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      10-06-2020, 01:42 PM   #89
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Think it partly depends on the driver, but 6k miles would be enough to wreck a set of CCBs, given the broad estimates of ~20 +-10 lapping day(presumable ~3 hour days) lifetimes for CCBs. IMO regardless of CCB condition, chuck them and go to some good old fashioned iron, and try to negotiate down the price based on that assumption.

No dealership is going to pull the rotors off to weigh them for you. Like FormulaMMM said, they'll just wait until someone comes around that doesn't question it.
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      10-06-2020, 01:59 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Welcome.

Wear indicators begin to pit, not really discolor. They are dark unworn.

I think you've outlined a good negotiating position.

But in reality, if you intend to track the car don't replace the ccb -- you have to jump to another system.

Front end damage and splitter too, though? post pics?
But it would be nice to still have a set of serviceable ccb's at the price. By your description, these ccb's are still ok for dd purposes. I track my cars multiple times per year so I will upgrade to some type of iron rotor set-up if I manage to get my hands on a GTS.


Here's info on the upper carbon splitter crack. (hopefully attached)
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      10-06-2020, 02:01 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
As far as ccb discs -- experienced concerning wear/pitting after ~250 miles of track driving. Have not bothered to weigh because the writing was on the wall in terms of ongoing use.
Agreed, but interestingly, I have seen CCB rotors where the wear indicators looked pretty janky and the weights were significantly (170g) above the minimum. Most discs only have about 200g of wearable material.

You need the official Carboteq tool to truly know, but it's preposterously expensive. The cheapest I've seen is $7.1k

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Chimp View Post
But it would be nice to still have a set of serviceable ccb's at the price. By your description, these ccb's are still ok for dd purposes. I track my cars multiple times per year so I will upgrade to some type of iron rotor set-up if I manage to get my hands on a GTS.

Here's info on the upper carbon splitter crack. (hopefully attached)
Mine has a similar crack - it was from the PO running over a parking stop and the rebar caught the splitter.

RW makes an exact replica for $799 (was previously on sale at $736): https://www.rw carbon.com/bmw-f80-m3...fiber-lip.html

Last edited by 4play; 10-06-2020 at 02:07 PM..
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      10-06-2020, 02:16 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
How do you know the car had a track off? I run my DD GTS without the lower splitter and my upper splitter is in way worse shape than that car. I have the original lower splitter as well as a spare lower/upper for when I sell the car, but there's no point replacing it when it gets beat up from daily use.

I would guess the owner ran over a speed bump/parking stop and damaged the lower splitter, then just left it off.

Upper splitter is $750 from RW and a lower splitter is about $1k from RKP or IND. Don't know where the $5k comes from.

...

If it's a 3rd car and just sits in your garage most of the time, I get it. But buying a pristine car to track it doesn't make any sense to me.

A previous post mentioned that the car had a track-off, I believe.

My replacement part prices were online quotes for OEM pieces. Both numbers you quote are aftermarket re-pops, I think. I would likely want a new OEM carbon upper splitter and a repop lower splitter. I drive around in a Lotus Exige in LA, so I relate to the low clearance issue (and the stiff ride).

If I manage to get my hands on a GTS, it will be used on track like all my cars. I don't have much of a practical need for a car so I buy them for the fun factor.
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      10-06-2020, 02:36 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
The ToyBarn car with the MCS coilovers is interesting. I don't know enough to visually differentiate MCS setups based on the remote reservoir, but that's potentially a $6k-$8k setup with camber plates(assuming it has them still installed). Car was obviously someone's track toy. If you're looking for a track car that could be a real strong start. I'd try to get that car for $70k with the expectation that you're chucking $8k at aftermarket brakes OR just swap to some M2C rotors and run the OEM calipers for cheap. There's a chance the CCBs are mint, and the car ran on an aftermarket BBK with the CCBs collecting dust on a shelf.
It's a 3WR MCS setup, 8k before install. And it has full SPL goodies and Hotchins sways. All the suspension stuff has one track day on it.

The CCBs are not in good condition.

