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      03-26-2014, 10:04 AM   #1
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New Z/28 beats the GTR on Track...



I'm more surprised than the reviewer is...

and skeptical.

Hands together for Chevy
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      03-26-2014, 11:10 AM   #2
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Z28 is running brand new Pirelli semi slicks while the gtr is running crappy summer tires .

That's typically worth at least a couple seconds on track .
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      03-26-2014, 11:20 AM   #3
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No, it doesn't because if you can't get one to beat any car since they are all sold out. It's a marketing car to sell v6 camaro models. They made a very limited number of them and it's only over two years probably as a 14 model for both.
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      03-26-2014, 11:29 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
Z28 is running brand new Pirelli semi slicks while the gtr is running crappy summer tires .

That's typically worth at least a couple seconds on track .
This was GT-R Track Edition, those summer tires aren't crappy in the least bit. Not semi slicks like the Trofeo R or MPSC but very sticky regardless.
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      03-26-2014, 12:22 PM   #5
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The Z/28 is a 3800+ lbs car. I would rather have 3700+ lbs M4 with 500+ hp that runs a tad slower compared to the Z/28 than a 3400+ lbs M4 that is way off Z/28’s pace.

I think this generation of M3/M4 has been hindered too much by government emission regulation and future mpg requirements. These new standards hurts prestige brand like BMW more than the common brand like GM. GM has existing “cheap” cars that is capable of 40+ mpg and they can expand their “cheap” car options in the future. This allows GM and other common people brand to develop these performance cars because they can still meet government regulations by offsetting it with “cheap” cars. On the other hand, BMW cannot make “cheap” car because it would tarnish the brand. I think that is why BMW is making electric cars in preparation for future regulations. But they can’t increase their electric car market too much at this point because it’s a risky business move. Therefore, BMW will increase mpg for all cars and put large hindrances due to government regulations when developing performance cars. This is just my personal theories and options.
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      03-26-2014, 12:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by See5 View Post
This was GT-R Track Edition, those summer tires aren't crappy in the least bit. Not semi slicks like the Trofeo R or MPSC but very sticky regardless.
we will agree to disagree on this one. RFT summer tires do not compare whatsoever to the new Pirelli semi slicks with 60 treadwear that are basically undriveable on the street or in the rain.

that is a huge tire advantage.
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      03-26-2014, 02:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley913 View Post
The Z/28 is a 3800+ lbs car. I would rather have 3700+ lbs M4 with 500+ hp that runs a tad slower compared to the Z/28 than a 3400+ lbs M4 that is way off Z/28’s pace.

I think this generation of M3/M4 has been hindered too much by government emission regulation and future mpg requirements. These new standards hurts prestige brand like BMW more than the common brand like GM. GM has existing “cheap” cars that is capable of 40+ mpg and they can expand their “cheap” car options in the future. This allows GM and other common people brand to develop these performance cars because they can still meet government regulations by offsetting it with “cheap” cars. On the other hand, BMW cannot make “cheap” car because it would tarnish the brand. I think that is why BMW is making electric cars in preparation for future regulations. But they can’t increase their electric car market too much at this point because it’s a risky business move. Therefore, BMW will increase mpg for all cars and put large hindrances due to government regulations when developing performance cars. This is just my personal theories and options.
I see what you're saying but the M4 will be a 3300+lbs car with 430 CLAIMED horsepower figures (we know how BMW has been conservative with their ratings). The M4 will surely be faster than the Z28 in a straight line, and the track portion is to be seen.

Not sure how you're saying the M4 is slower than the Z28 already, unless you know something we don't. Its quite possible the M4 may prove to be slower, however we just can't say that yet.
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      03-26-2014, 03:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCsquared View Post
I see what you're saying but the M4 will be a 3300+lbs car with 430 CLAIMED horsepower figures (we know how BMW has been conservative with their ratings). The M4 will surely be faster than the Z28 in a straight line, and the track portion is to be seen.

