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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 81 31.89%
Trump Trump-umphant. 87 34.25%
Inclusive 18 7.09%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 74 29.13%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 10 3.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 254. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-09-2019, 01:18 PM   #4005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Yea about that, the states have been financially strap trying to maintaine the interstate highway with very little aid from the fed on the upkeep for a project they created.
You’re right the interstate idea was terrible and it should never have been built. Stupid government!
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      12-09-2019, 01:19 PM   #4006
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Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Why shouldn't the federal government be involved in any infrastructure project? We wouldn't have a interstate highway system if everything were left up to the states. In my opinion, a cohesive infrastructure makes more sense than a fractured one.
Highway system? Perhaps - because that benefits 100% of the country. Intrastate infrastructure projects? Nope - that belongs to the states.

When you get right down to it, though, it is probably likely that the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944 and the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 are unconstitutional as well. Of course, there really isn't much chance standing would ever be granted to fight it.

Remember - it doesn't make a difference if something "makes sense" to someone - it only matters if the constitution allows it. 'Make sense' is subjective. It's only a matter of time before someone determines that it makes sense to do something that absolutely violates your rights to see how bad this precedent is.

We are not subjects - we are independent states that have 'agreed' to work together as one country.
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      12-09-2019, 01:20 PM   #4007
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
You’re right the interstate idea was terrible and it should never have been built. Stupid government!
The states would have made there own, NJ had route 3 which latter was branded 444 which became the parkway way before the fed got involve, and the fed generally just expanded on roads the states already made.
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      12-09-2019, 01:20 PM   #4008
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Easy - the federal government should provide for the common defense of the country and some other basic projects that affect 100% of the locations in the country. Other than that, the federal government should stay out. I could seriously eliminate nearly 2/3 of the entire federal government tomorrow. Just a few that have no business being a department or agency:

Department of Agriculture
Department of Commerce
Department of Education
Department of Energy
Department of Health and Human Services
Department of Housing and Urban Development
Department of the Interior
Department of Justice
Department of Labor
Department of Transportation


Ones I am okay with:

Department of the Treasury
Department of Veterans Affairs
Department of State
Department of Defense
Department of Homeland Security

I completely disagree. Each absolutely have a need of existing on a federal level, however I am sure some could be scaled down. Each of these departments has an affect on every state, thereby 100% of the country as you mentioned. Having so many major programs and infrastructure left up to each individual state leaves a very fractured system for the country as a whole.

It seems (and maybe I am reaching here) that is absolutely what some people want, having each state completely independent other than national defense which would allow some states to become significantly stronger than others. If that is what the population really wants, why bother having "united states" under the banner of one nation, and instead have independent "nation states" with a military alliance similar to that of NATO?
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      12-09-2019, 01:20 PM   #4009
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
You’re right the interstate idea was terrible and it should never have been built. Stupid government!
I think it is well established that the interstate system was a net positive, but certainly had both advantages and drawbacks for millions of Americans.
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      12-09-2019, 01:21 PM   #4010
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Hahahahahahahaha. IG report out.

You guys are so quiet about it.
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      12-09-2019, 01:22 PM   #4011
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I think it is well established that the interstate system was a net positive, but certainly had both advantages and drawbacks for millions of Americans.
C’mon are we really going to debate if it was an overwhelmingly good thing or not?
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      12-09-2019, 01:23 PM   #4012
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Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
Hahahahahahahaha. IG report out.

You guys are so quiet about it.
They are quiet about it because what does it matter? We all knew what it was going to say just like we all knew what was going to come out of the Trump impeachment.

Nothing.

Seriously - do you really think any heads are going to roll with respect to the FISA violations? Really?

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      12-09-2019, 01:27 PM   #4013
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C’mon are we really going to debate if it was an overwhelmingly good thing or not?
Minn - you and I typically can have honest debates here - I am not sure why you are digging your heels in on this one. Please see bullet points below:

1) I stated in my post that it certainly had a net benefit.

2) Millions of citizens were also negatively impacted though. Many small businesses went bankrupt, tens of thousands had the fed govt seize their property, and many other issues arose. It is an overall win for the country as a whole, but their are many who would rightfully disagree, since it negatively impacted them.

3) Just because something the government does ends up positive, doesn't make it right. A perfect example would be the invasion of Iraq. Was it a win that Hussein was eliminated? You bet! Was the US Military allowed by the constitution to invade Iraq and instigate a war without congressional approval? Nope. There are many more examples.
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      12-09-2019, 01:30 PM   #4014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
They are quiet about it because what does it matter? We all knew what it was going to say just like we all knew what was going to come out of the Trump impeachment.