I was going to buy this car in Q1 2022 but the owner listed it too early. I can't have the CS, the GTS, the E90 stroker and the E92... and then 2 street cars.
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      10-06-2020, 02:41 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
Think it partly depends on the driver, but 6k miles would be enough to wreck a set of CCBs, given the broad estimates of ~20 +-10 lapping day(presumable ~3 hour days) lifetimes for CCBs. IMO regardless of CCB condition, chuck them and go to some good old fashioned iron, and try to negotiate down the price based on that assumption.

No dealership is going to pull the rotors off to weigh them for you. Like FormulaMMM said, they'll just wait until someone comes around that doesn't question it.
Thanks for the input. I figured the reason they didn't weigh the rotors is because of the time cost and because if they need replacing, they don't want to pay for it!

I might take a ride up the coast this weekend to take a closer look. This one might be up my alley.
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      10-06-2020, 02:42 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's a 3WR MCS setup, 8k before install. And it has full SPL goodies and Hotchins sways. All the suspension stuff has one track day on it.

The CCBs are not in good condition.

I was going to buy this car in Q1 2022 but the owner listed it too early. I can't have the CS, the GTS, the E90 stroker and the E92... and then 2 street cars.
What's one more car when you already have 5?
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      10-06-2020, 03:15 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Chimp View Post
A previous post mentioned that the car had a track-off, I believe.
The post said missing splitter "due to track damage". It's low enough that you could easily tear it up on aggressive curbing. Either way, both lower parts were meant to be replaced.

If you're going to track a lot, I probably would not worry about going OEM for either of those pieces, as they will get chewed up by debris during track use. The one plus of having the expensive M4 everyone copies is that exact replica GTS parts are available and are "cheap"!

I have a replica upper splitter from RW on order - once it arrives, I'll take some photos comparing it to my new OEM one sitting in the basement. Allegedly, you cannot tell the difference, but we'll see.
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      10-06-2020, 03:20 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
The post said missing splitter "due to track damage". It's low enough that you could easily tear it up on aggressive curbing. Either way, both lower parts were meant to be replaced.

If you're going to track a lot, I probably would not worry about going OEM for either of those pieces, as they will get chewed up by debris during track use. The one plus of having the expensive M4 everyone copies is that exact replica GTS parts are available and are "cheap"!

I have a replica upper splitter from RW on order - once it arrives, I'll take some photos comparing it to my new OEM one sitting in the basement. Allegedly, you cannot tell the difference, but we'll see.
The RW upper splitter, does it allow you to use the 'flat' part that IND sells? Can you use it to build a full replica GTS front end?
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      10-06-2020, 04:23 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Secret Chimp View Post
But it would be nice to still have a set of serviceable ccb's at the price. By your description, these ccb's are still ok for dd purposes. I track my cars multiple times per year so I will upgrade to some type of iron rotor set-up if I manage to get my hands on a GTS.


Here's info on the upper carbon splitter crack. (hopefully attached)
Yep, agreed. At asking the car should be mechanically sound, so if they're no good it's a strong negotiating point. Ditto splitter. And aftermarket costs aren't the reference points for negotiation, OE prices are.

Unless I'm missing something, can't really know ccb status based upon that report. Pictures of the wear indicators at all 4 corners would be helpful. They should be able to manage. Here's what you're looking for.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
Agreed, but interestingly, I have seen CCB rotors where the wear indicators looked pretty janky and the weights were significantly (170g) above the minimum. Most discs only have about 200g of wearable material.
M ccb discs are 100 g max loss. Details and bulletins linked here: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1115439

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I was going to buy this car in Q1 2022 but the owner listed it too early. I can't have the CS, the GTS, the E90 stroker and the E92... and then 2 street cars.
What?? are you some sort of ascetic?
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      10-06-2020, 06:57 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Chimp View Post
But it would be nice to still have a set of serviceable ccb's at the price. By your description, these ccb's are still ok for dd purposes. I track my cars multiple times per year so I will upgrade to some type of iron rotor set-up if I manage to get my hands on a GTS.


