Adaptive suspension vs coil overs

[Fun of it]

Great thread with good insights. I too am curious and skeptical of the adaptive suspension on the F80. My skepticism is the longevity before expensive repair or replacement. Recent experience with a 2007 328xi incurred multiple electrical gremlins. and it was frustrating to take the car back the dealer multiple times, only to be told, "we are not sure why you are having this issue". I dumped it and traded for a 2011 328. Although BMW pushes complex technologies, the track record for reliability is disappointing.

I too enjoy 2 track weekends a year, and my DD commute is all surface streets, with a few opportunities for spirited curves. I will keep watching the threads once car start hitting the streets, my target date is spring next year.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

no, that is not correct

these aftermarket suspensions are not active at all...

So you're saying that Racer's comment about the KW with DDC was wrong? Because that's what I was referring to with my reply. I wasn't talking about the typical non-active-but-nevertheless-adjustable aftermarket suspension.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

So you're saying that Racer's comment about the KW with DDC was wrong? Because that's what I was referring to with my reply. I wasn't talking about the typical non-active-but-nevertheless-adjustable aftermarket suspension.

yes, I am saying the modes are static and not active. it works as I described. three static modes.

http://www.kw-suspensions.eu/int/kw_ddc.php

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

yes, I am saying the modes are static and not active. it works as I described. three static modes.

http://www.kw-suspensions.eu/int/kw_ddc.php

Ok, I read the blurb, but it looks like I'll need to read up on it later because within the limits of my (admittedly minimal) knowledge and understanding, the idea that the dampening is static within each mode is not clicking just from that description.

[karussell]

the suspension should hold up fine for the duration of the warranty period. if it doesn't then take it in to have it checked. i haven't had any issues with oem suspension on the e90's i have owned.

i think also you can safely lower the car slightly with properly designed aftermarket springs or sleeve over kit. obviously if going that route and dampers blow then bmw won't replace your shocks. at which point you are free to get something more aggresive anyways

coilovers... hmm. on a track day what do they really do for you? i can see adjustable camber plates helping with tire wear on and off track. corner balancing also greatly improves stability but the oem suspension should already be balanced quite well. I think unless you are on a perfectly smooth course, the adaptive dampers will do just as well or better. ultimately the biggest benefit is you spend more time driving versus messing with settings.

i'm thinking all the major brand suspension companies are developing smart adaptive coilovers that will be controlled by your cel phone along with relaying data to a central database. get statistical proof of each setting that works best corner by corner. now that would be a coilover system i would try

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by karussell

i'm thinking all the major brand suspension companies are developing smart adaptive coilovers that will be controlled by your cel phone along with relaying data to a central database. get statistical proof of each setting that works best corner by corner. now that would be a coilover system i would try

Crowd sourced dampener settings - I like it.

Maybe eventually some day the car will download the optimized program as determined per all of the collected data and load it when you drive onto the track, setting up the suspension automagically.

[Grock]

I always thought that messing with M suspension was silly although I understand that some people drop their cars using springs for stance purposes. Those guys usually care not about proper track set up.

Either way I always get a chuckle out of that.

[RocketBoots]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

no, that is not correct

these aftermarket suspensions are not active at all. they are simply systems that may have two "modes" that can be controlled electronically, using the same controls as the OEM system. so basically, imagine a "normal" and "sport" mode.

the oem adaptive systems are active systems, which are constantly adapting to road conditions and making on the fly adjustments AND have multiple modes in which they do this. they are far more advanced than the OTS systems that claim to be "electronic".

and unfortunately not, substituting the springs only will make the system perform like garbage. it would probably be a good idea to read some articles on suspension setup and geometry.

the springs are bad for three reasons. one, the OEM setup calibrates the shock length and travel length to the spring height, allowing for a specific amount of suspension travel. two, the suspension geometry and alignment are specific to a certain ride height range. three, the shocks are calibrated for a specific spring rate, which will be different than the aftermarket springs.

adding aftermarket springs on OEM shocks, or any shocks that are not shortened and re-valved to account for the new spring heights and rates is an absolutely horrible idea and will perform much worse than stock

I agree that messing with stock suspensions is not a good idea. Like I stated before, I like to look at the system as a whole, and BMW definitely did that for this car.