Nothing.

Seriously - do you really think any heads are going to roll with respect to the FISA violations? Really?

There are quite a few on here who were singing a different tune. But yes, you are 100% correct.

The only thing that is going to come out of impeachment is that he was impeached. The way the senate votes will be used against them in their respective elections next year. For some states it will not matter either way but for others it will.

So have the bailouts for farmers exceeded the one for the automakers yet?
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      12-09-2019, 01:32 PM   #4015
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Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I completely disagree. Each absolutely have a need of existing on a federal level, however I am sure some could be scaled down. Each of these departments has an affect on every state, thereby 100% of the country as you mentioned. Having so many major programs and infrastructure left up to each individual state leaves a very fractured system for the country as a whole.

It seems (and maybe I am reaching here) that is absolutely what some people want, having each state completely independent other than national defense which would allow some states to become significantly stronger than others. If that is what the population really wants, why bother having "united states" under the banner of one nation, and instead have independent "nation states" with a military alliance similar to that of NATO?
Disagree all you want - I don't particularly care. Bottom line is that these bloated departments are vast wastelands of inefficiency and have no basis in constitutional doctrine. Go ahead - show me specifically where the constitution grants the Federal Government the right to dictate how a family in rural Kansas gets to educate their child. I'll wait.

The constitution doesn't really care 'what the population really wants' - if they really wanted it - they would have amended the constitution.

This country doesn't get to be something because you feel it should be. It is what it is because the founding fathers determined it to be as such. We have a document that can be amended should the will of the people deem it need to be changed. You don't get to just randomly do stuff because it feels good.

The fact that we let the government do this time and time again will be our ultimate demise. I mean this with respect to increasing the size and scope of government, to warrant-less wiretaps and seizures without due process to invasion of countries without express permission from congress. Both sides of the isle are terrible at this.
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      12-09-2019, 01:35 PM   #4016
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Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
There are quite a few on here who were singing a different tune. But yes, you are 100% correct.

The only thing that is going to come out of impeachment is that he was impeached. The way the senate votes will be used against them in their respective elections next year. For some states it will not matter either way but for others it will.

So have the bailouts for farmers exceeded the one for the automakers yet?
1) Yup - anyone who thought this would turn out different is a fool.

2) The statement about how the votes will be used in the election applies to congress as well. History shows that anytime a president is impeached and survives, the other party takes a beating.

3) Who cares regarding which subsidy is larger - ag or auto. Neither should have a subsidy of anything over $1. Why is the federal government giving money that they took from me in the form of taxes to any private business? This is crony capitalism at it's worst.
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      12-09-2019, 01:42 PM   #4017
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Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
So have the bailouts for farmers exceeded the one for the automakers yet?
Yes, they are already more than double the automaker bailout (over $28 billion). FWIW, the government made nearly $100 billion in profits on the bank bailouts that so many complained about endlessly.
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      12-09-2019, 01:43 PM   #4018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
There are quite a few on here who were singing a different tune. But yes, you are 100% correct.

The only thing that is going to come out of impeachment is that he was impeached. The way the senate votes will be used against them in their respective elections next year. For some states it will not matter either way but for others it will.

So have the bailouts for farmers exceeded the one for the automakers yet?
Yes, by a substantial margin.
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      12-09-2019, 01:47 PM   #4019
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John Durham on the Horowitz IG report-

“Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the IG that we do not agree with some of the reports conclusions as to the predication and how the FBI case was opened

Durham’s scope extends far beyond the circle of Horowitz’s scope and has access to much more data, interviewing, intel then the IG had available. This thing is far from over. Besides, there are still incriminating points against the FBI in the Horowitz limited report. Durham’s will bring all the evidence to light and his quote clearly lets us know the the IG report is not 100% accurate nor is it the end all report. Stand by
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      12-09-2019, 01:55 PM   #4020
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We shall see.
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      12-09-2019, 02:06 PM   #4021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
1) Yup - anyone who thought this would turn out different is a fool.

2) The statement about how the votes will be used in the election applies to congress as well. History shows that anytime a president is impeached and survives, the other party takes a beating.

3) Who cares regarding which subsidy is larger - ag or auto. Neither should have a subsidy of anything over $1. Why is the federal government giving money that they took from me in the form of taxes to any private business? This is crony capitalism at it's worst.
2. I am not sure historical precedent applies to things related to Trump. But yes, it will be used in house and senate races. I do not see these favoring Trump for the most part. A few of the house seats might swing back but likely not enough to change things as it is. The senate is likely to change.

