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      09-23-2013, 03:30 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosz
M4 = Glorified 4 Series

Just kidding

But seriousluy the Gap is getting narrower between Bimmers these days

Power:
spend about 2k on a 435 you can get equivalent or more power of the engine
LOL at these kinds of proclamations. Jump to conclusions much?

How about wait until the weight and performance numbers and other specs are released before calling it a glorified anything.
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      09-23-2013, 03:31 PM   #112
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425hp is definitely under-rated. However, I will be interested to see what the competition package makes. Last year's model didn't see any delta in power from the standard to competition packages, but based on what has materialized with the M5, I am sure it'll be a bump to 450hp
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      09-23-2013, 03:32 PM   #113
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425? it's likely more 460-470 at the crank... need dynos
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      09-23-2013, 03:35 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecom32 View Post

We're still gaining 11 hp and 70 lb-ft of torque. Consider the weight reduction, severe underrating on BMW turbo engines, and ease of power gains with a turbo engine.

first time i have seen such small gains for next generation car.

the torque gains are there, hp gains are not. BUT its a sign that the horse power war is coming to a end possibility.

overall it really depends on what the competition does that will make this car desirable or not. if everyone switchs to more eco 6s than maybe this will work for me.
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      09-23-2013, 03:36 PM   #115
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Very nice. Thanks for the info.
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      09-23-2013, 03:36 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosz View Post
Now that the GAP is this narrow, I think only truly hardcore enthusiasts/track drivers would go for an M4.
Not sure even about this last point.

I bought my M3s mostly to have a good DD car that I can also track. I don't need the performance of an M3 on the street.

I am not convinced about the M4 in that respect. I am starting to feel it is loosing that tracking edge...
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      09-23-2013, 03:37 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosz View Post
M4 = Glorified 4 Series

Just kidding

But seriousluy the Gap is getting narrower between Bimmers these days

Power:
spend about 2k on a 435 you can get equivalent or more power of the engine

Looks:
M sport looks very similar to the M4 body kit (to the untrained eye), especially the M-performance body parts looks almost identical

Tranny:
ZF8 on 435/335 F30 etc is almost as fast and precise as a DCT. And now it even has launch control.

Price:
Still a HUGE Gap, while all other gaps are narrowing

Back in the day, an M3 was light years ahead of the 335. Engine, tranny (DCT vs regular garbage 6 speed auto), etc

Now the gap is so narrow in looks, power, transmission etc

Again we all get it, its not just engine HP numbers, the handling bla bla bla but still, alot of people who purchase an M3/M4 do so for the differentiation/exoticness vs a regular 3 series or 4 series. I think very few track the car.

Now that the GAP is this narrow, I think only truly hardcore enthusiasts/track drivers would go for an M4.

Just my $.2
Ok.

The ZF 8 speed is NOWHERE near as good as the DCT transmission. It's such a difference that it's not even funny... "Back in the day" the M just had a manual transmission just like any other BMW could have as well. The first SMG transmissions wasn't exactly spectacular and nothing like the difference between M DCT and ZF 8-speed.

You cannot just compare the power of a tuned 335i with the HP of the S55. That's like saying a 550i also can be tuned to 560hp and it will have the same power as the M5. On paper yes, but the two engines would be like day and night to experience when driving (power delivery, rpm range). And the 335i doesn't have a torque vectoring diff, doesn't have the M's suspension etc.

E36 M3, E39 M5 etc, how different did they look from the regular BMW's?

The difference between a F30 and a F80 will possibly be greater than at any time in the M3 history (we are led to believe).

Last edited by Boss330; 09-23-2013 at 03:43 PM..
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      09-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
first time i have seen such small gains for next generation car.

the torque gains are there, hp gains are not. BUT its a sign that the horse power war is coming to a end possibility.

overall it really depends on what the competition does that will make this car desirable or not. if everyone switchs to more eco 6s than maybe this will work for me.
Why is everyone so focused on the HP number?

