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      01-20-2021, 09:05 PM   #2223
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Or, the only smart roll-out of such an important model that's possible given it's such a failure-risk of an iteration.

The roll-out has been:

(1.) Announce it
(2.) Hide it
(3.) Reveal it, don't let anybody drive it
(4.) Selective autopress test it
(5.) Deliver it, as many as possible

It's sure not the roll-out of company confident in its product.
This doesn't seem too out of character with their actions related to other model roll-outs, except for how long they disguised the front of the car. It tested for months on the Nurburgring and normal roads before they finally removed the cloth mask. Given that the new front is divisive (to say the least), I'm sure this paradigm shift in styling needed to be kept under wraps to minimize negative press until they were able to put the cars in the hands of social media influencers. BMW knows that influencers are unlikely to say anything legitimately hurtful to the brand, while still poking fun at the styling a bit. (Caveat: I've been intentionally avoiding YouTube content related to the new car, because no amount of peer pressure is going to make me less angry about it.)

The cars are already listed as in stock on the website for US military personnel stationed in Europe, though they may just be on order. I can get an M2 CS for the same money as an ugly new M3 Comp.
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      01-20-2021, 09:46 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
(6.) Release an LCI that "fixes" the criticisms? But changes net to nothing
(7.) Release LCI2 after people buy up LCI1 that actually makes a few cosmetic changes
(8.) Release a new slightly bigger M2 with an attractive front end, 485+hp, under 3700lbs, RWD, & 6MT as a spiritual successor–hopefully.
Had to slip a step in there hehe
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      01-21-2021, 12:34 AM   #2225
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
(6.) Release an LCI that "fixes" the criticisms?
(7.) Release a new slightly bigger M2 with an attractive front end, 485+hp, under 3700lbs, RWD, & 6MT as a spiritual successor–hopefully.
Honestly if the new M2 had 6MT, adaptive suspension, HUD, RWD, have some decent exterior/interior colors, didn't look fugly and it had 450+ HP/torque, that *could* be amazing as an F82 successor!
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      01-21-2021, 02:14 AM   #2226
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I was looking something up and I came across this post. Stark contrast to the G8X

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...19&postcount=5
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      01-21-2021, 02:28 AM   #2227
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Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
It is not about laziness if you are using it as a DD - the CA option is really nice (I do use it all the time to open my trunk leaving work with my hands full). And get this, I use CA at least twice per day! But I don't change my seat position very often. So kill the power seats (including the one on the passenger side if it has it) - that will lower the seat height and save a LOT more weight. Oh but one last thing - I bet most people don't realize they don't have CA until they get home with the new car - but power seats? Yea, they would notice that - so maybe this is all a ploy by BMW marketing


It still makes me laugh that you could get that car with the Exec package, the Power Rear Sunshade, the Adaptive LED Lights, the Heads Up Display... but nooo, noo comfort access. BMW is funny sometimes...
Well, in BMW's defense, they could very much be taking a page out of Porsche. Porsche's GT cars have no CA and no memory seat (even the 18-way) then most of them have manual door pulls for weight reasons. Though, the way BMW has done it is kind of half assed, putting this in but not completely remove everything to save weight.
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      01-21-2021, 10:12 AM   #2228
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Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
Well, in BMW's defense, they could very much be taking a page out of Porsche. Porsche's GT cars have no CA and no memory seat (even the 18-way) then most of them have manual door pulls for weight reasons. Though, the way BMW has done it is kind of half assed, putting this in but not completely remove everything to save weight.
I'm okay with non-memory seats. There is a quite big weight difference between 4-way and 18-way sofas, whilst being mostly the same seats without extra motors and some extra adjustment on the 18-ways.

I've mentioned this in another thread, though; the fact that you have to pay extra $330 for power folding mirrors on a Taycan or $500 for front seat heaters on a $85k Cayenne S is frankly ridiculous. I know Germans are notorious for this, but it's gotten better in the last 10 years, yet Porsche is still really milking its customers (who are all eating it because what else to do) as they love profit margins more than common sense.

