S55 vs. S65

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by svc0x80

After owning several forced induction cars, N/A engines are the ones that seem boring, torque is only produced at high RPM and this makes for a terrible daily driver. Turbo cars not only make great daily drivers, but the real fun starts at 100mph+ (I'm not sure if that safe on shitty roads of Columbus). Unlike the S65, the S55 is build to handle large amounts of pressure, and that pressure results in ridiculous amounts of torque. You know higher flame front propagation rates at higher pressures. Whats the S65 pushing? a measly 300ft/lb? The N54 puts out 295 and the N55 322. Exactly how is this magnificent again? Ah yes the sound.

Compare 18+ psi on a 3.0L, the 4.0L displacement of the naturally aspirated V8 is a joke. I mean seriously if you're going to talk about magnificent V8s BMW is not the company you should reference.

The S55 is superior to both N54 and N55, closed deck (like the RB26 and 2JZ), has twin-wire arc spayed iron/carbon coating instead of liners, bore and stroke are different as are pistons and more importantly rods and crankshaft.

Its hardly just an engine with a different turbo configuration and different tune.

You can have a N/A engine that has low end torque. look at the C63 AMG or corvettes. They get the great sounding, low end power and more responsive engines. It just takes a big N/A engine to make good power at every RPM.

My biggest problem with these new trubo engines is the sound, or lack there off. The screaming sound of the S65 with a aftermarket exhaust is half the reason i wanted one. I put up with the lack of low end power to have a 8400RPM engine that sounds pretty sick.

i would say there are more people like you than me. Most just want the power.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I say these three, 3L, inline six, same bore spacing, turbo Bimmer engines are NOT "incredibly" different. Slightly different turbo configuration, different tune. Otherwise, same basic thing. Same exact displacement, same number of cylinders, about the same redline, all turbos. It's not like I said it was the same as the (magnificent) S65 or S85 engines. This is just another 3L turbo BMW engine. You could put a tune on your X3 engine and it would be about the same thing.

Nearly (without the last statement!) totally right ... and if there are greater differences between N54/55 and the S55 to make the M engine better for track use, the most important part of an engine is even the same - the engine (powerdelivery) characteristic !!!
From an race engine like characteristic of the S65 they changed to the torque orientated characteristic of an one-for-all-engine - sure an improvement for daily drivers but an great loss of engine spirit, uniqueness and fun.

Overall the new M3/M4 is really the "best M3 ever" but despite of its engine an not because of its engine ... the rest of the car is so much better than all precessors, that the engine doesn´t count in terms of car performance.

AND only stupid 335i(only)-Fanboys will think, that the engine and powerdelivery characteristic of the S65 was like it is, because BMW M couldn´t produce an NA engine with high low end torque like the C63 AMG or Ford Mustang engine. Its all about the engine philosophy of BMW M -> "Rennsporttechnik (und -Motoren!) in Straßenfahrzeugen" ... and for all who can´t handle such an car properly there was the perfect and diverent characteristic 335i - the S65 has enough low end torque to be an good daily driver, but no single Nm more than needed, because on track only hp, linear power delivery and driveability counts and not high low end torque.

[Jockey]

So this debate is still going on after all the personal reviews saying how much they love the sound (which is still such a subjective matter it really even shouldn't be part of the debate any longer).

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

So this debate is still going on after all the personal reviews saying how much they love the sound (which is still such a subjective matter it really even shouldn't be part of the debate any longer).

A truck engine running at speeds every Honda achieves is never going to sound special. Good enough? Ok, fine, it'll sound as good as such a pedestrian design can support.

But, NO there is no universal appreciation of this low speed engine's muffled sound, and no legit track test has liked the throttle response.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

A truck engine running at speeds every Honda achieves is never going to sound special. Good enough? Ok, fine, it'll sound as good as such a pedestrian design can support.

But, NO there is no universal appreciation of this low speed engine's muffled sound, and no legit track test has liked the throttle response.

You're so biased it's funny.

