01-04-2019, 11:20 PM | #23 | |
General
21117
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-05-2019, 02:23 AM | #24 | |
First Lieutenant
143
Rep 320
Posts |
Quote:
Further experience, with good instruction will dramatically improve this, and you will get faster in the process. However, I agree that ultimately camber plates will be a good investment, improve handling and prolong tire life |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-05-2019, 08:46 PM | #25 | |
Second Lieutenant
145
Rep 210
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
1
CanAutM321116.50 |
01-05-2019, 09:38 PM | #26 | |
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
1821
Rep 5,337
Posts
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day
|
Quote:
There are no such thing as street or track tires. You can drive any street tires on track. The ONLY difference is each tire’s ability to manage heat. If you dive bomb each corner exceeding the slip angles intended for the tire’s operation, turn after turn, lap after lap, no amount of “track” tires are going to survive excess slip angle for long. Now, if you want to say that the Michelin Pilot Super Sports are not designed to operate above, say, 6-8 degrees of slip angle constantly? Yes I whole-heartedly agree. R-comps and slicks are required to handle 8-12 degrees of slip angle on tires consistently. But at that point you’re no longer learning to drive fast on track but relying on the tire’s ability to grip at the excess end of slip to get around corners. Someone who can consistently manage slip angle at the MPSS’s optimum slip is going to be FASTER around a typical track than someone who requires slick like slip angles if you ask me. Based on OP’s posted picture, I can only come to the conclusion that the issue is NOT the tire, but how that tire is operated.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-05-2019, 10:04 PM | #27 | |
General
21117
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black |
|
Appreciate
2
MaynardZed1231.00 M-Pilot4859.00 |
01-05-2019, 10:14 PM | #28 | |
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
1821
Rep 5,337
Posts
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day
|
Quote:
This sport is counter-intuitive. As you approach the higher end of speed, everything you’re taugh as a driver changes, or at least your instincts about going faster changes. Unless you’re taught the basics and taught the right way its hard to get better as a driver. At my first ever track event 2 decades ago, I was the “hot shoe” going around chasing down all the other noobs, riding their tail, passing people left and right. After my 5th session of the day I proudly ask my in-car coach how I was doing, and he nonchalantly listed about 2 dozen mistakes that are holding me back as a driver. “(Hack) you’re going into the turns too fast, causing you to understeer into multiple turns and unnecessarily scrubbing speed and tires. You’re not looking far enough ahead thus not getting on throttle early. You’re ham-fisting the car and not letting it do it’s thing and slowing down unnecessarily in corner entry but blowing your exit by being too aggressive with the throttle...” List goes on, and on. Being the god’s gift to drivers I demand he demonstrate what I was doing wrong, so we went out for a handful of laps in his (at the time) 15 year old car. It blew me away. Initially not in a good way, because it felt SLOW the way he was driving. Where’s the @ss presses in the seat sensation? Where’s the sore collar bone from the seatbelt digging in your shoulder? None of that. Until I looked at his speedometer. He was EASILY 8-10mph faster than I was at the end of every straight. In an old hoopty. Making at least 40 less HP. “It’s got to be the tires, right?!” Nope. He had all seasons vs my extreme summer BStones. All this isn’t to say I was a sh*tty driver. I was probably the fastest in my beginner’s group. And he did add, at the end of the list of my mistakes, suggest that the biggest positive as a asset for a beginner I have, was that I had little fear of speed, and that I was open minded and willing to learn. We worked hard for the next 2 sessions (yes that DE I attended had 7 run sessions for the group in a single day. And I drove them all) to a point where I was able to enter the turn leading on to the front straight without the front tires groaning like they just ate a bad burrito, and shockingly I picked up about 4-5 mph on the front straight (according to him, I was too overwhelmed to keep an eye on my speedometer consistently, and this was all before Harry’s Lap Timer). Why am I saying all this? I had ZERO idea that I was doing things all wrong. Comparatively I was FAST. But zero clue that I was actually destroying my tires, making a ton of mistakes, and just generally being a NOOB. I mean, I probably could have done like half a dozen more events