Originally Posted by Fun of it

Great thread with good insights. I too am curious and skeptical of the adaptive suspension on the F80. My skepticism is the longevity before expensive repair or replacement. Recent experience with a 2007 328xi incurred multiple electrical gremlins. and it was frustrating to take the car back the dealer multiple times, only to be told, "we are not sure why you are having this issue". I dumped it and traded for a 2011 328. Although BMW pushes complex technologies, the track record for reliability is disappointing.

I too enjoy 2 track weekends a year, and my DD commute is all surface streets, with a few opportunities for spirited curves. I will keep watching the threads once car start hitting the streets, my target date is spring next year.

Yeah, I'm hoping that since this is not a first gen active suspension it will be pretty darn good and decently reliable. The Porsche active suspensions in the 997.2 and 991 are decently improved from the 997.1, or so I've heard on forums and from friends. I suppose I shouldn't hold Adaptive M Suspension to any higher standard than any other BMW suspension, meaning that I should expect to do maintenance 50-100k miles out.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Ok, I read the blurb, but it looks like I'll need to read up on it later because within the limits of my (admittedly minimal) knowledge and understanding, the idea that the dampening is static within each mode is not clicking just from that description.

I also think their description is a little vague, but my interpretation is that it is "electronically" adjustable, but not active, as in, they have a computer that adjusts the dampening every millisecond from all kinds of data gathered. Just how I read it. Could be wrong...

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

I'm going to order the standard suspension then wait for Bilstein to make this for the F82.

Likely won't happen. The reason they make it for Porsche and GTR is that they are the OEM supplier for the dampers on those cars, so it's easy for them to make new hardware to work with the vehicle's controller.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Brosef

completely agree. I learned this first hand from replacing my stock adaptive suspension on my e92 with KWV3. here are a few observations:

1. the ride quality was way worse. anybody who tells you that the ride quality is similar or better is either smoking crack or driving around on billiard tables. I had the suspension adjusted to its softest setting and it's highest height (which is still a drop compared to stock) because it was just too uncomfortable. only then was it bearable, but when I re-installed the stock setup, I fell in love with the car all over again. so much better from the factory. never again will I tinker with the suspension.
2. don't confuse a car that corners flat with one that handles well. you can always make a car corner flat through stiffening. and cornering completely flat in and of itself isn't necessarily a good thing for handling/speed.
3. lowering the car messes with the suspension geometry and can compromise how the wheels/tires move in relation to the road under cornering loads. this takes a truly expert suspension tuner a long time to perfect, and I think you'd have a hard time making any lowered aftermarket system handle as well as the stock setup. As KP stated, you have to spend big dollars to make it right, and even then you've compromised the daily driveability that makes this car so great.

EDIT: to be clear, coilovers were the only mod I made to my M3 that I thought would enhance performance, but instead made it worse and made the car less enjoyable to drive. the only mod I regretted.

This. More people need to understand this. Modding the suspension on a new M3 is unlikely to actually make it better. If it's a street car, there's literally no point other than appearance, although I personally think that the M3 ride height is fine as it comes.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by //M sa

I go to track often, what do you think about the best option of lowering the car is and keeping comfort? I am not a fan of lowering on springs, I like my coils on e90 but it's set to stiff and it's bone jarring over a bumps.

I have the Dinan Stage I springs on my E92 adaptive suspension, which has a modest drop. The decrease in ride comfort is minimal, but it is there. I would still consider this approach with the F82 due to the better stance it gives the car.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by MarkY

I think this is the product you are referring to, http://www.praxissuspension.com.

I don't think that was it but then again it's been a while.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I have the Dinan Stage I springs on my E92 adaptive suspension, which has a modest drop. The decrease in ride comfort is minimal, but it is there. I would still consider this approach with the F82 due to the better stance it gives the car.

Thanks, good to know and Dinan makes quality products even if it's over priced.

[Alpine F31]

After reading all the responses, esp Racer20 and KennyPowers, and thinking about how my H&R springs affected my otherwise stock 328i, I think I'll order 2VF and leave it alone.

I really love the look of a properly lowered car but I wont put looks over performance ever again.

[Nutinup]

OMG..MY KV3s ARE WORTHLESS! Thank GOD I personally didn't pay for them...but they will be up for sale when my vert M4 comes out! Roughest ride and noisiest freaking things Ive owned!