I hate to tell you but the S65 didn't sound special at idle either. It's IDLE for christ's sake.

If by no legit track test you mean no review that doesn't correspond to your viewpoint hence it doesn't count.



I find the forum not quite getting the point across. I think this more eloquently describes my feelings towards your posts.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

A truck engine running at speeds every Honda achieves is never going to sound special. Good enough? Ok, fine, it'll sound as good as such a pedestrian design can support.

But, NO there is no universal appreciation of this low speed engine's muffled sound, and no legit track test has liked the throttle response.

Why are you here again? You're like the guy who claims that he's not attracted to Asian women, yet spends his time looking at pictures of them. If the F8X isn't for you, the E9X forums are awaiting your return.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

You can have a N/A engine that has low end torque. look at the C63 AMG or corvettes. They get the great sounding, low end power and more responsive engines. It just takes a big N/A engine to make good power at every RPM.

My biggest problem with these new trubo engines is the sound, or lack there off. The screaming sound of the S65 with a aftermarket exhaust is half the reason i wanted one. I put up with the lack of low end power to have a 8400RPM engine that sounds pretty sick.

i would say there are more people like you than me. Most just want the power.

Boring sound is A problem, but isn't the biggest problem.

Lag is #1.

Aesthetics is #2. Boring sound, low revs, not in any important way a special engine.

I think it's thrilling to run a V8 to 8400rpm. But even at lower rpm the S65 sounds magnificent.

In fact, on the street, anything E46 M3 on up is plenty fast. More power is almost exclusively useful on the track. That's where lag and abrupt power delivery is least tolerable. It's in spite of these flaws that the new engines power makes the car faster.

For me, 2/3 of my M3 miles are street, 1/3 are track. On the street I don't have to be breaking the law or driving crazy to get huge enjoyment from the S65. All I have to do is press the throttle and listen. Maybe drop it down a few gears. If there's no "special" aspect to the engine, then it's just a powerplant and really nothing better than a 335 on the street.

That ALWAYS special quality of these bespoke old M3 engines is a fantastic quality of life issue that is WHOLLY missing from the new ones.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

You're so biased it's funny.

Glad I could humor you!

If by no legit track test you mean no review that doesn't correspond to your viewpoint hence it doesn't count.

You're welcome to prove me wrong, but what I meant was something other than the "typical for all new cars" pre release ride or drive around that's not really a full review.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Why are you here again? You're like the guy who claims that he's not attracted to Asian women, yet spends his time looking at pictures of them.

Not sure what race or sexuality have to do with this?

I'm "here" because I choose to be. Are you here to categorize attendance motives, or just to discourage opinions you don't share?

I do keep hoping some of the turbo M fan boys here will at least make some good counter arguments and make me want one of these things. No luck so far.

If the F8X isn't for you, the E9X forums are awaiting your return.

Fortunately that's not your choice.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Not sure what race or sexuality have to do with this?

I'm "here" because I choose to be. Are you here to categorize attendance motives, or just to discourage opinions you don't share?

I do keep hoping some of the turbo M fan boys here will at least make some good counter arguments and make me want one of these things. No luck so far.




Fortunately that's not your choice.

It was an analogy imbecile.


Presenting a counter-argument is pointless because you're not looking at this objectively; you're simply here to incite. You make claims that are false, and you're unwilling to listen to reason.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

You're welcome to prove me wrong, but what I meant was something other than the "typical for all new cars" pre release ride or drive around that's not really a full review.

And all you will do is find some way to discredit it so there's really no point in posting over the half-dozen reviews where they wrung it out on the track now is there?

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It was an analogy imbecile.

Please ratchet it back.

Presenting a counter-argument is pointless because you're not looking at this objectively;

None of us are. We all have biases such as preference for throttle response, torque, sound, fuel efficiency, tuneability etc.

you're simply here to incite.

Absolutely not true. Does some emotion come into many folks posts occasionally? Heck yes, these are cars of PASSION not utility.

You make claims that are false, and you're unwilling to listen to reason.