solo, and be happy thinking I was hot sh*t, but complaining about needing to replace my BStones every other weekend. Instead I had my eyes opened by a cool dude who volunteered to sit in my car for all 7 sessions that really helped me develope as a driver. In reality. Yes I can probably drive on a set of MPSS super hard and experience chunking and separation of the tread compound near the sidewall. The MPSS aren’t designed to withstand exceeding the optimum slip angle excessively, but you HAVE to drive at a high slip angle to go fast. In that regard? MPSS isn’t the ideal tire to use consistently if you track every other weekend, because you WILL destroy them in a handful of days. But if you manage them, like you should manage ANY tire, they can last you a year on track if you’re doing half a dozen days a year.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
|
|
01-05-2019, 10:45 PM | #29 | |
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
1821
Rep 5,337
Posts
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day
|
Quote:
A buddy and I went to Mazda, er, Laguna, um, WEATHER TECH 2 years back. He had MPSS on his 340i and I had Maxxis RC-1s on my Z4 M Coupe. It wasn’t a super hot day (I don’t think Monterey EVER gets hot?), but both of us were working it for what it’s worth. At the end of the day I was only 2 seconds a lap faster than him. I chalk it up to either traffic, 2 year old r-comps, the massive torque advantage of the 340i, or the fact that he’s just a damn good driver. But his MPSSes never even remotely resembled what the OP posted. In fact the only sign that they were used on track are the usual clags that built up along the tread surface and the tell-tale blue tinge where the tread meets the sidewall. *I’m not saying you don’t know how to drive. In fact I’ve been on the various BMW forums long enough to know that you’re exceedingly qualified and are one of the more experienced and FAST drivers. I just think sometimes we forget that tire management is also a skill set to go fast and when you’ve spent so much of your track time mastering how to go fast on sticky tires, some of us forget how to go fast on not so sticky tires. So, another funny anecdote (at least I think it’s funny). My buddy and I go to the same events all the time, and occasionally, when we can, we give each other rides and constructively critique our drivings. Because no matter how good WE think we are, having another set of eyes from the passenger seat really helps. Anyway, I was riding with him at one of our favorite tracks, when I noticed his corner entry speeds were lower than I expected. I pointed it out to him, and he looked at me crossed eyed (or at least threw me a dirty look, if we were wearing open faced helmets that I can see). So next lap around, I told him to release the brakes earlier and get on the throttle...And sure enough, the car got massive sideways, nearly tank slapped our asses into the next zip code. Turns out I get so used to having more mechanical grip through turns that I was trying to drive his car from the passenger seat like I was driving MINE. And it wasn’t pretty. I kept my mouth shut for the remainder of the session and enjoyed the ride. But he never lets me forget about it. I think that’s the rut we all fall under sometimes. You drive a “street” tire expecting it to match the performance of a decent r-comp? You’re always going to end up disappointed or ruining a set rather quickly. But manage them right? They’re not nearly as slow as you think (2 seconds a lap is the difference between RC-1 and a set of Hoosier R7s, I was told by a team that has ran both.)
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2019, 08:56 AM | #30 |
Lieutenant Colonel
1231
Rep 1,789
Posts
Drives: wife crazy
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Phoenix
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2019 Ford Raptor [0.00]
2016 Porsche 991.1 ... [0.00] 1987 Chevy Camaro I ... [0.00] 1972 Chevy Corvette [0.00] 1999 BMW M3 race car [0.00] |
LOL at being able to diagnose the OP's and other's driving techniques and abilities from one still picture or post.
LOL even more that the OP was somehow scrub braking / coming in so hot on his very first track day ever. You can get chunking like that easily on PSS with an M4 just from understeer which is more likely what the OP was doing. Some folks on here do live up to their screen names.
__________________
Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352 Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889 |
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2019, 10:27 PM | #32 |
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
1821
Rep 5,337
Posts
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day
|
I think 15 years of instructing with a variety of track organizations, including BMW CCA, qualifies me to make such assessment.
