do appreciate some of the more astute observations from some of the members regarding this. Right or wrong, our product still let an enthusiast down and that's something we take seriously.

The issue with the turbos was fully resolved, and we assisted in the transfer of warranty to the new purchaser; normally something that is not done. We did this recognizing that, having been unsuccessful in obtaining a refund from us, you may have difficulty in selling them while going public per your email. BTW Tony tells me those shipped today.

As for the spline lock; it's unfortunate it slipped, however we did offer a V2 which would have a warranty against defects in material, workmanship, or slipping (provided installed at authorized installer such as EAS).

And here we are. At this point really not much more to say that hasn't already been said a few times.

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      01-14-2020, 06:38 PM   #185
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And on the phone call I let you know I would sign any sort of document (NDA etc...), which you were not interested in, correct?

Totally forgot about the email before hand to be honest, but the intent remains the same.
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      01-14-2020, 07:36 PM   #186
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And on the phone call I let you know I would sign any sort of document (NDA etc...), which you were not interested in, correct?
Wow! *grabs the popcorn*
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      01-14-2020, 09:08 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackey View Post
And on the phone call I let you know I would sign any sort of document (NDA etc...), which you were not interested in, correct?

Totally forgot about the email before hand to be honest, but the intent remains the same.
I don't recall the specifics of that convo with respect to what you're asserting. To be clear, I'm not saying you didn't say that, I'm saying as I'm writing this and thinking back, I don't remember. I'm not sure it makes a difference. A failed part is still a failed part and a threat is still a threat.

We prefer to work with people. Simply put everyone at VTT is an enthusiast if not an outright racer. We stand behind the products. Our warranty terms are simple and clear, and we often go above and beyond to try to help out if and when something goes wrong -not always related to our parts either. In business since 1978, we've held that position for quite some time.

I'm sorry your expectations were not met.

Chris
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      01-15-2020, 01:28 PM   #188
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The saga continues...
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      01-16-2020, 12:46 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by blackey View Post
I ran a motorsports racing business for several years and fully understand how reputation is very important for a small business. My request for a refund was just that, but my offer to keep it off the internet is being construed a bit different than it was intended.

My initial request was for a refund of the parts that failed no strings attached. This was the turbos and the crank hub. Once it became clear VTT was not going to do that, I offered to sign an NDA or confidentiality agreement to keep to keep it off the internet. If it were my business I would have wanted this offer as dealing with an issue like this on the internet can take on a life of it’s own, as we’ve seen. Chris shut this down very quickly, and stated that wasn’t the way they handled these sort of things (which is fine), and to feel free to post my story, which I did. End of story.

Deals like this are struck every day in courts across the country. Agreeing to not discuss the settlement / case in turn for some sort of compensation is not blackmail. This is a confidentiality clause, or an NDA. If VTT had taken that approach they would have recourse if the terms were broken, vs blackmail where they would not. This is what I offered VTT.

At this point this thread has run it course. My story is out, VTT's response to the issue is known. You guys can keep hashing it out, but I don't think there is much more to say.

I dropped off the new crankhub to EAS yesterday and hopefully will have a running car this week unless we find more damage, which I'm crossing my fingers we do not.
Hope to see you out at the track soon
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      01-26-2020, 04:08 AM   #190
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This is an awful situation for blackey, especially having to deal with a clueless vendor like this. Just give the man his money back. He is truly an ideal customer in a terrible situation. Not sure if they don't have the money to refund him or don't understand how good business is done. I would be thrilled if a customer approached me and offered to keep an issue private in exchange for a simple refund. Put your pride aside and make the smart decision for your business. Do you know what gains points with people more than being transparent? Doing the right thing and refunding his money You take the turbos back and just resell them to someone else. That costs you what, 1-2 weeks of cash flow? Or however long it takes you to sell a set.

The amount of time you have spent writing responses on these forums, combined with the people who will no longer purchase your products, makes this whole scenario seem silly. VTT is selling products to consumers. Consumers don't want you to post email conversations or dates when you spoke about the issue. We want to know that if we buy your product, and it fails, you have our back and will do the right thing.