It's all about power/weight ratio. I really hope BMW is finding it's way back to a light and nimble M3 that has a significant gain in power to weight, where the majority of that comes from lighter weight. Why? Because lighter weight will do wonders for handling and braking.

More power is only good for acceleration, with lower weight and just a bit more power you still gain acceleration, but make massive gains in handling and braking performance.
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      09-23-2013, 03:46 PM   #119
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Interesting that many are "ok" with 425HP when 5+ polls from E90 post show many wanted 460+ and hoped that 460 would be underrated.
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      09-23-2013, 03:48 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Why is everyone so focused on the HP number?

It's all about power/weight ratio. I really hope BMW is finding it's way back to a light and nimble M3 that has a significant gain in power to weight, where the majority of that comes from lighter weight. Why? Because lighter weight will do wonders for handling and braking.

More power is only good for acceleration, with lower weight and just a bit more power you still gain acceleration, but make massive gains in handling and braking performance.
Thats why i made a point to say maybe the HP wars are coming to a end and getting lighter cars is coming.

but a lot of people still like POWER.
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      09-23-2013, 03:48 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M00kie
Interesting that many are "ok" with 425HP when 5+ polls from E90 post show many wanted 460+ and hoped that 460 would be underrated.
No offense but what kind of dumb poll is that. You could have put 600+ hp and people would have voted that too. Who is going to vote 'no I want less power than more'

What people that are OK with the number here understands is that we haven't heard the weight yet and if the car has significant weight savings, these HP and torque figures will be great.
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      09-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #122
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I need to see the weight before I get excited but the torque is a definite plus.
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      09-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Why is everyone so focused on the HP number?

It's all about power/weight ratio. I really hope BMW is finding it's way back to a light and nimble M3 that has a significant gain in power to weight, where the majority of that comes from lighter weight. Why? Because lighter weight will do wonders for handling and braking.

More power is only good for acceleration, with lower weight and just a bit more power you still gain acceleration, but make massive gains in handling and braking performance.
I dont get the focus on pure power.

Im one of the biggest 911 and M fans out there. The 991S with only 400 is faster in a straight line than a 460 hp C7 vette (which is also FAST). It does it with 60 less hp. So at the end of the day, does it matter how much power it has. And on top of that, its the best driving car out there and more precise than everything else on the road as well.

Id ratherhave a car that performs rather than bragging rights to hp. Id rather have a car with less stated hp that can beat higher hp cars like the 911s seem to do. Paper stats only mean so much, but real world driving and real world performance are what matters.
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      09-23-2013, 03:52 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
Thats why i made a point to say maybe the HP wars are coming to a end and getting lighter cars is coming.

but a lot of people still like POWER.
Yes, but do we like POWER as a number on a piece of paper or POWER as in what we can actually feel when driving (which is where power to weight comes in).

From a lot of the posts here, it seems many are more interested in POWER as a number to brag about...
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      09-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosz View Post
Tranny:
ZF8 on 435/335 F30 etc is almost as fast and precise as a DCT. And now it even has launch control.
meh don't believe the hype. the ZF tiptronic/steptronic is a good gearbox....but it's nowhere near the level of performance as a proper dual clutch automatic gearbox. It's still clunky and non-satisfying to use. I have driven several cars equipped with the ZF and was bored with all of them. The dual clutch actually FEELS like there are two clutches working in symphony between them....actively seeking gears. The ZF just feels like a really good automatic.

i'd personally never buy a ZF slushbox....but would DEFINITELY buy a car with a dual clutch.

as for the rest of others' opinions about HP---judging a car by HP is like judging a woman by the cup size on her bra and NOTHING else-----it tells an important, but out-of-context summary of the subject in question. Just tuning a 435i does NOT make it an M3. The M3 is more than just technical stats; it is a composite of a factory built performance package engineered as such from the beginning. I get tired of people comparing 'tuned' cars to out-of-the-box packages. I *LOVE* my brand new 135is, but i'm not going to pretend that tuning it and adding a bunch of parts is going to make it a 1M; it will NOT (although this is a poor example....as BMW engineers DID just tune it and add a bunch of parts to make the 1M...LOL).

