GTS twins: the GTMore journey

[FrankMstein]

Also do those alcons have TI or SS pistons? Also look like they have removeable pad abutments.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Also do those alcons have TI or SS pistons? Also look like they have removeable pad abutments.

SS as far as I'm concerned

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

So do you own the GTMore car or just copying it? Interested to know if you are doing any brake cooling? I have TI shims on the way now. Still keeping CCB Will be doing the oil spacer. I can't understand why BW has two different oil spacer kits. One $100 more but is the same. One back ordered. Strange. I have gotten deals off their site because they fail to keep it up to date. Don't understand why you can't just get studs and spacer, why does one need an new sensor, some interference? Why didn't you go with the GT4 manual conversion, $200 more + ISTA coding? You would think they would tell you if it had any extra capacity or baffles or ???

The GTMore testbed car is a BW vehicle. My brother and I are building two GTMores based on M4 GTS cars.

We have no brake cooling. To drive the car on the street with ducting is a huge pain. Once we do the GTMore suspension setup which includes steering limiters then we may look into it again.
We did ample testing and the calipers/rotors do not reach temps out of range no matter how you beat on the car or who is driving it with zero cooling, so we are not in a hurry to add cooling. With the alcon system, you simply cannot overheat them on the track. Cooling will aid in pad wear only so it's not high on the list.
Note that these statements don't apply to most BBKs. The Alcon has a 36mm 380mm front rotor that is a beast and is a huge heatsink.

The CCBs work very well when paired with Giro rotors. So far our favorite pad compound is the GP40/20 combo, much better feel than RSL29s.

There are two different oil sensor setups, one for the CS/GTS and one for the ZCP/Civic M3s. The first only requires a spacer change and the other requires a sensor+spacer/stud change. Within the ZCP/Civic setup, one kit uses a OEM sensor and the other uses an aftermarket sensor, that is the one that's out of stock.
I'm not sure I understand your question about GT4. Are you asking why I didn't change to a dip stick like the GT4s? If so, I like the electronic measuring system and am not a fan of dipsticks, it seems like everyone has 'their' way to measure it and there's too much subjectivity. The M4 GT4 doesn't, as far as I know, have a different pan etc

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The GTMore testbed car is a BW vehicle. My brother and I are building two GTMores based on M4 GTS cars.

We have no brake cooling. To drive the car on the street with ducting is a huge pain. Once we do the GTMore suspension setup which includes steering limiters then we may look into it again.
We did ample testing and the calipers/rotors do not reach temps out of range no matter how you beat on the car or who is driving it with zero cooling, so we are not in a hurry to add cooling. With the alcon system, you simply cannot overheat them on the track. Cooling will aid in pad wear only so it's not high on the list.

The CCBs work very well when paired with Giro rotors. So far our favorite pad compound is the GP40/20 combo, much better feel than RSL29s.

There are two different oil sensor setups, one for the CS/GTS and one for the ZCP/Civic M3s. The first only requires a spacer change and the other requires a sensor+spacer/stud change.
I'm not sure I understand your question about GT4. Are you asking why I didn't change to a dip stick like the GT4s? If so, I like the electronic measuring system and am not a fan of dipsticks, it seems like everyone has 'their' way to measure it and there's too much subjectivity. The M4 GT4 doesn't, as far as I know, have a different pan etc

Thanks, Yes, dipstick = manual. Man I HATE having to run the car to check the level! Stupid as the HVAC controls not having a dual setting, IMO.

[GasBurnlife(landapanda)]

Looks like Xmas comes early for The Twins. Can't wait to see them in person! Excited for the build and looking forward to more pics and reactions.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by Sh4d0w

That's interesting...With all the track time I've put on the GTS (peak MPH is 155), I haven't noticed a crack starting to develop...Where did you start to see the signs?

Also when I'm out there in September, I'm worried I might get jealous with those Alcon's... Hanging out with Lienrocs and his AP brakes and E88's have been bad enough

Those alcons are sick! Your car is making me jealous at this point!

[adc]

Do the Alcons have an anti rattle clip option?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by adc

Do the Alcons have an anti rattle clip option?

They do not.

So far I've had 3 BBKs, PFC, AP and Alcon. The only ones that had an antirattle option were the APs and they were if anything louder than the others. And remember you aren't supposed to run on track with the antirattle, so there's yet another thing to prep in the morning!

None of the track BBKs are designed to use on the street. I haven't had issues in years of driving them on the street, but your experience may vary

[MaX PL]

The Alcons come with some sort of anti rattle hardware for the rotors, or thats what one of the reps at Bimmerworld told me the hardware was for at least, and I think the product description also mentions this. When purchasing, however, another rep told there are no anti rattle clips.

