|
View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ? | |||
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable | 93 | 45.81% | |
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine | 110 | 54.19% | |
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll |
Post Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
01-03-2014, 11:46 PM | #486 |
Private First Class
7
Rep 187
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 02:58 AM | #487 |
Lieutenant Colonel
81
Rep 1,656
Posts |
I am not even so sure how you can compare both right now. As most of us have not driven the S55. Thus, in my opinion it is too early to pass a verdict as which one is better.
I have driven an S65 on multiple occasions and N54 tuned which I own for over 4.3 years. While the N54 is good as a daily driver with lots of low down torque and nice broad power band, as well as easily modifiable, with decent gas mileage. I can't deny that the character of the S65 with its wailing sound and over 8K rpm redline with super quick revving feel and immediate throttle response has a more performance oriented feel to it that I would like to desire when I hit a track. To me the S65 has the excitement on its side while N54 has practicality on its side. Lets, hope that the S55 can give us best of the both rather then just being a souped up N54.
__________________
nickname"BAD 3",MHD E85 tune,RennArt catback non-resonated exhaust,VRSF Downpipes, VRSF 7"FMIC,VRSF stock side inlets,SSQV BOV,ECS CP,M-performance alcantara steering,retrofit M3 paddle shifters,Alpina B3 tranny flash,AFE power seal CAI,LED angels,ST Coilovers,M3 upper/lower control arms,E93 M3 Front Swaybar ,235/35/19x9 ,275/30/19x9.5. M sport bumpers, CF diffuser. When in doubt..flat out.
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 04:07 AM | #488 | |
Major General
1718
Rep 5,110
Posts |
Quote:
And what you haven't taken into account in your anticipation of future engines are new technologies, like hybrid drivetrain. Just look at LaFerrari and Porsche 918. They combine high rpm NA engines with electrical engine. Creating a car with excellent official CO2 and consumption numbers. And with a low torque high rpm NA engine (the hybrid power takes care of low down grunt and means that the petrol engine doesn't have to be as torquey low down and engineers are free to create a more "racey" engine). The 918 Spyder gets 94mpg and 70g/km of CO2... WAY better than the S55 That tech is too expensive for a 911 or a M3 today. But we might see that stuff in the future even on ordinary cars like the M3 etc! In fact, I believe that my favourite drivetrain for the next gen M3/M4 would be a high revving NA I6/V8 with hybrid power. NO lag whatsoever and a combination of low end power from the hybrid drivetrain, excellent high rpm NA engine and fantastic fuel consumption and CO2 numbers Remember that you read it here first Last edited by Boss330; 01-04-2014 at 05:00 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 04:53 AM | #489 | |
Major General
1718
Rep 5,110
Posts |
Quote:
Valvetronic takes care of the TB business on modern BMW engines. So, in effect every BMW engine with Valvetronic has what equals ITB, since air flow to each cylinder is controlled by the valve lift on each cylinder. In fact, probably better than ITB since the intake valves only allow air flow when air flow is needed. On a ITB setup the TB is still open even though the cylinder is not drawing air in (like on the combustion or exhaust stroke). And some DI engines today don't even have a throttle at all, they run like a diesel (but with a spark plug obviously) with only the amount of fuel injected regulating the power output. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 07:48 AM | #490 | ||
Law Enforcer
25114
Rep 22,288
Posts
Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!
|
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 08:36 AM | #491 | ||
General
21117
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
Quote:
IMO, a big benefit of dispensing with the throttle bodies is a significant reduction of pumping losses, especially at smaller throttle openings. IIRC, earlier versions of Valvetronic were not deemed "fast enough" for applications in ///M engines (S85 and S65). This is why they retained the individual throttle bodies. With the advancement of the technology, Valvetronic was first applied on an ///M engine with the S63. Quote:
Any references to such an engine? I would be interested to read about it. Last edited by CanAutM3; 01-04-2014 at 09:27 AM.. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 11:10 AM | #492 | |||
Major General
1718
Rep 5,110
Posts |
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection However,many DI engine runs at WOT most of the time, and the power produced is governed by the amount of fuel injected. Here is some info on DI: Old article from 2007 on DI: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_107830/article.html Quote:
http://www.bosch-automotivetechnolog...jection_1.html An older, but very detailed, article on GDI: http://web.iitd.ac.in/~pmvs/ICengines/paper12.pdf From the Audi manual on the 3.0 TFSI engine (p 27): http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/925803_3.0V6TFSIengine.pdf Quote:
|
|||
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 11:20 AM | #493 | ||
Captain
48
Rep 611
Posts |
Quote:
To piggyback on this, ITBs are just a means to an end. There are many other--perhaps better--routes to the same engine design goals. Just for fun, though, can anyone name another currently for sale production vehicle with ITBs? The E93 M3 of course is one. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 11:20 AM | #494 | |
Major
382
Rep 1,170
Posts
Drives: 2020 F97 X3M
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoFla/ATL
|
Quote:
__________________
2011 MINI CooperS BRGII/Lounge Green/Sport/Prem/Connect/Black Xenon/Black Conical Spokes/ACS springs/ACS exhaust/Alta Shorty/Yokohama Advan Sport A/S
2012 M3 AW/FR NDH2/2MK/ZPP/ZCP/ZCW/752/6NR/OEM CF splitters/OEM CF Mirror caps (retired) 2012 X3 35i Titanium Silver/Black ZAP/ZPP/TECH/APPS/Breyton GTS (retired) 2018 X3 M40i BSM/Oyster/ZPP/ZPX/HK/S6CPA/718M(retired) |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 12:22 PM | #495 | |
Brigadier General
380
Rep 3,934
Posts |
Quote:
and ya i believe it or not. i would love a high revving n/a I6 also. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2014, 02:10 PM | #496 |
Major General
5457
Rep 7,037
Posts |
Pretty much all race tuned, free revving high rpm NA engines has great sound, character and throttle response independent on how many cylinders they have and how the cylinders are lined up.
