CCB Maintenance Costs

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I'm sorry, but I'm going to go with the accuracy of the "local" scales as being pretty good. The fact that they both (BMW SC scale and my Scale) weigh very close to each other is pretty indicative of this fact. I don't feel it necessary to have to weigh additional coinage to satisfy this finding.

I really don't have any way to check/compare the accuracy of the PDC scale though.

Additionally, The M5/M6 and the M3/M4 CCB's ***ARE*** different. They have different dimensions and may be subject to some sub-generational design and/or compositional changes as well. The trick is finding out what the starting mass of the rotors is. I think the numbers I have calculated are reasonably close. I don't think there is anything magical about how the "min" weight is calculated. I thoroughly expect that the min allowable weight is simply the starting weight minus some allowable loss. It is the allowable loss which will help us determine how far into a rotor we are by comparing its current weight vs the min allowable weight. There is, in fact, a document which specifically identifies the allowable loss for the M5 CCB's - but unfortunately NOT the M3/M4 discs. So barring this info from BMW, we must calculate that value and it should be as easy as comparing the weight of a fresh disc vs its stamped min weight.

Also, The wear indicators are NOT a particularly gtood method to determine rotor wear. In fact, the CCB docs state that the wear indicators are used to simply indicate when it is time to remove the rotor and actually weigh it. They are only visual wear indicators and NOT the final deciding factor.

I'm in the process of purchasing a Carboteq instrument. It really is the only way to acurately determine the wear state of CCB rotors. Even the min weight is merely an approximation and is subject to mechanical contamination (debris) and deterioration (chipping).

Based on the wieghts I see on my removed/used front rotors, I'm thinking I have about 60-70% life still left in them (by using the estimated allowable loss, current weight, and min allowable weight). Once I get the Carboteq, it will be pretty easy to see how close this estimates are. (The discs are stamped with a starting/min inductance measurement in three places on each rotor).

I'll be sure to post my findings in this thread once I get the Carboteq...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Also, The wear indicators are NOT a particularly gtood method to determine rotor wear. In fact, the CCB docs state that the wear indicators are used to simply indicate when it is time to remove the rotor and actually weigh it. They are only visual wear indicators and NOT the final deciding factor.

The CCB docs seem to me to be pretty categoric of what needs to be done with the wear indicators:

[evanevery]

BMW would like you to replace the rotors as often as possible. Better to err on the safe side and make more money (for them). That's OK, but even though the parameters for examining and evaluating the wear indicators are fairly specific, the actual process of estimating their condition visually is somewhat subjective and error prone.

The only precise method of determining rotor wear is to use the Carboteq instrument. In fact, industry wide (BMW, Porsche,...) stamp their discs with the starting and min Carboteq inductance value in three places on each disc. This even includes the laser alignment mark required to use the instrument.

BMW recognizes that most folks will not have access to this type of equipment (inc their service centers) and has no problems suggesting that the visual indicators, or rotor weight, be used to "estimate" when rotors need to be replaced. Conservative and lucrative!

I'm working with my friends at INd and they are working to set themselves up as a distributor for the Carboteq device. I'm expecting their first sale to go to me once they get the relationship established.

Although the device is not cheap, it could easily pay for itself if it saves one premature CCB rotor pair replacement...

[gmarshman]

Hi guys, I am selling my CCB rotors from my 2015 M4

$3,000 OBO. Here is the link to the ad over in the classifieds.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1317903

[infamousdiz]

Originally Posted by evanevery

This just in! Just got a call from my Service guy...

My M4 needs both pads and rotors for front AND rear. Its $9000 for front rotors and pads and $7700 for rear rotors and pads.

So $16,700 for both ends fully done. ...and I don't even have 4000 miles on the car yet! (OK... OK... so most of those miles were on the track...)

Anyway, the front left weighed in at 7356g with a min stamped weight of 7215g. I think I remember reading the min allowable weight was based on a 1000g allowable loss, that means my fronts had about 14% remaining.

The rear right weighed in at 5802g out of an allowable 5734g. If the allowable loss on the rears is 1000g like the fronts, then I have only 6.8% left on the rears. This may not be the case though as the rear rotors are a bit lighter than the fronts...

Anyway... That's the poop!

