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      07-20-2013, 08:42 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
That's it. Based on that official info, the M4 has already lost against the GT-R (present, past and future). To keep them in the battle AWD was an absolute must to put that power down the wheels. Trying to make up by reducing weight is a lost battle in a consumer car because they would have to cut by factor of two and the 50-50 weight distribution is no match against a car with AWD and stability control on all 4 wheels. GAME OVER. This car will be an efficient, fast souped up 335i but no contender among the greats.
This is way off. First the m3 is not a gtr competitor. Second I think bmw would have lost a ton more people with going awd than they would have gained.

You can't compare a gtr with WAY more power to put to the classic m3 which will have enough power but certainly not enough to necessitate awd. If it was 3500 pounds and had 450 plus foot pounds than maybe but with its technology, improved grip and rwd, it will do just fine
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      07-20-2013, 09:33 PM   #112
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FN is asked a specific question if the M4 will be lighter than the 435i.

He answered "Absolutely" and as far as I know every single item he lists is a differentiator to the 435i. Why would he omit to mention some of them just because some are in the E90 M3? He wasn't asked what is new or what differs to the E90 M3. I see no issue with his answer, on contrariry it is extremely exciting. Ligth weight crash zones, use of magnesium, CF trunk. To me this signals that they have been serious about weight.

The high rpm parts in the powertrain intrigues me since that signals that there are lighter materials than used in the N55. I wonder where and what.

I also disagree with the notion that the M3 is all about maximizing profit for this specific car. The M3 is an icon and a halo car for BMW. It's more about securing and strenghtening their brand and thereby reap longterm benefits and profit across the entire BMW lineup. I.e I think BMW is willing to go further to make this the car as they want it even if it means to eat some of the max profit per sold M3 unit.

All in all reading this interview made me very, very happy. I'm now truly excited about this car. BMW and M as we know it seems to be back, at least for the M3.

Last edited by solstice; 07-20-2013 at 10:28 PM..
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      07-20-2013, 10:24 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
May the F10 M5 quietly vanish in history.
The M5 is a true M car, no matter what people say. Before purchasing, I tried many different cars out. P car, MB, Audi, Jag, and etc. The M5 stood out as the crazy lunatic 4 door family car, and a comfy cruiser all at a touch of a button.
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      07-20-2013, 10:28 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by alexey21 View Post
The M5 is a true M car, no matter what people say. Before purchasing, I tried many different cars out. P car, MB, Audi, Jag, and etc. The M5 stood out as the crazy lunatic 4 door family car, and a comfy cruiser all at a touch of a button.
Sorry, I realized it was an insensitive unneccessary comment. I'll remove it. If you do the same with your quote it should be gone.
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      07-20-2013, 11:24 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The high rpm parts in the powertrain intrigues me since that signals that there are lighter materials than used in the N55. I wonder where and what.
Much more likely are lighter designs rather than lighter materials at least in the engine itself. A couple of specifics will likely be hollow camshafts and "trapezium shaped" connecting rods, just like the current S65 V8 . I'd also bet on composite drive shafts (since they've now been completely vetted on low end cars and SUVs like the Mitsubishi Montero...). The good thing is that they can save about 10-15 lb in the M4. Composite axles could be another possibility, saving about another 10-15 lb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I also disagree with the notion that the M3 is all about maximizing profit for this specific car. The M3 is an icon and a halo car for BMW. It's more about securing and strenghtening their brand and thereby reap longterm benefits and profit across the entire BMW lineup. I.e I think BMW is willing to go further to make this the car as they want it even if it means to eat some of the max profit per sold M3 unit.
Sure there is more room for higher cost in the M3/M4 but it's well made up for with higher price. That being said, I would be willing to be that BMW made more profit per M3 than per non M 3er and they will continue to do so with the next generation 3 and 4 series. I have argued in the past that automobile companies sometimes do offer "halo cars" are these can come with significantly reduced profit margins just to make a point, capture market, drive sales of lower end cars, etc. I think the Nissan GT-R is a good example of this. The M4 simply won't be. It's profit margin WILL be higher than the E92 M3.

One major reason for this is (as you've pointed out) engine costs will be dramatically reduced and this decision for an I6 with turbo and sits at the center of my largest frustration with BMW Ms direction. Ferrari is a brand more about design, excellence, engineering, racing heritage and emotion as opposed to BMW. That being said even Ferrari closely manage costs and save where they can. They just don't (and obviously don't have to) penny pinch as bad as BMW. I know BMW to Ferrari is really apples to oranges but you've got a bit of rose colored glasses on in your statement just above.