I had occasional rattle on mine the first few months but its gone away. All I ever hear now is pad squeal.
One trick when I did have rattle was to do a quick brake pedal application. I think that brought the pads closer to the rotor giving them less room to rattle. That's what I thought was happening anyway.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

The Alcons come with some sort of anti rattle hardware for the rotors, or thats what one of the reps at Bimmerworld told me the hardware was for at least, and I think the product description also mentions this. When purchasing, however, another rep told there are no anti rattle clips.

I had occasional rattle on mine the first few months but its gone away. All I ever hear now is pad squeal.
One trick when I did have rattle was to do a quick brake pedal application. I think that brought the pads closer to the rotor giving them less room to rattle. That's what I thought was happening anyway.

Oh yeah, one thing is antirattle clips on the rotors and another is on the pads.
Antirattle clips on the rotor/hat interface are an absolute must and all kits have them. It's the ones on the pads I referenced earlier

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

And remember you aren't supposed to run on track with the antirattle, so there's yet another thing to prep in the morning!

Essex says it's totally fine to run the anti-rattle/pad tension clips on track. I asked them about this last year.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Essex says it's totally fine to run the anti-rattle/pad tension clips on track. I asked them about this last year.

When i complained to Essex about the crazy taper wear they said they should be removed for best performance

[sly1types]

[QUOTE=D_SheerDrivingPleasure;28933518]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

We're getting questions on the complexity of the install of the oil capacity upgrade kit from BimmerWorld.

The main objective of this mod is to increase the lateral acceleration limits of the oil system.
Stock 6.5L = 1.3g
CS/GTS 7.0L = 1.4g
BimmerWorld mod 7.3L = 1.46g


It's very simple to do in any oil change.

The kit consists of a spacer, a O-ring and a new sensor

Presteps:
Drain the oil as the oil sensor is at the bottom of the oil pan
Remove the aluminum stiffening plate at the bottom of the engine bay

This is what the sensor looks like once you have access to it






Disconnect the sensor




Use a 10mm socket to unscrew the 3 [...]

For those with civic or ZCP models, you will need to install the extended studs that come with the BimmerWorld kit, otherwise the nuts will not have sufficient threads to grab with the spacer installed. The ZCP does not use a spacer.

The double nut method should be used to remove the OEM studs. These nuts are tricky to snug together because of their size. My attempt at removing the OEM studs this way failed miserably (do not attempted car maintenance on a 90 degree day while recovering from covid).

I plan to tackle this next oil change. For now I'll need to limit myself to < 1.4 g.

So if we are supposed to use 7.3L or 7.71 quarts, what happens if we just put in 8 quarts or 7.5L. Does the car give an error? Does it foam the oil?

I'm going to be installing my sensor kit this week. I am excited as it will give me some peace of mind since i run takeoff DHs.

I know stock was 6.5L or 6.8 quarts, but i would always do 7 quarts. I also always change my Redline 5w40 every track weekend (3days), usually right before the next one.

[SYT_Shadow]

[QUOTE=sly1types;29217837]

Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure

So if we are supposed to use 7.3L or 7.71 quarts, what happens if we just put in 8 quarts or 7.5L. Does the car give an error? Does it foam the oil?

I'm going to be installing my sensor kit this week. I am excited as it will give me some peace of mind since i run takeoff DHs.

I know stock was 6.5L or 6.8 quarts, but i would always do 7 quarts. I also always change my Redline 5w40 every track weekend (3days), usually right before the next one.

Redline lasts 10+ days, so you could do every three weekends. But up to you.

Here's the logic we use
OEM M4 GT4 takes 8.4L
OEM M4 GT4 has no oil pan changes to allow it to take more oil. It does have a dipstick to measure the level correctly.
BW mod shows 'max' at 7.3L
--> We fill to 7.3L so the oil shows it's full, then add a full quart. That gets us close to the OEM M4 GT4.
--> If after tracking a few days the computer says the oil is full, that means it consumed one quart, so another full quart goes in. Said differently, the 'full' setting after the BW mod serves as a low engine oil warning for us.

[sly1types]

[QUOTE=SYT_Shadow;29221205]

Originally Posted by sly1types

Redline lasts 10+ days, so you could do every three weekends. But up to you.