You are better off buying a boat and developing a heavy cocaine habit

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The CCB docs seem to me to be pretty categoric of what needs to be done with the wear indicators:

These markers didn't work for me. I sent a complaint email to BMW customer service because the markers were in horrible condition after 20k miles on the road and 6-7 Trackdays. They took the car in and removed the rotors and weighed them and here we go all the rotors were still around 100g over the minimum weight stamped. They gave my car back but still the feeling, sounds and vibrations are continuing, I'm planning to change my braking fluid with a hope that it may help somehow :

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

These markers didn't work for me. I sent a complaint email to BMW customer service because the markers were in horrible condition after 20k miles on the road and 6-7 Trackdays. They took the car in and removed the rotors and weighed them and here we go all the rotors were still around 100g over the minimum weight stamped. They gave my car back but still the feeling, sounds and vibrations are continuing, I'm planning to change my braking fluid with a hope that it may help somehow :

Not sure if you've read lemetier posts, but the weighing of the rotors does not seem very reliable either depending on the care taken during the weighing process. If contaminants are present on/in the rotor (such as pad deposit or moisture), they could show an erroneous higher weight.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Not sure if you've read lemetier posts, but the weighing of the rotors does not seem very reliable either depending on the care taken during the weighing process. If contaminants are present on/in the rotor (such as pad deposit or moisture), they could show an erroneous higher weight.

His case is the first one on here where weighing was done and only after pushing the issue with BMW AG and his service center receiving instruction on MCCB. When the visual indicator(s) have completely disappeared, it's going to be loud, cause the pads to groove, and induce vibrations. The surface area of each indicator is greater than the maximum spauling loss permitted.

So far there have been variances of +120g to +380g on used discs, and new ones in between.

Instead of continuing to go round and round, I called a contact in Garching last week and the info is 5 days past due.

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by lemetier

His case is the first one on here where weighing was done and only after pushing the issue with BMW AG and his service center receiving instruction on MCCB. When the visual indicator(s) have completely disappeared, it's going to be loud, cause the pads to groove, and induce vibrations. The surface area of each indicator is greater than the maximum spauling loss permitted.

So far there have been variances of +120g to +380g on used discs, and new ones in between.

Instead of continuing to go round and round, I called a contact in Garching last week and the info is 5 days past due.

So I won't be able to have them as they were no matter what I do? I will have to be okay with vibrations and noise, but is it safe I wonder.. I already got my replacement rotors but I want to use the current ones if they aren't done, because I don't want to pay for replacements every year and trackdays season is almost gone anyways.
Please excuse my ignorance but what's Garching?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

So I won't be able to have them as they were no matter what I do? I will have to be okay with vibrations and noise, but is it safe I wonder.. I already got my replacement rotors but I want to use the current ones if they aren't done, because I don't want to pay for replacements every year and trackdays season is almost gone anyways.
Please excuse my ignorance but what's Garching?

The visual indicators are also designed to give an aural indication as well so that someone does actually look. It's just as you've described before; like stones grinding together. Garching is the headquarters for M GmbH and they issue the MCCB Tech Documents.

Are they done? According to the guidelines for initial visual inspection they are and have been for some time.

Are they safe? I would fail the car at safety inspection and not allow it on course.

[cookiesowns]

So given the data we have now regarding the CCB, does one think they are still worth it, with the idea that you're going to swap to RB Irons & pads for track use, and swap back when not planning on tracking for a longer period of time?

I'm still debating ticking the CCB option on a 17/18 F80 M3 order.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

So given the data we have now regarding the CCB, does one think they are still worth it, with the idea that you're going to swap to RB Irons & pads for track use, and swap back when not planning on tracking for a longer period of time?

I'm still debating ticking the CCB option on a 17/18 F80 M3 order.

If you are planning to track the car more than on a few occasions, going with iron rotors is the most cost sensible option.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

If you are planning to track the car more than on a few occasions, going with iron rotors is the most cost sensible option.

Iron conversion, or just sticking to the 4/2 pot stock calipers?

I'm still curious to hear reviews on the 6/4pot CCB calipers with the Iron conversions, guess I'll heave to do some..

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

Iron conversion, or just sticking to the 4/2 pot stock calipers?

I'm still curious to hear reviews on the 6/4pot CCB calipers with the Iron conversions, guess I'll heave to do some..

The stock irons with proper track pads work perfectly fine for me.

The big drawback of going with iron rotors on the CCB setup is the rather steep increase in unsprung and rotating mass.

[adc]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The stock irons with proper track pads work perfectly fine for me.

The big drawback of going with iron rotors on the CCB setup is the rather steep increase in unsprung and rotating mass.

Wouldn't that also be the case with a traditional BBK? But people seem to like the benefits more than the drawbacks.