Not sure how you're saying the M4 is slower than the Z28 already, unless you know something we don't. Its quite possible the M4 may prove to be slower, however we just can't say that yet.
I do admit some dyno run shows higher hp than manufactures claimed. However, I think the manufacture’s horsepower number is more reliable than dyno number. The manufactures test the engine in a controlled room (temp, humility, etc.) and only with the engine connected to the testing machine. This method is far more reliable than any dyno. Second, I just don’t see any reason a manufacture would underrate their engine. It’s more of the opposite case. I can see manufactures overrating their engine because hp sells cars.

None of us know how the M4 will perform but one can make logical guesses. Here is my logic: assumes the M4 will be slower than the E92 M3 GTS. The GTS is way off the z/28 pace. Therefore, M4 is way off the z/28 pace.
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      03-26-2014, 03:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley913 View Post
I do admit some dyno run shows higher hp than manufactures claimed. However, I think the manufacture’s horsepower number is more reliable than dyno number. The manufactures test the engine in a controlled room (temp, humility, etc.) and only with the engine connected to the testing machine. This method is far more reliable than any dyno. Second, I just don’t see any reason a manufacture would underrate their engine. It’s more of the opposite case. I can see manufactures overrating their engine because hp sells cars.

None of us know how the M4 will perform but one can make logical guesses. Here is my logic: assumes the M4 will be slower than the E92 M3 GTS. The GTS is way off the z/28 pace. Therefore, M4 is way off the z/28 pace.
Let's agree to disagree

I understand your logic regarding the notion of overrating figures and the subsequent affect that may have on sales, however that simply hasn't been the case, regardless of the logic behind it. This underrating of power has almost become an industry wide trend and is undoubtedly present in BMW's cars, among many others (may I suggest the E63 AMG?). I won't bother to get into the specifics but I'll mention the S63 as well as the N54 as prime examples of motors that have been widely accepted as being vastly underrated. I think there have been more than enough tests demonstrating the degree of underrating that is present amongst BMW's turbo motors.

Additionally, BMW has been very conservative in terms of acceleration times as well.

In terms of being slower than the E92 M3 GTS. Hmm, will be interesting to see. I'm really excited to see what types of numbers the F8X can set, but you're right, if it is slower than the GTS than it would reasonable to conclude it will be slower than the Z28. Only time can tell, I'm just not so sure this is as sure as you're making it seem.
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      03-26-2014, 11:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCsquared


I'm more surprised than the reviewer is...

and skeptical.

Hands together for Chevy
If that's the case imagine what the new Z06 will be like! American cars have come a very long way in the last 10 years.
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      03-27-2014, 01:15 AM   #11
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In the print version, they threw a 911 Turbo S at it too and the Camero still medaled at the track and in the hearts of the reviewers. That's pretty shocking considering that the Z28 had its ass handed to it by these two elite autos in a drag - the only area where American muscle cars aren't otherwise supposed to be a POS. Most folks would handicap the M3/4 as watching the distant tail lights of the GTR and 911 TS around a track and therefore the dragstrip might be the only track on which an M3/4 might have a chance against the Z28.

All the self-professed track junkies on this forum who claim to eschew all manner of bling and are all about spartan no frills performance should be embracing this car with loving arms. So well done Z28!!! You represent a sea change in American cars, even though you'll always look like a rental to me.

On another note, Major props were given to the CCB's in the Z. Are these the same ones BMW bought off Brembo?
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      03-27-2014, 08:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
In the print version, they threw a 911 Turbo S at it too and the Camero still medaled at the track and in the hearts of the reviewers. That's pretty shocking considering that the Z28 had its ass handed to it by these two elite autos in a drag - the only area where American muscle cars aren't otherwise supposed to be a POS. Most folks would handicap the M3/4 as watching the distant tail lights of the GTR and 911 TS around a track and therefore the dragstrip might be the only track on which an M3/4 might have a chance against the Z28.