You can have all the specific warranty terms you want, but this is not a normal situation. You have to make exceptions when it's a unique situation. This is a unique situation. You have a forum member who is very active in the community and offered you an easy out. You had two products that embarrassingly failed him. Why you didn't just take his offer and avoid this thread puzzles me.
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      01-26-2020, 04:19 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Continental02 View Post
This is an awful situation for blackey, especially having to deal with a clueless vendor like this. Just give the man his money back. He is truly an ideal customer in a terrible situation. Not sure if they don't have the money to refund him or don't understand how good business is done. I would be thrilled if a customer approached me and offered to keep an issue private in exchange for a simple refund. Put your pride aside and make the smart decision for your business. Do you know what gains points with people more than being transparent? Doing the right thing and refunding his money You take the turbos back and just resell them to someone else. That costs you what, 1-2 weeks of cash flow? Or however long it takes you to sell a set.

The amount of time you have spent writing responses on these forums, combined with the people who will no longer purchase your products, makes this whole scenario seem silly. VTT is selling products to consumers. Consumers don't want you to post email conversations or dates when you spoke about the issue. We want to know that if we buy your product, and it fails, you have our back and will do the right thing.

You can have all the specific warranty terms you want, but this is not a normal situation. You have to make exceptions when it's a unique situation. This is a unique situation. You have a forum member who is very active in the community and offered you an easy out. You had two products that embarrassingly failed him. Why you didn't just take his offer and avoid this thread puzzles me.
And now he’s leaving the platform all together
I’ve said all along VTT is Sus. They have done everything possible to validate my opinions
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      01-26-2020, 04:30 AM   #192
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And now he’s leaving the platform all together
I’ve said all along VTT is Sus. They have done everything possible to validate my opinions
Yeah, I saw that. It's such a shame to see him move away from the platform.

I had no previous opinion of VTT, but this thread definitely formed one. I'd be very cautious of a company that is so desperate or greedy to keep the revenue for one set of turbos they sold that malfunctioned so quickly.
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      01-27-2020, 05:07 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Continental02 View Post
This is an awful situation for blackey, especially having to deal with a clueless vendor like this. Just give the man his money back. He is truly an ideal customer in a terrible situation. Not sure if they don't have the money to refund him or don't understand how good business is done. I would be thrilled if a customer approached me and offered to keep an issue private in exchange for a simple refund. Put your pride aside and make the smart decision for your business. Do you know what gains points with people more than being transparent? Doing the right thing and refunding his money You take the turbos back and just resell them to someone else. That costs you what, 1-2 weeks of cash flow? Or however long it takes you to sell a set.

The amount of time you have spent writing responses on these forums, combined with the people who will no longer purchase your products, makes this whole scenario seem silly. VTT is selling products to consumers. Consumers don't want you to post email conversations or dates when you spoke about the issue. We want to know that if we buy your product, and it fails, you have our back and will do the right thing.

You can have all the specific warranty terms you want, but this is not a normal situation. You have to make exceptions when it's a unique situation. This is a unique situation. You have a forum member who is very active in the community and offered you an easy out. You had two products that embarrassingly failed him. Why you didn't just take his offer and avoid this thread puzzles me.
Sadly this is one of those cases where the vendor is simply daring the consumer to sue them before issuing any kind of refund. In California, an individual can file a claim for up to $10,000 against a business. It won't take many claims to really put an impact on a mid-size business which is why refunding $3-4k is much more affordable than taking multiple $10k claims.

I totally get the no refund stance on the GC turbo units but the V1 crank hub should at least be refunded or offer reimbursement for parts/labor on the V2 replacement. This is how businesses earn their reputation along with repeat customers.