I'm not aware of making false claims with any intent to deceive, though I concede that my description of the new engine as "an N55 with stickers and a tune" as being factually inaccurate though not meant literally.

The point was that I really don't care if it's exactly an n55 with a tune; effectively it's the same - a 3L turbo motor that just like the N54/N55 runs out of steam before 6k rpm but does make nominally more hp nearly to redline in the 7k range, sounds muted and suffers from significant lag. Freespool turbo for 7 seconds, oversquare bore/stroke, better block and cooling ... all good stuff but doesn't change my description.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

And all you will do is find some way to discredit it so there's really no point in posting over the half-dozen reviews where they wrung it out on the track now is there?

1. You can do so or not, up to you. I'd love to love this car. I'm itching for another BMW euro delivery!

2. If you have examples of claims of BETTER throttle response than the S65, please call it out right now. I say it's inferior and almost always it'll be far, far worse. Otherwise BMW wouldn't have tried to address it with the super sport mode or whatever it's called.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Boring sound is A problem, but isn't the biggest problem.

Lag is #1.

Aesthetics is #2. Boring sound, low revs, not in any important way a special engine.

I think it's thrilling to run a V8 to 8400rpm. But even at lower rpm the S65 sounds magnificent.

In fact, on the street, anything E46 M3 on up is plenty fast. More power is almost exclusively useful on the track. That's where lag and abrupt power delivery is least tolerable. It's in spite of these flaws that the new engines power makes the car faster.

For me, 2/3 of my M3 miles are street, 1/3 are track. On the street I don't have to be breaking the law or driving crazy to get huge enjoyment from the S65. All I have to do is press the throttle and listen. Maybe drop it down a few gears. If there's no "special" aspect to the engine, then it's just a powerplant and really nothing better than a 335 on the street.

That ALWAYS special quality of these bespoke old M3 engines is a fantastic quality of life issue that is WHOLLY missing from the new ones.

You make good points and i agree. The problem right now is that there is a powerful M engine that is now here, and people like power. pure and simple.

Although i will say this. give it time everything is downsizing and adding turbos, that is where the future is. Most of the performance engine coming out will have similar power, similar sound, similar engine characteristics, they are also going to be the same engine etc....


The only reason why trubo engines are cool is the power they make or can make. But once every engine has a trubo it becomes the norm.

Thats when people will look back at the old engines, and see what we were "bitching" about. trust it will happen.

[Never Convicted]

Welcome to the home of the late model E9X hissy fit thread. Be gentle with them. Or they could stomp their feet and hold their breath til they're blue.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

You make good points and i agree. The problem right now is that there is a powerful M engine that is now here, and people like power. pure and simple.

Although i will say this. give it time everything is downsizing and adding turbos, that is where the future is. Most of the performance engine coming out will have similar power, similar sound, similar engine characteristics, they are also going to be the same engine etc....


The only reason why trubo engines are cool is the power they make or can make. But once every engine has a trubo it becomes the norm.

Thats when people will look back at the old engines, and see what we were "bitching" about. trust it will happen.

As long as I can afford it, my performance car will have unique, special and cool features such as a super responsive, stratospheric revving V8 engine and a cool transmission such as DCT.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

The only reason why trubo engines are cool is the power they make or can make. But once every engine has a trubo it becomes the norm.

Thats when people will look back at the old engines, and see what we were "bitching" about. trust it will happen.

That sounds pretty ridiculous as naturally aspirated motors are more the norm than turbocharged motors.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That sounds pretty ridiculous as naturally aspirated motors are more the norm than turbocharged motors.

but don't see a huge change coming ? even the exotics are going turbos. i am talking about the future not the current.

Its a downward spiral from here. everything is going small trubo engines. watch next engine M3 be a 4 cylinder engine. people will look back at the V8 days and say "wow this use to make engines like that"

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

but don't see a huge change coming ? even the exotics are going turbos. i am talking about the future not the current.