On the other hand, the polar opposite of having no optional equipment or just one or two equipment packages is also bad, though.
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      01-21-2021, 10:28 AM   #2229
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I've mentioned this in another thread, though; the fact that you have to pay extra $330 for power folding mirrors on a Taycan, or $500 for front seat heaters on a $85k Cayenne S. I know Germans are notorious for this, but it's gotten better in the last 10 years, yet Porsche is still really milking its customers (who are all eating it because what else to do) as they love profit margins more than common sense.
That's because Porsche isn't a mainstream luxury brand like Audi, Mercedes, and BMW. They compete with the big boys and focuses on profit per unit instead of volume. I usually assume ~20% of base MSRP will be needed for options on any Porsche car.
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      01-21-2021, 10:30 AM   #2230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I'm okay with non-memory seats. There is a quite big weight difference between 4-way and 18-way sofas, whilst being mostly the same seats without extra motors and some extra adjustment on the 18-ways.

I've mentioned this in another thread, though; the fact that you have to pay extra $330 for power folding mirrors on a Taycan or $500 for front seat heaters on a $85k Cayenne S is frankly ridiculous. I know Germans are notorious for this, but it's gotten better in the last 10 years, yet Porsche is still really milking its customers (who are all eating it because what else to do) as they love profit margins more than common sense.

On the other hand, the polar opposite of having no optional equipment or just one or two equipment packages is also bad, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
That's because Porsche isn't a mainstream luxury brand like Audi, Mercedes, and BMW. They compete with the big boys and focuses on profit per unit instead of volume. I usually assume ~20% of base MSRP will be needed for options on any Porsche car.
I have the opposite view. I like the fact you can individually pick options like Porsche does it in North America. You get to spec your car exactly to your liking. In fact, from what I gather, BMW, Audi and MB also allow much more individual options in their home markets. It is the North American distributors that make many items standard or bunch them in "packages".
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      01-21-2021, 11:12 AM   #2231
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I have the opposite view. I like the fact you can individually pick options like Porsche does it in North America. You get to spec your car exactly to your liking. In fact, from what I gather, BMW, Audi and MB also allow much more individual options in their home markets. It is the North American distributors that make many items standard or bunch them in "packages".
In NA people like packages because it just saves the hassle of going over all of the small individual options. Granted, some package options can be annoying that require paying quite a bit for just a single thing that you want out of the entire package.
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      01-21-2021, 02:44 PM   #2232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I'm okay with non-memory seats. There is a quite big weight difference between 4-way and 18-way sofas, whilst being mostly the same seats without extra motors and some extra adjustment on the 18-ways.

I've mentioned this in another thread, though; the fact that you have to pay extra $330 for power folding mirrors on a Taycan or $500 for front seat heaters on a $85k Cayenne S is frankly ridiculous. I know Germans are notorious for this, but it's gotten better in the last 10 years, yet Porsche is still really milking its customers (who are all eating it because what else to do) as they love profit margins more than common sense.

On the other hand, the polar opposite of having no optional equipment or just one or two equipment packages is also bad, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
That's because Porsche isn't a mainstream luxury brand like Audi, Mercedes, and BMW. They compete with the big boys and focuses on profit per unit instead of volume. I usually assume ~20% of base MSRP will be needed for options on any Porsche car.
I have the opposite view. I like the fact you can individually pick options like Porsche does it in North America. You get to spec your car exactly to your liking. In fact, from what I gather, BMW, Audi and MB also allow much more individual options in their home markets. It is the North American distributors that make many items standard or bunch them in "packages".
I like to select my options too, but Porsche is taking it too far with some stuff that really should've been standard in 2021.

Looking at BMW USA website, they make you pay extra 4k if you just want one of the options from the package because there's no other way, like adaptive LEDs or better audio.

Porsche's strategy is the same in America as in Germany, but Audi, BMW and MB offer options in packages mostly, which is different than in Germany and most of Europe.
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      01-21-2021, 03:09 PM   #2233
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I like to select my options too, but Porsche is taking it too far with some stuff that really should've been standard in 2021.

Looking at BMW USA website, they make you pay extra 4k if you just want one of the options from the package because there's no other way, like adaptive LEDs or better audio.