It's a sucky situation for both sides.
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      01-27-2020, 06:03 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by illmatik View Post
Sadly this is one of those cases where the vendor is simply daring the consumer to sue them before issuing any kind of refund. In California, an individual can file a claim for up to $10,000 against a business. It won't take many claims to really put an impact on a mid-size business which is why refunding $3-4k is much more affordable than taking multiple $10k claims.

I totally get the no refund stance on the GC turbo units but the V1 crank hub should at least be refunded or offer reimbursement for parts/labor on the V2 replacement. This is how businesses earn their reputation along with repeat customers.

It's a sucky situation for both sides.
It just sucks for Blackey tbh. The vendor is doing well selling lots of parts despite poor product R + D execution on some of their products. All they had to do was remove the v1 hub from their test car and inspect the splines and markings on the crankshaft before selling it. Makes you wonder about the rest.
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      02-17-2020, 09:43 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continental02 View Post
This is an awful situation for blackey, especially having to deal with a clueless vendor like this. Just give the man his money back. He is truly an ideal customer in a terrible situation. Not sure if they don't have the money to refund him or don't understand how good business is done. I would be thrilled if a customer approached me and offered to keep an issue private in exchange for a simple refund. Put your pride aside and make the smart decision for your business. Do you know what gains points with people more than being transparent? Doing the right thing and refunding his money You take the turbos back and just resell them to someone else. That costs you what, 1-2 weeks of cash flow? Or however long it takes you to sell a set.

The amount of time you have spent writing responses on these forums, combined with the people who will no longer purchase your products, makes this whole scenario seem silly. VTT is selling products to consumers. Consumers don't want you to post email conversations or dates when you spoke about the issue. We want to know that if we buy your product, and it fails, you have our back and will do the right thing.

You can have all the specific warranty terms you want, but this is not a normal situation. You have to make exceptions when it's a unique situation. This is a unique situation. You have a forum member who is very active in the community and offered you an easy out. You had two products that embarrassingly failed him. Why you didn't just take his offer and avoid this thread puzzles me.
Just read this thread from start to finish in one hit because I'm researching solutions for my forthcoming mods.

I can tell you I'll not be buying a VTT solution, regardless of its marketing, based entirely on the content of this thread. Unfortunately, that's one sale you can say you've lost.

I'm not taking sides about the product - I'm seeing how it's been dealt with after the fact. And if I'm not buying, who else isn't buying and simply isn't typing it out that they're not?

That one sale to me would have covered the cost of the refund. How many other lost sales do you have now as a consequence?

The damage here is far wider than you seem to realize Chris. :/ Shame.
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      03-11-2020, 04:06 PM   #196
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OK, so short post now, I have a long write up as well, but not sure I will post that.

I had VTT V1 crank hub and CBC installed about 3000 miles ago. Unfortunately at Willow Springs this last weekend the car went into limp mode at the end of the first session with a drivetrain malfunction that showed both the intake and exhaust camshafts were out of position. EAS has torn the down to the crankhub and removed it to confirm the crankhub did indeed spin. Unfortunately they have also found a lot of metal in the oil filter, ,so it appears the engine has had further damage that still needs investigation.

Also just for full disclosure the GC2 turbos I had on the car failed the month before on their 1st session at Autoclub Speedway. The rear turbo had a sticky wastegate, the front turbo was leaking oil. VTT did replace these with fully rebuilt units, but after both failing I decided to install ASR Kratos instead.

So far without the engine rebuild I'm into the car for 7K related to failures of VTT products, including labor, towing fees, and rental cars. This is before we even get into diagnosing what happened to the motor.

More to come as we tear into this further.
Did Vargas pay for your expenses? I'm in a bit of a pickle with them as well at the moment.
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      03-11-2020, 04:13 PM   #197
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Did Vargas pay for your expenses? I'm in a bit of a pickle with them as well at the moment.
What happened? Are you at liberty to discuss at this point?
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      03-11-2020, 05:07 PM   #198
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This thread should be referenced for all the questions about a crankhub slip with a CBC installed.

This F80 had both the spline lock and CBC, and still failed.
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