I like the stock irons with Pagid pads for track work, but I do manage the brakes a little. If I don't, I can only put on 2-3 quick laps before the brakes overheat. (At least at the tracks I've been to).

I mean I still think you're getting better value from a well chosen BBK over the CCBs, at least for the track. But if say "inherit" a car with CCBs (if you buy secund hand or leftover dealer stock) and don't want them, this would be a good choice maybe.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The stock irons with proper track pads work perfectly fine for me.

The big drawback of going with iron rotors on the CCB setup is the rather steep increase in unsprung and rotating mass.

Agree the rotating mass is pretty substantial.

Do you think moving to the iron rotor would help the squeal of the CCBs?

I'm worried that it's more of a caliper design issue than a CCB rotor and pad issue.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by CSanto

Agree the rotating mass is pretty substantial.

Do you think moving to the iron rotor would help the squeal of the CCBs?

I'm worried that it's more of a caliper design issue than a CCB rotor and pad issue.

I am not an expert in CCB, but my understanding is that the pad compound used on CCB relies mostly on adhesive/transfer friction, hence why they squeal more.

Track pads for the iron rotors are also more biased towards adhesive/transfer friction, hence why they share behavior traits with the CCB such as squealing, less bite when cold/wet and better resistance to fade and high temperatures.

So going with iron rotors paired with street pads (that rely mostly on abrasive friction) would mostly eliminate the squealing IMO.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not an expert in CCB, but my understanding is that the pad compound used on CCB relies mostly on adhesive/transfer friction, hence why they squeal more.

Track pads for the iron rotors are also more biased towards adhesive/transfer friction, hence why they share behavior traits with the CCB such as squealing, less bite when cold/wet and better resistance to fade and high temperatures.

So going with iron rotors paired with street pads (that rely mostly on abrasive friction) would mostly eliminate the squealing IMO.

I wish you had the CCBs so you could dissect them, I've tried to figure them out but nothing has worked except rinsing the rotors.

They actually squeal when NOT braking as well lol. For whatever reason turning the wheel slightly also gives off a noise.

[gmarshman]

Originally Posted by CSanto

I wish you had the CCBs so you could dissect them, I've tried to figure them out but nothing has worked except rinsing the rotors.

They actually squeal when NOT braking as well lol. For whatever reason turning the wheel slightly also gives off a noise.

This was totally my experience. Like some other clueless people on here I bought the CCB's on the theory that more is better (and they look cool.). For me, they were a mistake. I don't track the car and the brake squeal from the CCB's went from a nuisance to really annoying. They are designed to run hot and once they are hot they are quiet and the performance is awesome, no doubt. But as a daily driver I basically couldn't stand them.

The ultimate solution for me was to do the Racing Brake iron rotor conversion which I don't have the link to but you can find on here if you search. I think the total cost was $3,500 including the new pads, etc. The good news is that I was able to sell the CCB rotors and OEM pads for close to what the new iron rotors cost. So now the brakes are quiet, performance is still awesome. The extra mass is noticeable at first but it doesn't take away from my driving enjoyment.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by gmarshman

This was totally my experience. Like some other clueless people on here I bought the CCB's on the theory that more is better (and they look cool.). For me, they were a mistake. I don't track the car and the brake squeal from the CCB's went from a nuisance to really annoying. They are designed to run hot and once they are hot they are quiet and the performance is awesome, no doubt. But as a daily driver I basically couldn't stand them.

The ultimate solution for me was to do the Racing Brake iron rotor conversion which I don't have the link to but you can find on here if you search. I think the total cost was $3,500 including the new pads, etc. The good news is that I was able to sell the CCB rotors and OEM pads for close to what the new iron rotors cost. So now the brakes are quiet, performance is still awesome. The extra mass is noticeable at first but it doesn't take away from my driving enjoyment.

So you did the RB conversion and it got rid of ALL noise!?

I may seriously have to do this.

[gmarshman]

Yup. It is the ultimate solution. Here's the link to the conversion kit:

http://www.racingbrake.com/RB-2pc-Ro...bmw-irk-11.htm

[gmarshman]

Originally Posted by gmarshman

Yup. It is the ultimate solution. Here's the link to the conversion kit:

http://www.racingbrake.com/RB-2pc-Ro...bmw-irk-11.htm

The only caveats to doing this concern how much wear you have on your existing rotors, and determining this to the satisfaction of your buyer. There is a really good thread on this here:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...cb+maintenance