Here's the logic we use
OEM M4 GT4 takes 8.4L
OEM M4 GT4 has no oil pan changes to allow it to take more oil. It does have a dipstick to measure the level correctly.
BW mod shows 'max' at 7.3L
--> We fill to 7.3L so the oil shows it's full, then add a full quart. That gets us close to the OEM M4 GT4.
--> If after tracking a few days the computer says the oil is full, that means it consumed one quart, so another full quart goes in. Said differently, the 'full' setting after the BW mod serves as a low engine oil warning for us.

Thanks for the info. I think I will start doing 8quarts.

I was just worried about foaming.

I just over change it as I already went through a set of rod bearings, but I think most of it was from the low HTHS of liquiMolly and changing every 6 days.

Now I only run redline5w40 every 3days as it has one of the highest HTHS ratings.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

and if that wasn't enough... another giant box arrived! Slon Workshop GTS aero for both cars!
Functionally it is similar to the GTS aero, but the stock parts crack due to downforce and these won't. Although the stock parts are very expensive, they have a T joint that holds a lot of force and simply cracks, so this part fixes that.
The finish is polished raw carbon fiber, not lacquered, so it doesn't have lots of gloss but it is more resilient to impacts. We will not be wrapping these parts.

Some people asked about the OEM GTS aero cracks, here are some pics






This is what the other side looks like









The OEM design has a T connection between the upper and lower foils. The Slonik piece, as expected, improves on the OEM design

Two foils joined by flat areas vs a T

[JustAnothaM4]

Wow! That Slon GTS splitter looks amazing!

[melanthius]

Thread is very inspiring and informative!! Thank you as usual!

Some questions about oil and fuel starvation

For oil starvation, are you just getting an oil pressure light that comes on during turns? Or something worse? How do you know?


For fuel starvation, other than loss of power how bad is this? And I read correctly that there's no fix for this yet?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by melanthius

Thread is very inspiring and informative!! Thank you as usual!

Some questions about oil and fuel starvation

For oil starvation, are you just getting an oil pressure light that comes on during turns? Or something worse? How do you know?


For fuel starvation, other than loss of power how bad is this? And I read correctly that there's no fix for this yet?

thanks!

No oil pressure lights or anything of the sort. The first time the red oil light turns on in a regular car you're probably out an engine.
The oil system in M cars is great, but it was slightly downgraded from the E9X to the F8X, going from 1.4g to 1.3g. Then BMW upped it again for the GTS and later for the CS back to 1.4g.
6.5L --> 1.3g civic & ZCP M
7L--> 1.4g GTS & CS
7.3L--> 1.46g what this kit reads 'full' at
8.3L--> 1.66g if you add another liter once the measuring system says it's full


With this kit we can get a regular M and take it beyond the oiling capabilities of the GTS for almost no cost and retaining the electronic measuring system.


Fuel starvation: you know if it happens, as it cuts power completely and sometimes will turn the car off. It is correlated to pace/grip and doesn't happen unless you're under half a tank regardless of pace.
Once you're fast enough to trigger fuel starvation your only option is to start each session with a full tank and all that extra weight. Like the oiling system, this is another area where the F8X regressed vs the E9X.
This kit will be coming out soon.

[FrankMstein]

[QUOTE=sly1types;29221509]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Thanks for the info. I think I will start doing 8quarts.

I was just worried about foaming.

I just over change it as I already went through a set of rod bearings, but I think most of it was from the low HTHS of liquiMolly and changing every 6 days.

Now I only run redline5w40 every 3days as it has one of the highest HTHS ratings.

Liqui mud = bad
Redline = $/good

[melanthius]

Thanks, I understood the benefits of adding more oil, but was curious what the symptoms or experience is like when you exceed the limits of the G forces on a certain amount of oil.

I used to have a 350z back in the day. It would consume some oil and when the level got lower, the oil light would come on during heavy braking. It didn't kill the engine but that let me know it was time to add some or do an oil change.

It's also crazy to me that you can fit so much more oil in there without messing something up and without upgrading oil pan lol

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by melanthius

Thanks, I understood the benefits of adding more oil, but was curious what the symptoms or experience is like when you exceed the limits of the G forces on a certain amount of oil.

I used to have a 350z back in the day. It would consume some oil and when the level got lower, the oil light would come on during heavy braking. It didn't kill the engine but that let me know it was time to add some or do an oil change.

It's also crazy to me that you can fit so much more oil in there without messing something up and without upgrading oil pan lol

It is a bit crazy. But the GT4 runs 8.4L with the exact same oil pan/etc

And it finally validates why Steve Dinan repeatedly said we had to run 1L extra on the stroker engine. Sometimes things sound crazy until we finally come full circle