I’ve seen enough of this type of wear on a variety of street tires to know exactly what happened. My experience and expertise working in the tire industry (albeit in marketing) means I am far more qualified then your average forum keyboard warrior to assess, as you said, “from a single picture.” Eventhough it doesn’t take an expert to be able to tell that this is the result of overdriving the tire by an inexperienced driver, I am confident to say that MY opinion on the matter is about as close to a qualified expert opinion as you’re going to get on an Internet forum as one is likely to find. What is YOUR qualification, pray tell?
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-07-2019, 12:06 AM | #33 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
1231
Rep 1,789
Posts
Drives: wife crazy
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Phoenix
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2019 Ford Raptor [0.00]
2016 Porsche 991.1 ... [0.00] 1987 Chevy Camaro I ... [0.00] 1972 Chevy Corvette [0.00] 1999 BMW M3 race car [0.00] |
Quote:
Nevertheless, I’m glad you feel you’re well qualified, but there’s been many threads in this section over the last 5 years about how inadequate the stock PSS are for track use on the F8X platform. From novice to advanced, the tires just don’t last long on a dry track. If you’re able to hustle your PSS equipped M4 around the track without destroying them, more power to you. Maybe you can post some videos with some tips for the rest of us?
__________________
Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352 Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-07-2019, 03:34 PM | #35 |
Enlisted Member
10
Rep 33
Posts |
Thanks for the feedback
Thanks again for everyone's input on this. I will quickly admit that my lack of experience was a big contributor to the tire wear; another guy was in the same group driving a significantly modded 440, running almost as fast, and at the end of the day his MPSS's weren't nearly as worn as mine! I'm looking forward to getting good coaching to help me optimize my feel for the track and not just rely on the brute force of the M3.
One other question: I believe my M3 (with competition package) currently has 20 inch wheels. It sounds like I should go to an 18 inch staggered set for my track set? And can I change out to Ferodo or Pagid brake pads and leave them on for daily driving? |
Appreciate
0
|
01-07-2019, 07:55 PM | #36 | |||
Captain
368
Rep 697
Posts |
Quote:
Again, these Michelins can (in my experience as well) produce solid lap times as long as they're driven at 6-7/10ths and on the left-side of the curve so to speak. They won't chunk if modulated, but they will wear faster than those tires more specifically designed to deal with track-duty. +-2 second delta give or take. I'm a bit surprised the other guys in this thread were so vocal against your posts as they seem quite experienced and knowledgeable as well. Quote:
Quote:
If you're serious about doing HPDEs then I would suggest going straight to an 18" wheel setup. Alternatively you could consider OEM 19" wheels but you'll be limited on the tire width in the future. As far as brakes, skip the Pagids and go straight to Ferodo line-up. Lastly, consider camber plates and/or coilovers for a multitude of reasons. |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
01-08-2019, 02:29 PM | #37 | |
Lieutenant General
3187
Rep 10,509
Posts |
Quote:
I did some fun runs on those tires in my EV and they were still wearing out somewhat fast and getting greasy. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-08-2019, 03:15 PM | #38 | |
Lieutenant General
3187
Rep 10,509
Posts |
Quote:
My $0.02 on your other question similar to CanAut, In terms of using a trailing brake going into the apex then rolling on the throttle as much as you can, as soon as you can. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-08-2019, 08:04 PM | #39 |
Lieutenant General
18705
Rep 14,115
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
I can't compare to MPSS, but I ran for 77 laps at Willow Springs on MPS4S with no chunking. 7 or 8 sessions, 20-30 minutes each. It was 60-65 degrees all day, tires were at 28 psi cold, running between 34-36 hot if I recall correctly. No cording, no chunking. Granted, I was not overdriving the tires. I agree with the theory that the OP was probably too hot in almost every single corner. That kind of damage is excessive, it looks absolutely toasted.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
Appreciate
0
|
01-11-2019, 10:27 PM | #40 | |
Major General
2751
Rep 6,759
Posts |
Quote:
And get the tires, wheels and TPMS shipped directly to the shop for mounting and balancing.