All the self-professed track junkies on this forum who claim to eschew all manner of bling and are all about spartan no frills performance should be embracing this car with loving arms. So well done Z28!!! You represent a sea change in American cars, even though you'll always look like a rental to me.

On another note, Major props were given to the CCB's in the Z. Are these the same ones BMW bought off Brembo?
the car just makes no sense, and yet again, basically race tires vs crappy RFT street tires. put them all on the same tires and the z28 will not win.

see the attachment for the difference between a semi slick and a street tire (check both zr1 times, 7 second difference on the ring). these new Pirelli tires are more aggressive than PScups.



I don't understand chevy building this car on such a compromised and terrible platform like the heavy and ponderous Camaro. Why start with a 4000+ lb car? Why not provide this tech to the vette which is already a great platform?

Ill use the same analogy I used on another forum......chevy choosing the Camaro over the vette is akin to having the opportunity to train any person you wanted to become an elite NBA player and you chose David Stern (Camaro) over Lebron James (vette). Makes zero sense to me.

If anything, its more disappointing because you have to wonder what the vette would be like with all these additions.
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      03-27-2014, 08:36 AM   #13
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It's really a much higher level issue

What it is that's happening.
The GTR rose to fame by essentially offering levels of performance previously reserved for much higher price levels and by few manufacturers. The same is happening to it. The era of the automobile being defined by relatively significant differences in performance, reliability and utility is rapidly drawing to a close. Consumers can no longer use (relatively speaking) additional advances in these areas. These attributes are commodities available to every manufacturer. It happens in every product category unless the environment offers an opportunity to change the whole field.

Use the product category of wristwatches as an analogy. Quite a while ago there became no intrinsic reason left to purchase a mechanical watch....a better timing device is essentially free to everyone. That industry now uses much different attributes to garner market position.

In the not too distant future some of us will pay a very hefty premium to drive a car with an internal combustion engine and manual transmission that offers less outright performance than their mainstream counterparts. Because we can and want to. But many will not.

Personally, I think I've experienced a pretty good era. I've gotten to experience the emergence of the everyday super car and the last true sports cars ('70 era)

The manufacturers all know this. Cool thing is the number of car "manufacturers" will actually rise (albeit the volume supplied by these newcomers will be low). How deftly they all navigate this phase of their industry life cycle....

I'll enjoy my new M3 immensely even though it'll likely get smoked by the new cheaper whatever before the lease is up....or at this rate before I start my lease
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      03-27-2014, 11:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
the car just makes no sense, and yet again, basically race tires vs crappy RFT street tires. put them all on the same tires and the z28 will not win.

see the attachment for the difference between a semi slick and a street tire (check both zr1 times, 7 second difference on the ring). these new Pirelli tires are more aggressive than PScups.



I don't understand chevy building this car on such a compromised and terrible platform like the heavy and ponderous Camaro. Why start with a 4000+ lb car? Why not provide this tech to the vette which is already a great platform?

Ill use the same analogy I used on another forum......chevy choosing the Camaro over the vette is akin to having the opportunity to train any person you wanted to become an elite NBA player and you chose David Stern (Camaro) over Lebron James (vette). Makes zero sense to me.

If anything, its more disappointing because you have to wonder what the vette would be like with all these additions.
Here is one run at the Ring where it posted 7:37.47, last minute in rain. Not too shabby

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      03-27-2014, 12:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRV View Post
Here is one run at the Ring where it posted 7:37.47, last minute in rain. Not too shabby

It's definitely fast. But it's not accurate to say it's faster than the gtr and 991 turbo on track because one has semi slick tires (which anyone who tracks often would use) and the otjers are on basic summers. There is easily a couple to a few seconds there based on tires alone .

Again, not saying it's not fast , but am saying that tires being equal it's not faster than the other 2 cars in the test.
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      03-27-2014, 04:11 PM   #16
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Track, driver, weather,and tires all being the same there is absolutely no way the Z/28 is faster than a GT-R or 911 Turbo S around a racetrack.

