Cup 2s or PS4s for every day driving

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 4play

It's a waste of money to drive Cup 2s for mild street use. The OP is in Chicago - there isn't a good driving road within 300 miles and he said he isn't tracking the car. Fun weekend drives, commute, or running errands, the PS4S is a better tire.

PS4S will last 4x as long as Cup 2s and there is no difference in anything short of sustained driving on the limit, where the PSC2 won't get greasy and PS4S will. And PS4S are better in rain.

You’ve rightly detailed some of the daily advantages of the PS4S, but I think underestimated the perceptible differences well short of the limit.

Switching from Cup 2 to the more aggressive 3R was immediately noticeable on road. Taking a step in the opposite direction (Cup 2 to PS4S) probably will be as well, again, depending upon the driver and how in tune they are with the GTS.



The more motorsport and direct the chassis (GTS is maximum), the more tire construction comes into focus. If you enjoy how the GTS feels “on it” 100% of the time, even just around town, then be prepared to lose some degree of that whenever fitting a less aggressive tire. In many cases, yeah, the exchange for > mileage, comfort, wet traction will be worth it.

In addition to the Trofeo R to PS4S exchange on another platform, used to cycle all varieties of road and track tires with my E90 on KW Clubsports. Each fitment created a different car, even during standard commuting.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by 4play

It's a waste of money to drive Cup 2s for mild street use. The OP is in Chicago - there isn't a good driving road within 300 miles and he said he isn't tracking the car. Fun weekend drives, commute, or running errands, the PS4S is a better tire.

PS4S will last 4x as long as Cup 2s and there is no difference in anything short of sustained driving on the limit, where the PSC2 won't get greasy and PS4S will. And PS4S are better in rain.

You can get the satin sidewall on either tire.

By that logic the whole car is a waste of money for mild street use. If overkill is the name of the game then why not really commit?

Additionally, you can easily get really long life out of a set of cup 2's if the car is only used for mild street use.

But, it's not my car and everyone is different. At the end of the day I think we're all just excited to see "daily driven" and "GTS" in the same sentence.

[jpdchicago]

Thank you for your comments everyone!
It has been ready helpful.
I have decided to order the cup 2 tires again.
I love the way the car feels and I do not want to loose any of it.
About to take the Gts to work. 60 degrees and sunny today!

[4play]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Switching from Cup 2 to the more aggressive 3R was immediately noticeable on road. Taking a step in the opposite direction (Cup 2 to PS4S) probably will be as well, again, depending upon the driver and how in tune they are with the GTS.

Have you driven the car on both? I had PS4S on the car and now have PSC2. About 6k miles on PS4S and 3k miles on the PSC2. Car is daily driven and both types of tires have been driven daily in varying weather, on road trips, in the mountains, on track, etc.

Unless you are getting the tires properly hot (150F+), there is minimal discernable difference in everyday driving. PS4S are maybe a bit more quiet (hard to tell as the car itself is quite loud) and aquaplane slightly less in standing water.

In the mountains, no difference in grip levels when tire temps are below ~120F (admittedly driving at 8/10ths max - you'd have to be an idiot to drive at 10/10ths on a public road). Once you get some heat into the Cup 2s, they do grip slightly better.

On track, first laps of both tires feel quite similar - PSC2 feedback is slightly better. After 2-3 laps, PS4S get greasy and slide a lot, whereas the PSC2s grip better and better.

My experience has been that I would much rather have a divorced setup when daily driving the car. PS4S are ideal for a daily driver, as they are cheaper, last longer, and are better at everything a daily is asked to do, especially if the car is never being driven on curvy roads or a track. Then have a separate set of race wheels with Hoosiers or Pirelli slicks.

It feels like a waste to me to burn up a tire in 5k miles driving to the gym/grocery store/office. If you aren't ever utilizing the full performance potential of the tire, why spend the money?

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

Additionally, you can easily get really long life out of a set of cup 2's if the car is only used for mild street use.

Define "really long". I struggled to get more than 6-7k on Cup 2s on previous cars that were not tracked, and my current set are at the wear bars after 3k miles (admittedly, 150 or so of those miles were on track). PS4S will last many times longer if not tracked.

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

By that logic the whole car is a waste of money for mild street use.