...okay...back to discussion...

[JoeFromPA]

BMW's adaptive suspension is quite good in the f30 series. It allows for the aperture of each strut to be independently and constantly changing to road conditions to maximize tire patch/comfort/control based upon pre-determined settings (i.e. comfort vs. sport). The programs are pre-determined, but the adaptability is - in effect - infinite.

Short of an air suspension, that can not be mimicked by a fixed strut valving and spring.

They are extremely reliable - as in, as reliable as a normal strut. So when you buy a car with normal struts, you expect what, 100k out of them? That's probably consistent here. However the strut replacement cost is higher because you are getting a superior strut technology and capability.

...

The only thing "better" is an air suspension with a true variable ride height and effective spring rate. This requires an onboard compressor among other weight-adding devices, and they aren't compact. I'm rocking a air suspension on my 07 v10 tdi touareg and at 124k miles it's fine and offers me to change my ride height by 8" (from loading height, which you can't drive on, to sport mode, comfort mode, off-road, and extreme off-road heights).

However, if you are going to see a true adjustable spring rate like an air suspension in a sports car I imagine you'll see it in professional racing first.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

After reading all the responses, esp Racer20 and KennyPowers, and thinking about how my H&R springs affected my otherwise stock 328i, I think I'll order 2VF and leave it alone.

I really love the look of a properly lowered car but I wont put looks over performance ever again.

Should've upgraded your shocks/struts to Bilstein B8's. If you lower a car properly, you won't suffer a loss of performance.

[mact3333]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I have the Dinan Stage I springs on my E92 adaptive suspension, which has a modest drop. The decrease in ride comfort is minimal, but it is there. I would still consider this approach with the F82 due to the better stance it gives the car.

Greg,

Im still trying to figure out how you got "you know who" to do a good install for you but they really botched up my Ground Control sleeve kit and I had to pay another shop to do it correctly......

[RocketBoots]

Thanks for all the input guys. I think I'm pretty much set on getting the M-Adaptive suspension. Really not a bad upgrade for $1k, although some could complain that we get nickel-n-dime'd for something that's standard in the UK, or even on the 235.

In the end, I think it would be worth the extra expense of replacing them, when the time comes, over standard passive suspension components.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by Nutinup

OMG..MY KV3s ARE WORTHLESS! Thank GOD I personally didn't pay for them...but they will be up for sale when my vert M4 comes out! Roughest ride and noisiest freaking things Ive owned!

...okay...back to discussion...

I have heard that from many people, some are just squeaky and some are not.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Should've upgraded your shocks/struts to Bilstein B8's. If you lower a car properly, you won't suffer a loss of performance.

I should have for sure. The H&R springs and stock dampers clearly don't get along.

But I'm done modifying this car. I'm going to put it all back to stock and sell it or lease swap it so I can get the M4.

[Gcat333]

Originally Posted by RocketBoots

I was doing some digging, and from what I could gather, additional cost, weight (on the order of ~100 lbs!!), and lack of technology were limiting factors early on for "air ride" type active suspensions from, say, Caddy, Benz, Lexus. Those were for very different types of cars, but still... That was a tiny bit of my concern for active suspensions: complexity, (weight), and reliability.

It seems like the aftermarket suspensions either don't have active setups, and require a disabler to trick the OBC so it won't throw error msgs, or do not integrate into the electronics of the car. The second part sort of makes sense. I would think the algorithms for the active suspensions were developed with specific equipment, and a specific car, in the case of M3/M4, in mind, and were designed to have the whole system work synergistically. So to upgrade, you might need to change the whole system, including the computer, if it's a discrete unit.

Two side notes:
anyone venture a guess on the additional weight, if any, of the active setup?

And has anyone changed just the springs in an active suspension and the whole system still worked well, or even better?

If you profoundly meddle with the car's suspension, you are just ruining the car. They have a whole army of scientists who analyze the components, chassis and diagnostics. They know more than you.

If you must lower your M3/M4, just understand that you're not going to match the refinement of what those guys did in the "stock" version. It cannot and will not happen.

Just get a 3 series and blow it out.

Revamping the suspension is just throwing money away. You're paying a hefty premium for the engineering on an M car.