This little 750cc 4 banger street engine for example sounds and responds better than pretty much any turbo engine. Just the way things are. Physics and all. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-14-2014, 02:11 PM | #497 |
Major General
5457
Rep 7,037
Posts |
The S65 was an incredible value and I'm not sure I see something similar with the F80. Hopefully the overall package will still make it so since I'm likely be getting one.
BMW must be smiling though. "See Gunther I told you! We can stop this expensive bespoke engines and put in a tuned standard engine AND raise prices people will still hail it as a great price". Last edited by solstice; 01-14-2014 at 02:16 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 01:39 AM | #498 |
Lieutenant General
611
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Nice, exactly.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 06:14 AM | #499 | |
Moderator
7515
Rep 19,368
Posts |
Quote:
A 1M has a tuned series engine. The F8x uses the S55, derived from the N55. Just like the S50/S52/S54 I6 in past M3s are derived from series engines, but completely reengineered. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 07:11 AM | #500 |
Lieutenant General
2288
Rep 13,001
Posts |
I think that what the 1M did was to define the real meaning of what a "tuned series engine" really is from the point of view of corporate cost reduction. Other than the overboost feature the sucker was exactly like the series engine. Exactly. In other words, the end of what ///M used to do.
Every other ///M engine went thru much more significant and invasive variations of series engines, not just "tuned". Like displacement changes, block changes, individual throttles, even cylinder count. With that said, now more than ever an M5/M6 is a tuned 550i/650i, the X5M/X6M is a tuned X5/X6 and finally a M3/M4 is a tuned 335i/435i. Try to even fathom saying that of a past M3 and M5 and you will know what I am talking about. Like I said before, I will get an F80 M3. Without doubt this will perform better than any M3 before. But that does not mean that I do not know that I am getting less than what I used to get in an ///M. The value, that intangible thing that will kill car models sooner of later, is just not there anymore. You can see value in the new Corvette, in the new Mustang, even in the upcoming C63. In this one, not as much as before. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 07:34 AM | #501 | |
S0THPAW
8717
Rep 7,846
Posts |
Quote:
IRL the engine is 50% more thrilling than on paper and 100% more thrilling in everyday use than the 'exotic' V8 in the E9xM3. The whole package being in 9/10 ways a better and sportier performer than the E9x M3 ever was. A classic and true successor to the legendary E30 M3 and E46 M3 CSL. I hope the F8x M3 will do the same... And talking about true VALUE LOL. The 1M has it. [/rant] Cheers Robin |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 07:48 AM | #502 | ||
Lieutenant
177
Rep 464
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by BMW M3 CRT; 01-16-2014 at 08:02 AM.. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 08:11 AM | #504 |
Lieutenant General
2288
Rep 13,001
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 08:30 AM | #505 |
Private
3
Rep 56
Posts |
For those of us who yearn for the good ole days of ///M we're better off with the E36/46 M3s.
At this point based on everything I have seen...///M is dead to me. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-16-2014, 08:46 AM | #506 | |||
Moderator
7515
Rep 19,368
Posts |
Hi there Technic. Good post. I do have some comments.
Quote:
Regarding cost - lets also keep in mind that the cost of not using the N54 in the 1M may very well have been to not build the 1M at all, given the age of the E82 and the timing of the product. In the real world, we can't always throw more money at a problem to get it done faster. Maybe small company X can design an all new engine for new product Y on arbitrary timeline Z, but let's keep our expectations in line with reality for the corporate world. Given the proper development timeframe, M has taken the approach of thoroughly reengineering the series engine for the F1x M-proper vehicles and F8x M-proper vehicles. I'll bet you believe they will do the same with F2x M-proper products as well. Am I right? Quote:
Turbocharging can make a displacement change unnecessary, right? Well, I mean you can do whatever you want, but if you meet the performance target with no displacement change from the parent engine, then you can't really make a business case in saying "yeah, but let's bump it up just because it makes it special". Valvetronic and HPI make individual throttle bodies redundant too. Sure you can still use ITB, but again there's no reason to add complexity if it does not benefit performance and responsiveness. Now, should M engines even be using things like Valvetronic and turbocharging? Well, that's another argument. My point is that the transformations we saw M make in the past to series engines were all very purposeful and not to make sure the engine met some quota of unique parts or satisfied some layman's terms of specialness. This is important to keep in mind. I know you know this, and others do too. But sometimes we get spoiled by side-effects and come to appreciate them more than the simplicity that was the motivation for the elixir. Quote:
I wouldn't presume to tell other people how to see the world. We all have our grouses. I do notice that lately around here there is a lot of apparent hostility, vilification and finger pointing. I'm not sure its all properly placed, properly substantiated, deserved, fair, and frankly - a healthy approach. Make no mistake, the almighty dollar figures in, but what appears to be overlooked more often than not is that the cost of doing business changes. |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|