In the end the car will likely lead its class, but it won't do so by any tremendous margins (just like this time around); not in speed, not in handling, strip times or lap times. Why? It all comes down to basic economics. I think you have a somewhat naive view of this. If BMW was run by Motorsport enthusiasts and engineers the M cars would be substantially more filled with tech and performance. Marketing knows that as long as they win the magazines comparisons, that will drive sales. It's sort of a self evident truth but the car will only be as good as it needs to, because any better will simply be too expensive.

For instance from 1998 to 2007 BMW roughly doubled the number of vehicles they sold whereas their net income went up nearly 600%. That trend is continuing. How and why - one major factor is LESS EXPENSE PUT INTO THEIR CARS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
All in all reading this interview made me very, very happy. I'm now truly excited about this car. BMW and M as we know it seems to be back, at least for the M3.
I glad you are excited. Don't let my "glass half empty" get you down too much...
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      07-21-2013, 12:26 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
Nice! This car is going to be nuts. That upcoming lexus f coupe thing will be a still born.
Nobody said anything about the Lexus, which apparently is on your mind, or has you worried enough to mention it. The IS-F coupe is being worked on, what they up their sleeve is anybody's guess...but, chances are it won't disappoint...and you should be glad that Lexus will offer it. Competition improves the breed.
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      07-21-2013, 12:29 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
This is way off. First the m3 is not a gtr competitor. Second I think bmw would have lost a ton more people with going awd than they would have gained.

You can't compare a gtr with WAY more power to put to the classic m3 which will have enough power but certainly not enough to necessitate awd. If it was 3500 pounds and had 450 plus foot pounds than maybe but with its technology, improved grip and rwd, it will do just fine
Amen, dude doesn't realize that the GT-R, is a supercar competitor/slayer. The M3 (e9x, e8X as this is about them) isn't...many people crossshop and compare the Carrera 2 to this...it is not in the same league as the GT-R, as someone said apples to oranges.
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      07-21-2013, 12:36 AM   #118
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"I'm glad you are excited. Don't let my "glass half empty" get you down too much..."

No worries, your view doesn't effect me at all since I don't share it. I do enjoy the discussion though as long as it kept on a civil level. I respect your knowledge even if I don't share your guesses on how BMW operate or what they can or will do.
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      07-21-2013, 02:52 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I say more likely a simple mistake/brain fart rather than blaming the journalist.



Nothing wrong with repeating what already works. It just sounds to me to be a of regurgitation of the past and yes, resting on ones laurels. I could be reading too much into it but the norm in such discussions is to speak with a large to entire focus on the new things and he clearly isn't.

I'm not dismissing the car, not dismissing their weight savings efforts. I'd virtually guarantee the car will be lighter than the E92 M3 but likley won't be lighter than the 435i (truly apples to apples) and almost for sure nor lighter than 3300 curb. I've also stated many times that I'd also be willing to be that the car will continue its absolute class dominating position.
Let's not forget the sedan is now getting the CF roof as a first.
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      07-21-2013, 07:34 AM   #120
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Very interesting statement from Dr.Nitschke ... if you read between the lines:
Quote:
MT: Tell me about light weight. Is the new M4 lighter than a 435i?

FN: Absolutely. We will use lightweight parts in the places where it matters, at the ends of the carand high up, and in high-rpm parts of the powertrain. A carbon fiber roof, of course, and aluminum and magnesium and carbon fiber in the crash zones. An aluminum hood, and a new carbon fiber trunk lid.
... that could have consequences on the choosen engíne layout(!) ... has Dr.Nitschke told us between the line the answer on the great engine question!?
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      07-21-2013, 08:03 AM   #121
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Important conversation .
Combination high rev and torque !
Dynamic, Active Begeisterung!!!
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      07-21-2013, 09:04 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmtl_135i View Post
Not to hijack the thread but there is also something very interesting in this interview:

MT: What about below the M3 and M4?
FN: There’s no decision yet. But I absolutely want to develop a successor model to the 1 Series M Coupe. I have all the components I need – the powertrain, chassis. In the near future you will know. We can’t call it the M1, because that number is for the special mid-engined car, but there is M2, isn’t there?