Here's info on the upper carbon splitter crack. (hopefully attached)
Yep, agreed. At asking the car should be mechanically sound, so if they're no good it's a strong negotiating point. Ditto splitter. And aftermarket costs aren't the reference points for negotiation, OE prices are.

Unless I'm missing something, can't really know ccb status based upon that report. Pictures of the wear indicators at all 4 corners would be helpful. They should be able to manage. Here's what you're looking for.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...29aa4565_b.jpg[/img]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
Agreed, but interestingly, I have seen CCB rotors where the wear indicators looked pretty janky and the weights were significantly (170g) above the minimum. Most discs only have about 200g of wearable material.
M ccb discs are 100 g max loss. Details and bulletins linked here: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1115439

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I was going to buy this car in Q1 2022 but the owner listed it too early. I can't have the CS, the GTS, the E90 stroker and the E92... and then 2 street cars.
What?? are you some sort of ascetic?
Another post from probably the noobiest GTS owner in the US re CCB

I'm attaching pictures of my two front rotors, I think this means the where indicators are good?

Also I know it's not the same as weighing the disks, but when I run my finger along the swept area versus the pristine surface next to the hub mount, there is absolutely no step off, I can't even tell I'm moving my finger from one part of the dish to the other except it's slightly less smooth.

I picked this car up about three weeks ago for 78k with 5200 miles.

I don't think it's ever been to the track judging from the condition of the original tires which were swapped out for super sport by the owner after he picked up a nail.

Water injection was nonfunctional the car is still under factory warranty so I had the diagnostic and replaced the valve block with the updated part at Cetera.

Made me nervous so I managed to get the factory warranty extended another three years through BMW.
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      10-06-2020, 07:15 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_bakken View Post
Another post from probably the noobiest GTS owner in the US re CCB

I'm attaching pictures of my two front rotors, I think this means the where indicators are good?
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
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      10-06-2020, 07:18 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_bakken View Post
Another post from probably the noobiest GTS owner in the US re CCB

I'm attaching pictures of my two front rotors, I think this means the where indicators are good?
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
Thanks appreciate the above!
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      10-06-2020, 08:43 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_bakken View Post

Also I know it's not the same as weighing the disks, but when I run my finger along the swept area versus the pristine surface next to the hub mount, there is absolutely no step off, I can't even tell I'm moving my finger from one part of the dish to the other except it's slightly less smooth.

I picked this car up about three weeks ago for 78k with 5200 miles.
.
Those rotors look brand new to me! Also, as I understand, ccb rotors don't wear down in the same way that iron rotors do. They don't typically get much thinner as they are consumed. Instead, the carbon within the carbon/ceramic matrix burns away. That's why they are weighed to determine if they need to be replaced. So, I don't think feeling the rotors for a wear lip will tell you much
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      10-06-2020, 09:05 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Chimp View Post
Those rotors look brand new to me! Also, as I understand, ccb rotors don't wear down in the same way that iron rotors do. They don't typically get much thinner as they are consumed. Instead, the carbon within the carbon/ceramic matrix burns away. That's why they are weighed to determine if they need to be replaced. So, I don't think feeling the rotors for a wear lip will tell you much
Yup, that's why they put those handy wear indicators. When they are like burnt off you know the car was well loved
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      10-06-2020, 09:30 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
Yup, this would be my quick and easy check on a GTS to know if it's been tracked. That titanium sure looks pretty when it's all rainbow colored. Just something that doesn't get photographed by used car salesmen.
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      10-06-2020, 11:42 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The RW upper splitter, does it allow you to use the 'flat' part that IND sells? Can you use it to build a full replica GTS front end?
Based on what I was told, it is a true GTS replica - so it has the 6 threaded holes for fitting the lower splitter.

Will find out for sure soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post

M ccb discs are 100 g max loss. Details and bulletins linked here: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1115439
That F10 bulletin is not correct for the F82 M4 GTS. I've weighed 8 brake rotors - 4 front and 4 rear (those on my car and the new replacement set I purchased). All of the fronts are 190g+ above min weight.