This must be the same weaksauce beat-to-shit GT-R that has been making the rounds the past year, putting in worse track times than the cars have done in the past 5 years.

What's next? Are they going to put it up against a Veloster?

Besides, these Z/28s will never see tracks. They'll go straight to collectors and sit in garages all their lives. The car is too expensive (for what it is) and too rare for any sane person to track it. If you want a Chevy and you want to track a car you're going to get a Z06, upgrade the suspension, throw on some slicks and run circles around this Z/28 all day long.
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      03-28-2014, 12:01 AM   #17
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That camaro is impressive i also like the looks except the halogen headlights and that awful rear. I like the older rear better.
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      03-28-2014, 09:49 AM   #18
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Performance ok but the looks of the Z28 awful, look at the fenders they attached a plastic body kit, see the spoilers the gap between the spoiler and body is more then 0,5 inch and not consistent. Also the Steering wheel and inside of the cabin must be kidding me.

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      03-28-2014, 10:29 AM   #19
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I agree that the Tires made the difference here and GTR would have been at least 2-3 seconds faster if not more on even quality tires. GTR over z28 all day
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      03-28-2014, 11:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suave
I agree that the Tires made the difference here and GTR would have been at least 2-3 seconds faster if not more on even quality tires. GTR over z28 all day
This is just how to car comes out of the factory guys no need to fuss! I thought we dont buy cars based on track times but rather straight line performance?!
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      03-28-2014, 11:32 AM   #21
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The Z28 comes with a 305 square setup with R-comp semi slicks . (The GTR has 255/285 extreme summers). From the factory or not it's a dedicated track car with both tires / suspension / camber set up to be unusable/ unsafe on the street . ( kudos to Chevy offering a turn key track car though , while the GTR "track edition " is a pure marketing package with no performance enhancements ) . To put the tires and camber into perspective , if an E92 M3 with a square 285 semi slick and track camber setup was in this test , it would have won .... By a lot. The Camaro chassis still sucks ass , pure marketing BS and a lot of people are failing for it bc they don't understand , tire size and compound are the two most important mods for track times . The Z28 despite having the old Z06 motor only traps 117 bc it's still a fat pig even stripped out . On equal tires the new M4 will rape it , 500 pound weight advantage is huge . Oh and the new M4 will be faster in a straight line bone stock with the DCT .
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      03-28-2014, 11:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
The Z28 comes with a 305 square setup with R-comp semi slicks . (The GTR has 255/285 extreme summers). From the factory or not it's a dedicated track car with both tires / suspension / camber set up to be unusable/ unsafe on the street . ( kudos to Chevy offering a turn key track car though , while the GTR "track edition " is a pure marketing package with no performance enhancements ) . To put the tires and camber into perspective , if an E92 M3 with a square 285 semi slick and track camber setup was in this test , it would have won .... By a lot. The Camaro chassis still sucks ass , pure marketing BS and a lot of people are failing for it bc they don't understand , tire size and compound are the two most important mods for track times . The Z28 despite having the old Z06 motor only traps 117 bc it's still a fat pig even stripped out . On equal tires the new M4 will rape it , 500 pound weight advantage is huge . Oh and the new M4 will be faster in a straight line bone stock with the DCT .

this is way way way off. the Camaro ran a 7:37 on the ring. The m3 ran like an 8:05. There is no freaking chance you will pick up over 30 seconds from tires alone.

The Camaro is not quicker than these two cars on equal tires but its way quicker than an e92 m3. The m3 would get destroyed by any of these cars regardless of what tires its on.

I also think the new m3 will have one hell of a time beating this car on track, even with R-comps.

I still think its a silly platform to mod to this extent, but it is a fast car. It also has incredible shock technology that I wish BMW had. The magnetic dampers that GM has are the real deal
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