MT: What about a four-cylinder M car?
FN: Not in the near future. But it’s possible. Our engines are modular.


So he kind of confirms the M2, and he seems to confirm that it won't be a 4 cylinders.
.
.
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.
.
M2! M2! M2!
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      07-21-2013, 10:15 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuggerat89 View Post
Jason, where did bimmerpost find the F82 pictures for this article on the front page? Are there more?
We haven't yet posted the full set, but will do so soon.
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      07-21-2013, 10:25 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
We haven't yet posted the full set, but will do so soon.
Nice!
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      07-21-2013, 10:31 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It's (BMW) profit margin WILL be higher than the E92 M3.
Your certainty about this intrigues me. Do you know how much money BMW makes on an M3 they sell the dealer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
For instance from 1998 to 2007 BMW roughly doubled the number of vehicles they sold whereas their net income went up nearly 600%. That trend is continuing. How and why - one major factor is LESS EXPENSE PUT INTO THEIR CARS.
I don't think BMW regards cost cutting as a major factor for growing their company. I'm not saying it's unimportant; but, if you put there profit making strategy on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd guess BMW might put cost cutting in the 2-3 range. Selling more cars and convincing customers to load them up with performance gizmos and options has, to me, way more impact on the bottom line.
I don't think the BMW move from V-8 to I-6 was meant as a cost cutting move. Somebody else has mentioned this - It's a return to their roots. The V-8 M3 thing appears to me to have been a venture into the muscle car arena. BMW has been more about nimbleness and agility and, evidently, they want to go back there.
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      07-21-2013, 10:39 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB View Post
I just read the full interview. It is clear to me that the M division has a clear sense of direction. They know exactly what they are doing, what the competition is doing, and where they want to go. I have no problems going from the E92 to the F82, and I can't wait to take delivery of it.
Nicely worded.

I love my E92 M3 to death and hopefully will never part with it. I am also looking forward to the new M2/M3/M4.

BMW ///M:
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      07-21-2013, 01:02 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by JulieDriving View Post
Nicely worded.

I love my E92 M3 to death and hopefully will never part with it. I am also looking forward to the new M2/M3/M4.

BMW ///M:
Thank you for the kind words. I agree with you that the E92 M3 is GREAT! I am just excited to see how they can improve upon it with the M4.
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      07-21-2013, 01:30 PM   #128
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CF roof & trunk on the sedan? Goodbye E60 M5, hello F80 for me. I hope I'm not trading reliability for fewer trips to the fuel pump. I know the handling will be better...
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      07-21-2013, 02:23 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by RMB View Post
I agree with you that the E92 M3 is GREAT! I am just excited to see how they can improve upon it with the M4.
I agree, I think it will be a more capable car than ours.
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      07-21-2013, 02:51 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmtl_135i View Post
Well he did say we will hear about the M2 in the near future, and we won't have 4 cylinder M cars in the near future.

I mean yeah he did not say it, but he was pretty clear. And I don't think it would be wise to formally announce the upcoming M2 when the 235i is not yet on sale.
He wasn't clear, which is exactly why we're playing connect the dots with these deliberately (not because he's a bad guy, but because I'm sure he's only allowed to release certain information at this time) ambiguous statements. What we're doing now is trying to rationalize speculation and predictions of an I6 M2 by piecing together vague statements in an interview.

I want an I6 M2 as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to get overly optimistic because of an article that I could construe into BMW "confirming" what I hope happens. As far as the M2 is concerned, I'm taking this article for what it is: official confirmation of nothing. Just like everyone else, now I'm stuck here waiting for more details...
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      07-21-2013, 02:53 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Very interesting statement from Dr.Nitschke ... if you read between the lines:


... that could have consequences on the choosen engíne layout(!) ... has Dr.Nitschke told us between the line the answer on the great engine question!?
4.4l V8 (4,395 cc) then cut out 2 cylinders, comes displacement 3.3l (3.296 cc) as you say previously on other topic. If this is true it means V6 M3.
...Hell no, M3 whit V6.

Last edited by Tåst; 07-21-2013 at 03:01 PM..
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      07-21-2013, 03:30 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Very interesting statement from Dr.Nitschke ... if you read between the lines:


... that could have consequences on the choosen engíne layout(!) ... has Dr.Nitschke told us between the line the answer on the great engine question!?
Great observation, however, making an effort to reduce polar moment in the chassis does imply that the engine will also be participating in such reductions.
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