Porsche's strategy is the same in America as in Germany, but Audi, BMW and MB offer options in packages mostly, which is different than in Germany and most of Europe.
For me, 95% of the options list is what I would order so packages make sense. However for those who just want one or two options, I think BMW should also offer a la carte! Why not offer all options so everyone is happy?
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      01-21-2021, 03:12 PM   #2234
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Audi does options the worst in my opinion. I'm not sure if they still do it, but to get ACC in any car usually you are required to option the most expensive trim/package which leads to a huge jump in price, and then most dealers option the trim just below that without ACC.
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      01-21-2021, 05:29 PM   #2235
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A buddy of mine who had a Fire Orange F80 finally saw the G8X pics. His reaction is consistent with the majority of car people
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      01-21-2021, 05:50 PM   #2236
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Looking at these images, I can see where the Hoffmeister kink went. It's now on the inboard edge of the headlights. Whereas the F8X headlights met the kidney to form a cohesive unit across the front, the G8X has a painted area between the headlight and stupid grille. It gives me the impression that the headlights are too small.

The first image, besides being a complete dumpster fire, is a great example of how well a flat black color helps hide the chaotic lines. Anything else is just drawing attention to the mess. The lines are just going in too many directions.
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      01-21-2021, 07:39 PM   #2237
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Audi does options the worst in my opinion. I'm not sure if they still do it, but to get ACC in any car usually you are required to option the most expensive trim/package which leads to a huge jump in price, and then most dealers option the trim just below that without ACC.
Which is completely asinine. Subaru includes ACC standard in all trim levels. A $30k Subie has more tech than a $60k Audi/BMW/Mercedes. You won't believe how hard it was to find an i3 with the tech package for ACC. 80% of the inventory didn't have it. It should be standard in all trim levels in this day and age... like regular cruise control.
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      01-21-2021, 11:39 PM   #2238
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A buddy of mine who had a Fire Orange F80 finally saw the G8X pics. His reaction is consistent with the majority of car people
I do agree. Never liked the regular colors on the F8x (I mean seriously no red or real blue?). The addition of the individual colors at $1,900 (or was it $1,800?) were a start but seriously the G8x has a much better color palette (to me).
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      01-22-2021, 01:29 AM   #2239
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Originally Posted by drroc View Post
In NA people like packages because it just saves the hassle of going over all of the small individual options. Granted, some package options can be annoying that require paying quite a bit for just a single thing that you want out of the entire package.
That's the key point:

* Volume sellers need packages because the buyers aren't interested enough in the cars - they just want the car with the stuff. Since profits depend on volumes which depend on throughput, all friction needs to be eliminated.

* Quality / Brand Strength sellers need choices because they get relatively larger margins off of each highly engaged customer. Customers not only WANT to pick options, but somewhat demand to. If the seller doesn't offer it, they'll immediately go aftermarket.

So if you're a manufacturer who sells a high-margin product AND can figure out how configure each core unit to a customer's preferences, then you can get ever escalating margins.
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      01-22-2021, 01:38 AM   #2240
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Which is completely asinine. Subaru includes ACC standard in all trim levels. A $30k Subie has more tech than a $60k Audi/BMW/Mercedes. You won't believe how hard it was to find an i3 with the tech package for ACC. 80% of the inventory didn't have it. It should be standard in all trim levels in this day and age... like regular cruise control.
Maybe a hot take but I'd prefer it otherwise for "premium" mass market vehicles like BMW, Benz, Audi, etc.

Yes, mid mass market subies should have these standard features because, as in my other post, volume sales. Everything is mediocre and you know it so who cares?

Premium mass market should make these bing-bongs optional both for choice and also to get a higher quality chassis: options increase margins which hopefully increases quality (customers walk otherwise). Configuration becomes how many creature-comforts the customer wants to pay to get back into a premium chassis. i.e., "you can drive your subie with cruise or your macan and move your foot". I'm all for putting the margin into the options.

Up in the ultra market (which isn't mass market of course) like Bentley, Aston, Rolls, etc then all bing-bongs should be standard again and configuration becomes mostly about the interior.
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      01-22-2021, 05:02 AM   #2241
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I like to select my options too, but Porsche is taking it too far with some stuff that really should've been standard in 2021.