Its a downward spiral from here. everything is going small trubo engines. watch next engine M3 be a 4 cylinder engine. people will look back at the V8 days and dam "wow this use to make engines like that"

"People" have moved the goal posts of performance since the E30 went out of production and the E36 went into production. It has always been an argument for the outgoing car (..it handles like this, has a motor like that, was raced in this series, etc.), and a tendency to minimize or lambast the incoming car. The E9X's arrival was no different, and it ventured the furthest away from BMW's 'tried & true' ///M philosophy. People act like the arrival of the E9X was met with open arms; it wasn't!

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

2. If you have examples of claims of BETTER throttle response than the S65, please call it out right now. I say it's inferior and almost always it'll be far, far worse. Otherwise BMW wouldn't have tried to address it with the super sport mode or whatever it's called.

That's not what you said ol' sport. Here's what you said:

...no legit track test has liked the throttle response.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

The point was that I really don't care if it's exactly an n55 with a tune; effectively it's the same - a 3L turbo motor that just like the N54/N55 runs out of steam before 6k rpm but does make nominally more hp nearly to redline in the 7k range, sounds muted and suffers from significant lag.

Your ignorance is showing. And the underlined part is factually untrue.

Actually, most of that entire statement is just totally wrong. Multiple people have done the math and shown the optimum shift point is 7300 RPMs. Why? Because it's still making max power and an upshift and keeps you perfectly in the max power band.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

As long as I can afford it, my performance car will have unique, special and cool features such as a super responsive, stratospheric revving V8 engine and a cool transmission such as DCT.

You act like BMW (and the S65 specifically) was the only V8 engine ever put into a car. It's a special engine, no doubt but it's not the epitome of the M3 line. If it was the end all be all, why did a V8 only find it's way into an M3 once?

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

"People" have moved the goal posts of performance since the E30 went out of production and the E36 went into production. It has always been an argument for the outgoing car (..it handles like this, has a motor like that, was raced in this series, etc.), and a tendency to minimize or lambast the incoming car. The E9X's arrival was no different, and it ventured the furthest away from BMW's 'tried & true' ///M philosophy. People act like the arrival of the E9X was met with open arms; it wasn't!

You are totally missing my point. I am not talking about a E9x vs F80. I am talking about the MASSIVE overall push from almost all car companies to reduce engine size and add turbos.

So many cars are getting reduced size and a pair of turbos. Sound and feel are changing.

I like it how today we have both forced induction engines and naturally aspirated. It makes a lot of engine diversity. I foresee a future of MOST performance cars being smaller than todays engines with electric assist/turbochargers.

BMW is now 100% trubo, Audi is going, Benz is going... There is talk of a 4 cylinder M3 coming. If i was making trubo chargers for a living, i would be getting pretty rich!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

You are totally missing my point. I am not talking about a E9x vs F80. I am talking about the MASSIVE overall push from almost all car companies to reduce engine size and add turbos.

So many cars are getting reduced size and a pair of turbos. Sound and feel are changing.

I like it how today we have both forced induction engines and naturally aspirated. It makes a lot of engine diversity. I foresee a future of MOST performance cars being smaller than todays engines with electric assist/turbochargers.

BMW is now 100% trubo, Audi is going, Benz is going... There is talk of a 4 cylinder M3 coming. If i was making trubo chargers for a living, i would be getting pretty rich!

Ok, make up your mind. You said, and I quote (..with bad sentence construction, spelling errors, etc.).......

...."Its a downward spiral from here. everything is going small trubo engines. watch next engine M3 be a 4 cylinder engine. people will look back at the V8 days and dam "wow this use to make engines like that"

That is a direct statement about the E9X and M3's in general, hence my response about M3's. I still stand by my statement. The majority of the cars on the road are naturally aspirated. Luxury variants make up a small percentage of what's on the road and what is driven by the average Joe. Yes, there are many turbocharged cars (..there have been forever.....Supras, Z's, RX-7's, etc.), but you're looking at things from the narrow enthusiast perspective, not from an overall perspective.