My point exactly. Owning a GTS and not tracking it makes zero sense to me. Buy a CS or ZCP.

As always, just my $0.02.

[apar]

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

My vote is cup 2's. I think a 4S, even though it's a good tire, is doing a disservice to the ethos of the car.

This is really the only legitimate argument you could make for Cup 2s if he's just daily driving it around only. Otherwise you're paying quite a premium for a tire that wears out significantly faster for an imperceptible difference in performance. All you're really paying for is the FEELING that it's better. Which to be fair is a lot of why we pay for most premium goods so to each their own.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by 4play

Have you driven the car on both? I had PS4S on the car and now have PSC2. About 6k miles on PS4S and 3k miles on the PSC2. Car is daily driven and both types of tires have been driven daily in varying weather, on road trips, in the mountains, on track, etc.

Unless you are getting the tires properly hot (150F+), there is minimal discernable difference in everyday driving. PS4S are maybe a bit more quiet (hard to tell as the car itself is quite loud) and aquaplane slightly less in standing water.

In the mountains, no difference in grip levels when tire temps are below ~120F (admittedly driving at 8/10ths max - you'd have to be an idiot to drive at 10/10ths on a public road). Once you get some heat into the Cup 2s, they do grip slightly better.

On track, first laps of both tires feel quite similar - PSC2 feedback is slightly better. After 2-3 laps, PS4S get greasy and slide a lot, whereas the PSC2s grip better and better.

My experience has been that I would much rather have a divorced setup when daily driving the car. PS4S are ideal for a daily driver, as they are cheaper, last longer, and are better at everything a daily is asked to do, especially if the car is never being driven on curvy roads or a track. Then have a separate set of race wheels with Hoosiers or Pirelli slicks.

It feels like a waste to me to burn up a tire in 5k miles driving to the gym/grocery store/office. If you aren't ever utilizing the full performance potential of the tire, why spend the money?

Define "really long". I struggled to get more than 6-7k on Cup 2s on previous cars that were not tracked, and my current set are at the wear bars after 3k miles (admittedly, 150 or so of those miles were on track). PS4S will last many times longer if not tracked.

My point exactly. Owning a GTS and not tracking it makes zero sense to me. Buy a CS or ZCP.

As always, just my $0.02.

For me, if your car isn't that fast all the time it isn't really that fast so I won't run slicks on a road car. It's like guys that make a billion horsepower on race gas but always have the caveat that they usually run pump gas. Ergo, your car makes pump gas power. I have the same philosophy with all aspects of my car; I drive my car to the track in the exact same specification as I do to the grocery store. I don't even adjust the damper settings.

Everyone is different so if your a 4s or cup 2 person as long as you get the maximum enjoyment out of the car that's all that matters at the end of the day.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by apar

This is really the only legitimate argument you could make for Cup 2s if he's just daily driving it around only. Otherwise you're paying quite a premium for a tire that wears out significantly faster for an imperceptible difference in performance. All you're really paying for is the FEELING that it's better. Which to be fair is a lot of why we pay for most premium goods so to each their own.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes. Everyone owns things for different reasons. I was just giving my two cents like everyone else here.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 4play

Have you driven the car on both? I had PS4S on the car and now have PSC2. About 6k miles on PS4S and 3k miles on the PSC2. Car is daily driven and both types of tires have been driven daily in varying weather, on road trips, in the mountains, on track, etc.

Unless you are getting the tires properly hot (150F+), there is minimal discernable difference in everyday driving. PS4S are maybe a bit more quiet (hard to tell as the car itself is quite loud) and aquaplane slightly less in standing water.

In the mountains, no difference in grip levels when tire temps are below ~120F (admittedly driving at 8/10ths max - you'd have to be an idiot to drive at 10/10ths on a public road). Once you get some heat into the Cup 2s, they do grip slightly better.

On track, first laps of both tires feel quite similar - PSC2 feedback is slightly better. After 2-3 laps, PS4S get greasy and slide a lot, whereas the PSC2s grip better and better.

My experience has been that I would much rather have a divorced setup when daily driving the car. PS4S are ideal for a daily driver, as they are cheaper, last longer, and are better at everything a daily is asked to do, especially if the car is never being driven on curvy roads or a track. Then have a separate set of race wheels with Hoosiers or Pirelli slicks.