__________________
2018 F80 Santorini 2019 Z4 3.0i 2022 X2 M35i |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-12-2019, 12:18 PM | #42 |
Brigadier General
3663
Rep 3,422
Posts |
As CanAutM3 has rightly pointed out a few times in this thread, it's the sustained dry track use that dooms PSS and the newer PS4S.
I've run either or both tires on track with R8, M3, M4, and the new M5. Regardless of the platform, they are 2-3 laps "on," 1 lap "off" tires. They need a recovery period. Push through the (very obvious) point of overheating and they'll fail. Some track days and tracks are conducive to this session approach, others not so much. And some drivers prefer this approach to a session -- I still do from time to time, especially in the later sessions. A cool down lap to reset both driver and car. If you're learning with an instructor, it's a good chance for discussion. So these aren't dedicated track tires by any means, but I'd hate for novices, or drivers who prefer a more relaxed approach to track days to dismiss them. They're excellent on track, excellent tires to learn with, perfect for wet track days. You just have to be aware and drive within their thermal limitations.
__________________
M4 GTS, GT3, C63 S | E90 M3s, E39 M5
|
Appreciate
1
CanAutM321116.50 |
01-12-2019, 05:55 PM | #43 | |
General
21117
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
First, to clarify my interpretation of some terminology to ensure my point is clear. I consider that "overdriving" is when pushing beyond the equipment capabilities which results in slower lap times. "Underdriving" is the opposite where the full performance potential of the equipment is not being exploited due to not pushing hard enough. Most beginners and intermediate drivers actually do a combination of over and under-driving, but the majority of beginners underdrive way more than they overdrive. As experience increases, drivers will progressively narrow their window of over and under-driving to get closer to that ultimate ideal "limit" of driving. There are in fact very few drivers that are able to actually drive constantly on that knife edge limit, and I certainly do not consider myself one of them (otherwise I would be driving for a living ). That being said, the PSS does not need to be overdriven to melt and chunk away. It can be driven at 10/10th for a lap or two without over-wearing, however, as soon as it starts to build up heat, it starts to destroy itself on the softer outer portion of the tread, hence the precision I made about it being unsuitable for SUSTAINED dry track use. Sure, one can underdrive the PSS at 7/10th to prevent it from building up too much heat over an entire session and avoid excessive wear, but one is not getting the fastest times out of the tire by doing so; and where's the fun in that . As long as the car is pointing in the right direction at the apex, there is no way I will be faster around a corner by being slower at the apex from having braked more going in, it's simple physics dynamics. I love the PSS as a street tire and wet track tire, but there are many other street tires that do not suffer the same fate as the PSS with sustained 10/10th track driving.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver
Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black Last edited by CanAutM3; 01-13-2019 at 07:27 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
arashir164.00 |
01-23-2019, 01:47 PM | #44 |
Enlisted Member
10
Rep 33
Posts |
Brake pads and rotors too!
Welp, I think it's obvious by now that I need to learn to drive a little more smoothly! I took the car in to the local BMW dealer to get a couple of body squeaks looked at and also some significant growling from the brakes following my first track day. They just called and told me that they are replacing the pads and rotors all around. The car only has 3,000 miles on it. The service rep said that "they look like they had quite a bit of action on them" but BMW agreed to replace them so that's what they're doing.
Local upgrade shop is recommending Pagids over Ferodo but I'm not going to change them out each time so this board seems to prefer Ferodo since they are more quiet and perform better on the track. Also looking at Apex EC-7 18 inch track wheels with a stud conversion kit. Shop is suggesting Bridgestone RE71R or Toyo Proxes RA-1. Finally, shop is recommending Adjustable Lower Control Arms vs. Ground Control camber plates. Any opinions on this set up? Will probably track 4-6 times per year here in South Florida. Thanks again everyone. |
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|