Looking at BMW USA website, they make you pay extra 4k if you just want one of the options from the package because there's no other way, like adaptive LEDs or better audio.

Porsche's strategy is the same in America as in Germany, but Audi, BMW and MB offer options in packages mostly, which is different than in Germany and most of Europe.
I agree with this although it is a bit of a love and hate kind of thing.

I love the fact that I can have the car exactly the way I want it. However, I despise the fact that Porsche charges you hardcore for it. A lot of stuff that should be options but not really, are at times, thing you don't really end up needing. It sounds odd but trust me, when you get into a car, half of the time unless you are using it all the time, you would forget about it. Not to mention, I believe Porsche has once again up the price on PTS cars. Those of you who don't know that lingo, it means paint to sample, Porsche's version of BMW Individual Program. Although, for whatever reason, unlike BMW, Porsche requires an actual allocation for it. Meaning, unlike BMW (which you can turn most open allocation orders into an individual order if accepted), Porsche requires an actual PTS allocation for it, then they have to accept it. Much more of a headache.

Porsche also does offer packages just not on certain cars. Most of the time, the packages can be are rather outrageous in price as well. For example, some packages that are offered on the Cayenne GTS/Turbo can cost you north of 30k in North America.

So, in conclusion, I do kind of agree with the selectness of Porsche and the way you can have the car built. It's just the fact that everyone knows they charge you up the wazoo for it, is a bit of a problem for some.

If I remember correctly, someone did post that Porsche's profit margin is one of the higher ones due to... well the options Though Andreas Preuninger mentioned some of their GT cars have the lowest profit margins but they don't seem to mind.
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      01-22-2021, 05:39 AM   #2242
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Which is completely asinine. Subaru includes ACC standard in all trim levels. A $30k Subie has more tech than a $60k Audi/BMW/Mercedes. You won't believe how hard it was to find an i3 with the tech package for ACC. 80% of the inventory didn't have it. It should be standard in all trim levels in this day and age... like regular cruise control.
Maybe a hot take but I'd prefer it otherwise for "premium" mass market vehicles like BMW, Benz, Audi, etc.

Yes, mid mass market subies should have these standard features because, as in my other post, volume sales. Everything is mediocre and you know it so who cares?

Premium mass market should make these bing-bongs optional both for choice and also to get a higher quality chassis: options increase margins which hopefully increases quality (customers walk otherwise). Configuration becomes how many creature-comforts the customer wants to pay to get back into a premium chassis. i.e., "you can drive your subie with cruise or your macan and move your foot". I'm all for putting the margin into the options.

Up in the ultra market (which isn't mass market of course) like Bentley, Aston, Rolls, etc then all bing-bongs should be standard again and configuration becomes mostly about the interior.
In the interim I think that's fine, especially for what we would consider "drivers" vehicles like Porsches, exotics, "sports" cars etc and even M cars. In fact I would say it should perhaps never be standard in those like you said-I for one would not want nor desire it in my M cars. However for "street" cars I think it should be as standard as ABS or Bluetooth connectivity is now. Sure, it's not a universally accepted safety feature that saves countless lives, but honestly I can't drive a daily without it with traffic nowadays. Like another poster stated, certain manufacturers will just place a premium on it where it is sometimes difficult to find inventory with ACC optioned without paying for other unnecessary options.

Perhaps the problem simply lies with the distribution and sales models we live with. Custom spec'ed cars tend to not be discounted as much or take time to build per order and dealers have inventory to move in the meantime, competing for space in the market. The only way it will be standard is if more people demand it. In the case of Subaru, I think they are doing it right by having it standard in their vehicles, although I don't know if the WRX or BRZ come standard honestly. If not, then that lines up with your points.
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      01-22-2021, 09:28 AM   #2243
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Another fail for the 4-series... not surprised at all.
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      01-22-2021, 09:47 AM   #2244
F32Fleet
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Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Another fail for the 4-series... not surprised at all.
Seems silly to suggest that the 4-series was a compact sports coupe. There's nothing compact about it.

I really wish they had went with a grill which was narrower and more rounded but even that may have looked silly because of the required center placement of the front plates.
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