It feels like a waste to me to burn up a tire in 5k miles driving to the gym/grocery store/office. If you aren't ever utilizing the full performance potential of the tire, why spend the money?

Many valid points in favor of the PS4S for daily purposes. And for a 2nd set of track wheels & tires.

But heat is not required to perceive a difference in responsiveness, directness, connectedness (insert additional motoring cliches here).

Tread depth, sidewall stiffness, compound stiffness, other elements of the construction, void ratio are greater influencers. Note I'm not talking about maximum 10/10ths performance potential at any moment (PS4S likely has more at lower operating temps, actually), but rather how the car feels, rides, and responds to inputs.

Swap from 3R, Trofeo R, Cup 2, NT01, etc. to high performance all season tires, for example, and how the car rides down the road and responds to the first corner you encounter will be immediately noticeable. A degree less noticeable with a high performance summer tire like the PS4S, but still there. (This does depend upon the r comp and platform too -- r comp to PS4S can be very noticeable within speed limits.)

Of the dozens of combinations of tires on various platforms I've run over the years, Cup 2 to PS4S on the GTS is not one of them. You describe it as a minimal discernable difference, have no reason to doubt your account. But GTS is a maximum, high strung car and for some any loss of directness will not be welcome. For others, the PS4S practicality advantages will win out.

No right answer, but if you're crazy about how the GTS feels right from the moment you set off, there might be more to consider than just how the two tires behave at the limit, once cooking.

Especially true since BMW star spec is a Cup 2 lite. It's arguably more at home on the street than managing full dry sessions at the track.

[4play]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Especially true since BMW star spec is a Cup 2 lite. It's arguably more at home on the street than managing full dry sessions at the track.

I think this might be the most important point of all. If you are putting star spec on the car rather than a more aggressive Cup 2 compound, there really might not be any discernable difference on the street vs PS4S. It would be interesting to run back to back instrumented tests to see the difference in roadholding/braking/acceleration figures.

Because of the weak star spec Cup 2s, I'm running AMG GT R spec Cup 2s in the front and 458 Speciale spec Cup 2s in the rear. Front grip was tremendous on track while the rears were less than impressive - probably better suited for a car with more weight in the rear. I couldn't get enough heat into them to get them really working (45-50F track day, with track temps maxing out at 60F).

[stevehifi]

from my experience star cup 2 is kind of a joke compared to other competition tires. When I ran them at the track the fronts totally delaminated/shredded.

It's meant more for the aggressive street with light occasional track.

I would run a more dedicated track tire for the GTS at the track instead of the star cup2.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

from my experience star cup 2 is kind of a joke compared to other competition tires. When I ran them at the track the fronts totally delaminated/shredded.

It's meant more for the aggressive street with light occasional track.

I would run a more dedicated track tire for the GTS at the track instead of the star cup2.

I agree, the PSC2 are not an ideal dry track tire. Although I am able to match the lap times I do with my 275-305/35R18 NT01 setup with the stock PSC2, the PSC2 destroy themselves pretty quickly, too many small tread blocks build heat. Further, I found them quite finicky to manage regarding pressures and temperatures.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Many valid points in favor of the PS4S for daily purposes. And for a 2nd set of track wheels & tires.

But heat is not required to perceive a difference in responsiveness, directness, connectedness (insert additional motoring cliches here).

Tread depth, sidewall stiffness, compound stiffness, other elements of the construction, void ratio are greater influencers. Note I'm not talking about maximum 10/10ths performance potential at any moment (PS4S likely has more at lower operating temps, actually), but rather how the car feels, rides, and responds to inputs.

Swap from 3R, Trofeo R, Cup 2, NT01, etc. to high performance all season tires, for example, and how the car rides down the road and responds to the first corner you encounter will be immediately noticeable. A degree less noticeable with a high performance summer tire like the PS4S, but still there. (This does depend upon the r comp and platform too -- r comp to PS4S can be very noticeable within speed limits.)

Of the dozens of combinations of tires on various platforms I've run over the years, Cup 2 to PS4S on the GTS is not one of them. You describe it as a minimal discernable difference, have no reason to doubt your account. But GTS is a maximum, high strung car and for some any loss of directness will not be welcome. For others, the PS4S practicality advantages will win out.