3. The farm subsidy is the direct action of Trump. China is now buying those products from our neighbors to the south and that is not likely to change.
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      12-09-2019, 02:16 PM   #4022
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
3) Who cares regarding which subsidy is larger - ag or auto. Neither should have a subsidy of anything over $1. Why is the federal government giving money that they took from me in the form of taxes to any private business? This is crony capitalism at it's worst.
US automakers support something like 8 million jobs. You can't just let 8 million jobs disappear.
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      12-09-2019, 02:19 PM   #4023
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Disagree all you want - I don't particularly care. Bottom line is that these bloated departments are vast wastelands of inefficiency and have no basis in constitutional doctrine. Go ahead - show me specifically where the constitution grants the Federal Government the right to dictate how a family in rural Kansas gets to educate their child. I'll wait.

The constitution doesn't really care 'what the population really wants' - if they really wanted it - they would have amended the constitution.

This country doesn't get to be something because you feel it should be. It is what it is because the founding fathers determined it to be as such. We have a document that can be amended should the will of the people deem it need to be changed. You don't get to just randomly do stuff because it feels good.

I agree, there is definitely bloat and inefficiency that needs to be sorted out. Of course there is no constitutional doctrine for these departments, because how would the founders have anticipated the exact needs of the country and government in the future? In addition to creating amendments, my understanding is that Congress was granted legislative powers to delegate authority, which is how said departments came to be. Is that not how our modern government functions? That said, I don't see how these departments and agencies are unconstitutional.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
The fact that we let the government do this time and time again will be our ultimate demise. I mean this with respect to increasing the size and scope of government, to warrant-less wiretaps and seizures without due process to invasion of countries without express permission from congress. Both sides of the isle are terrible at this.

I don't disagree with you there.
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      12-09-2019, 02:21 PM   #4024
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There are limited results for impeachment and any evidence for "blowback" against the other party. In the case of Clinton which was most recent, it seems that the next President elected after Clinton was Bush(Republican), even though it was highly contested.The claim and warcry was for "family values" and Bush was eventually elected.
Nixon resigned, was pardoned by Ford who then lost to Jimmy Carter (Democrat)in the next election.
Andrew Johnson was a Democrat who ran with Lincoln on the National Union ticket, and he was succeeded by U.S. Grant after Johnson's impeachment, a Republican.

So, it appears that although the evidence is limited, the people generally vote for the other party-the one not in disgrace which in the case with Trump, would be a Democrat.
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      12-09-2019, 02:22 PM   #4025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
They are quiet about it because what does it matter? We all knew what it was going to say just like we all knew what was going to come out of the Trump impeachment.

Nothing.

Seriously - do you really think any heads are going to roll with respect to the FISA violations? Really?

Gonzo does, but he sees a Dem jaywalk and think they will go to prison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Minn - you and I typically can have honest debates here - I am not sure why you are digging your heels in on this one. Please see bullet points below:

1) I stated in my post that it certainly had a net benefit.

2) Millions of citizens were also negatively impacted though. Many small businesses went bankrupt, tens of thousands had the fed govt seize their property, and many other issues arose. It is an overall win for the country as a whole, but their are many who would rightfully disagree, since it negatively impacted them.

3) Just because something the government does ends up positive, doesn't make it right. A perfect example would be the invasion of Iraq. Was it a win that Hussein was eliminated? You bet! Was the US Military allowed by the constitution to invade Iraq and instigate a war without congressional approval? Nope. There are many more examples.
And many other businesses sprouted up growing the economy much more than it would of if it hadn't been built.

Honestly, with your military background etc, I'm just surprised by your reaction knowing the need for it if the time arises.

I guess I don't see any parallels between the US constructing the Interstate system and a very badly thought out (illegal?) invasion of another country.

Some people think almost everything government does is bad and some don't. I think it is as simple as that.

Last edited by minn19; 12-09-2019 at 02:39 PM..
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      12-09-2019, 02:29 PM   #4026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
The states would have made there own, NJ had route 3 which latter was branded 444 which became the parkway way before the fed got involve, and the fed generally just expanded on roads the states already made.
I still can't believe we are talking about this, but hey go internet! There is no way the states on their own would of built as robust as a system or as efficiently etc. Some would've chose not to or done it differently here and there and it wouldn't of been nearly as consistent as a transportation/commerce system as we have today.

Yes, some people got screwed as always happens in change. But, the economic growth that came from it and the new communities that sprouted up along the routes is tremendously positive for the country.
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