Last edited by IEDEI; 09-23-2013 at 04:04 PM..
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      09-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #126
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I'd prefer my FI to come from from a VT625 mounted on a V8 thanks.

Good numbers stock though! Are they going to implement the locking ECU like some of the other new cars (ie after like 1000 miles or something, you cannot load a tune)?
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      09-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
I dont get the focus on pure power.

Im one of the biggest 911 and M fans out there. The 991S with only 400 is faster in a straight line than a 460 hp C7 vette (which is also FAST). It does it with 60 less hp. So at the end of the day, does it matter how much power it has. And on top of that, its the best driving car out there and more precise than everything else on the road as well.

Id ratherhave a car that performs rather than bragging rights to hp. Id rather have a car with less stated hp that can beat higher hp cars like the 911s seem to do. Paper stats only mean so much, but real world driving and real world performance are what matters.
EXACTLY
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      09-23-2013, 03:54 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Yes, but do we like POWER as a number on a piece of paper or POWER as in what we can actually feel when driving (which is where power to weight comes in).

From a lot of the posts here, it seems many are more interested in POWER as a number to brag about...
horse power sells cars is the old marketing sayin
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      09-23-2013, 03:59 PM   #129
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Yes, agreed on that. It's a lot easier to point to a HP number.

But, what they should do is focus on how much quicker it is around the 'Ring etc than the competition.

If I were in their marketing department I would make a marketing strategy where the M3/M4 is marketed as the emotional and intelligent choice over the brute, unsophisticated "muscle car" competition...

The nimble and lean athlete compared to the Muscle Beach body builders
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      09-23-2013, 04:01 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosz View Post
M4 = Glorified 4 Series

Just kidding

But seriousluy the Gap is getting narrower between Bimmers these days

Power:
spend about 2k on a 435 you can get equivalent or more power of the engine

Looks:
M sport looks very similar to the M4 body kit (to the untrained eye), especially the M-performance body parts looks almost identical

Tranny:
ZF8 on 435/335 F30 etc is almost as fast and precise as a DCT. And now it even has launch control.

Price:
Still a HUGE Gap, while all other gaps are narrowing

Back in the day, an M3 was light years ahead of the 335. Engine, tranny (DCT vs regular garbage 6 speed auto), etc

Now the gap is so narrow in looks, power, transmission etc

Again we all get it, its not just engine HP numbers, the handling bla bla bla but still, alot of people who purchase an M3/M4 do so for the differentiation/exoticness vs a regular 3 series or 4 series. I think very few track the car.

Now that the GAP is this narrow, I think only truly hardcore enthusiasts/track drivers would go for an M4.

Just my $.2
Be careful...while you're trying to remember how your launch control works, the light may turn green. Then your whole reason for buying a slushbox 335i and throwing $10k of mods into it will have to wait til the next red.
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      09-23-2013, 04:08 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeXiPYm3 View Post
Looking at the bigger picture... BMW has been underrating their numbers on FI cars. So 440-450 could be the real numbers. And think about how many 335s are rolling around with 400hp just off of a tune. So that means that 500hp should not be hard to reach at all. And having a base of almost 400tq, the thing will be moving and will be a great car around town! All that plus some stock weight reduction, this is a win!!
I think they may be overselling the tune if anyone is claiming 400hp with 'just' a tune. Tunes alone can add 30-50hp at the wheels putting you somewhere in the 350hp area perhaps if we actually knew what the drive train loss is. I don't think anyone is gaining 100hp on a 335 with only a tune on normal gas, at least not one that won't run the risk of blowing your engine.

Common is about 300-310whp with a 'safe' tune. Now add in DP, E85, Meth, etc which allows you to safely turn up the boost and then you start to see the big numbers and make a M3 see tail lights, at least in a straight line.
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      09-23-2013, 04:09 PM   #132
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I just realized how ahead of time E39 M5 was with 394hp / 369ft.lb

13 years later...
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