No right answer, but if you're crazy about how the GTS feels right from the moment you set off, there might be more to consider than just how the two tires behave at the limit, once cooking.

Especially true since BMW star spec is a Cup 2 lite. It's arguably more at home on the street than managing full dry sessions at the track.

^ This

The PSC2 is more than just ultimate grip.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I agree, the PSC2 are not an ideal dry track tire. Although I am able to match the lap times I do with my 275-305/35R18 NT01 setup with the stock PSC2, the PSC2 destroy themselves pretty quickly, too many small tread blocks build heat. Further, I found them quite finicky to manage regarding pressures and temperatures.

Hard to say how N spec would fare on an M chassis or star spec on Porsche, but here’s a front N spec after 3 days of pretty proper torture testing. My gut is that star specs wouldn’t have survived so unscathed.



Think BMW could sign on to increased Cup 2 durability without much, if any compromise elsewhere. Not sure why they haven’t punched that ticket with Michelin. The star spec inboard and (especially) outboard shoulder grooving is just way too extensive, creating the smaller, flexible blocks you reference, a lot of movement and heat. (This N spec is a 245 section width, pictured above is the GTS's 265 section width, which demonstrates just how wide that outer shoulder grooving is on the star spec. It's almost entirely lacking the "slick" outer shoulder characteristic common to all serious track tires.)

The cynical conclusion is that both entities like selling tires… but BMW/Michelin have lost major business over the years to aftermarket alternatives, whereas the N specs sell like skittles.

I haven’t put eyes on the OE star spec DT1 for the M2 CS, or the OE Track Connect option. Maybe they’re meaningfully updated. I see the Cup opt-in owner waiver is back -- that's a good sign!

And they’ll surely have to update the formula for the heavier, faster G8X CS, CSL.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Hard to say how N spec would fare on an M chassis or star spec on Porsche, but here’s a front N spec after 3 days of pretty proper torture testing. My gut is that star specs wouldn’t have survived so unscathed.

Think BMW could sign on to increased Cup 2 durability without much, if any compromise elsewhere. Not sure why they haven’t punched that ticket with Michelin. The star spec inboard and (especially) outboard shoulder grooving is just way too extensive, creating the smaller, flexible blocks you reference, a lot of movement and heat. (This N spec is a 245 section width, pictured above is the GTS's 265 section width, which demonstrates just how wide that outer shoulder grooving is on the star spec. It's almost entirely lacking the "slick" outer shoulder characteristic common to all serious track tires.)

The cynical conclusion is that both entities like selling tires… but BMW/Michelin have lost major business over the years to aftermarket alternatives, whereas the N specs sell like skittles.

I haven’t put eyes on the OE star spec DT1 for the M2 CS, or the OE Track Connect option. Maybe they’re meaningfully updated. I see the Cup opt-in owner waiver is back -- that's a good sign!

And they’ll surely have to update the formula for the heavier, faster G8X CS, CSL.

The G8X is offered with optional PSC2 from the get go. It will be interesting to see the tread pattern on these and how they fair on track.

Tread pattern and tire size are both the issue IMO. The 245 N1 on the GT3 has to carry ~30% less load than the 265 * on the F8X. For me, the biggest weak spot of the F8X, particularly for track use, is that it is grossly under-tired in stock form. Going with wider wheels and tires makes a world of difference.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The G8X is offered with optional PSC2 from the get go. It will be interesting to see the tread pattern on these and how they fair on track.

Tread pattern and tire size are both the issue IMO. The 245 N1 on the GT3 has to carry ~30% less load than the 265 * on the F8X. For me, the biggest weak spot of the F8X, particularly for track use, is that it is grossly under-tired in stock form. Going with wider wheels and tires makes a world of difference.

Absolutely agree with this. I ran the stock wheel/tire set up, moved to a 265/35/18 (295/35/18 rear) and am now on a 295/35/18 square set up and the car is so much better with the 295 up front. It's a totally different car.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

from my experience star cup 2 is kind of a joke compared to other competition tires. When I ran them at the track the fronts totally delaminated/shredded.

It's meant more for the aggressive street with light occasional track.

I would run a more dedicated track tire for the GTS at the track instead of the star cup2.

This.

I used to think PSC2s were great until I tried A052s. Best dual-purpose tire money can buy. Their only drawback is limited sizing.