The F82 GTS TIS specifically notes around 200g can be lost: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...rakes/JJXY9MyS

"Depending on the driving profile, the brake disc loses up to approximately 200 g of its mass as a result of temperature and oxygen influences, mainly around the support. This material-specific loss of mass must be determined by weighing each individual, cleaned brake discs. The permissible minimum weight has been permanently indicated on the brake disc chamber."

For reference, I have a set of 4 brand new CCB rotors, and the front rotors weigh 199g and 204g more than their respective "Min Weight" numbers stamped on the disc hat. The front rotors on my car are relatively new and are 193g and 197g above minimum.

Last edited by 4play; 10-07-2020 at 12:03 AM..
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      10-07-2020, 07:00 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
That F10 bulletin is not correct for the F82 M4 GTS. I've weighed 8 brake rotors - 4 front and 4 rear (those on my car and the new replacement set I purchased). All of the fronts are 190g+ above min weight.

The F82 GTS TIS specifically notes around 200g can be lost: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...rakes/JJXY9MyS

"Depending on the driving profile, the brake disc loses up to approximately 200 g of its mass as a result of temperature and oxygen influences, mainly around the support. This material-specific loss of mass must be determined by weighing each individual, cleaned brake discs. The permissible minimum weight has been permanently indicated on the brake disc chamber."

For reference, I have a set of 4 brand new CCB rotors, and the front rotors weigh 199g and 204g more than their respective "Min Weight" numbers stamped on the disc hat. The front rotors on my car are relatively new and are 193g and 197g above minimum.
Great info, thanks. I'll get around to weighing mine at some point for better wear indicator condition vs. weight understanding
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      10-07-2020, 08:32 AM   #107
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Yup, this would be my quick and easy check on a GTS to know if it's been tracked. That titanium sure looks pretty when it's all rainbow colored. Just something that doesn't get photographed by used car salesmen.
And if you find a pristine muffler, next point of inspection is also at the back end. Seldom or unused water system...

GTS is a confusing blend of legit, durable performance components intended for hard use and others that can't hang.

If buying for track purposes, do think well-modified and used versions with maintenance history make a lot of sense. Can see how certain mods (brakes, plates) become expectations in the used market over time, along the lines of 997 GT3 aftermarket upgrades that are the norm.

The one at Toy Barn dropped to 78.7.
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      10-07-2020, 11:42 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_bakken View Post
Another post from probably the noobiest GTS owner in the US re CCB

I'm attaching pictures of my two front rotors, I think this means the where indicators are good?
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
Yup, this would be my quick and easy check on a GTS to know if it's been tracked. That titanium sure looks pretty when it's all rainbow colored. Just something that doesn't get photographed by used car salesmen.
Thanks all. Muffler has just a hint of rose color on part of it, tips and everything else are are uniformly Ti gray. Hopefully I'll be changing that, signing up for a track day in mid December at COTA.
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      10-07-2020, 02:14 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_bakken View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_bakken View Post
Another post from probably the noobiest GTS owner in the US re CCB

I'm attaching pictures of my two front rotors, I think this means the where indicators are good?
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
I'm sorry, those look trashed, but I'll trade you for mine straight up.

... they look all good.

Have a look at the pads as well. Should be little to no wear.

And if they're tracked with enthusiasm, can also tell you the black paint on the pad backing plate (opposite the pad) flakes and chips off.

Another telltale sign of track activity - muffler and tips. Are they discolored by heat? If not, no track, or tracked by a wimp so no worries.

Hope you get the water sorted!
Yup, this would be my quick and easy check on a GTS to know if it's been tracked. That titanium sure looks pretty when it's all rainbow colored. Just something that doesn't get photographed by used car salesmen.
Thanks all. Muffler has just a hint of rose color on part of it, tips and everything else are are uniformly Ti gray. Hopefully I'll be changing that, signing up for a track day in mid December at COTA.
Virgin GTS lol. Never even arrived at 1st base
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      10-08-2020, 01:26 PM   #110
horsepower_and_hounds
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Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA

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What he said buy the damn thing
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