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      04-22-2018, 05:27 PM   #23
1MOREMOD
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Im amazed at how little time on the brakes and how early fI'll throttle.
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      04-22-2018, 06:04 PM   #24
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why not just go ahead and sell dedicated race cars at this point? ah yea, the whole streetable marketing blah blah
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      04-22-2018, 07:31 PM   #25
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peanut gallery on these types of threads is hilarious!

What amazing driving skills, blew my mind watching the video. Very few of us can even drive 1/5th at this skill at a local track .. and what a car!! Porsche has perfected the track car.. I've driven a GT3.. it is a precision weapon.. My M4 is close and a ton of fun on the track but one day I'll get a GT3!
Agree on driver skills.

An m4 GTS even, isn't close to a GT3.

Porsche though, keeps showing more and more they just do it better. On an absolute scale, the only manufacturer that is making cars on the same level overall is McLaren (if they are working and not having electric issues and engines replaced).
On not being close. At least from a track day point of view I disagree. To me it all boils down to track times at my local track. I've seen really fast drivers in well setup m4s do a 1:40 at Laguna (my local track). Comprable drivers in Gt3s do a 1:38ish. So they're very close and I personally enjoy the back and forth with my Porsche pals at the track.
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      04-23-2018, 11:30 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by trackm4 View Post
On not being close. At least from a track day point of view I disagree. To me it all boils down to track times at my local track. I've seen really fast drivers in well setup m4s do a 1:40 at Laguna (my local track). Comprable drivers in Gt3s do a 1:38ish. So they're very close and I personally enjoy the back and forth with my Porsche pals at the track.
I see what you’re saying - 2 seconds a lap is still quite a far ways off. I tend to find a lot of fault in trying to compare HPDEs because no one if there always going 10/10ths like a real race (no one is winning anything) and you have varied levels of car prep, drivers, tires, etc which make it almost laughable to even try to think direct comparisons can be made.

I’m taking driver skill, set ups, etc out of it. Each at their best, no difference in driver skill, they are not close track time wise.
For example, the current GT3 and M4 GTS have the same HP and very similar weight, yet on the Ring, the GT3 is about 20 seconds faster and even in short tracks like LS the GT3 is 5 sec after per lap. Not even worth comparing they are so far off. The delta are even bigger with a more basic M4.

Just for comparison here is a 2014 GT3 and M4 Zcp and you can see they are not even in the same realm of track times. A current model Carrera S in summer tires is faster than an M4 GTS despite being well down on power, torque, aero and of course tires.
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      04-23-2018, 11:51 AM   #27
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why not just go ahead and sell dedicated race cars at this point? ah yea, the whole streetable marketing blah blah
Exactly what I am thinking. I am a Porsche fan, I have had a couple and I will have another. Take nothing away from the driver, this is an impressive performance, but this is a race car.

I used to be interested in 'ring times because it was amazing what 'they' could make a street car do, with all the comforts of a daily driver. This car was built to smash the 'ring, and it is an impressive piece but...
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      04-23-2018, 12:48 PM   #28
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why not just go ahead and sell dedicated race cars at this point? ah yea, the whole streetable marketing blah blah
They do sell dedicated customer race cars...Cayman GT4 Clubsport and 911 GT3 Cup.

The point of their RS line is drive to the track...race...then drive home. They are street legal, so one can drive to work or spirited drive in the canyons or cars and coffee...etc.
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      04-23-2018, 12:57 PM   #29
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They do sell dedicated customer race cars...Cayman GT4 Clubsport and 911 GT3 Cup.

The point of their RS line is drive to the track...race...then drive home. They are street legal, so one can drive to work or spirited drive in the canyons or cars and coffee...etc.
I would be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that most people that buy these cars could never go under 8:30 (so you have 1.5 mins to spare lol) on the ring... so for a street car it's too fast, for a street able race car, it's still too fast. it's essentially a race car that one doesn't have to be towed.... and when one gets there; one won't come close to reaching 70% of its limits.
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      04-23-2018, 01:46 PM   #30
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I would be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that most people that buy these cars could never go under 8:30 (so you have 1.5 mins to spare lol) on the ring... so for a street car it's too fast, for a street able race car, it's still too fast. it's essentially a race car that one doesn't have to be towed.... and when one gets there; one won't come close to reaching 70% of its limits.
So they should stop selling it? Make it slower? What’s your point?
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      04-23-2018, 02:33 PM   #31
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I do think that modern tires have sort of made the N'Ring time a bit of a foot note. The record 956 time was just a random lap that turned out to be the record. It was putting down similar times lap after lap (realizing it was running on race slicks). Even the times cars were putting down on non R Spec / Cup tires were mostly repeatable lap after lap.

But now we're seeing fifteen to thirty second fall off after the one hot lap and Kumho couldn't even keep their tires alive for a whole lap for the Viper ACR. Maybe we need to go to something like the two directional top speed runs. Time two or three N'Ring laps to give a better sense of the overall capabilities, not just a single old school qualifying lap. Or post both times, a single, tire killing lap and one it can repeat. Just seems like tires have taken over and whoever gets the newest, greatest thing that can stay alive for a 12.9 mile flying lap is going to rule until the next tire comes along.
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      04-23-2018, 03:01 PM   #32
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I would be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that most people that buy these cars could never go under 8:30 (so you have 1.5 mins to spare lol) on the ring... so for a street car it's too fast, for a street able race car, it's still too fast. it's essentially a race car that one doesn't have to be towed.... and when one gets there; one won't come close to reaching 70% of its limits.
So they should stop selling it? Make it slower? What's your point?
No issues w the car or record... the marketing is a bit iffy... can they show a lap of their cup car for comparison and what tires? etc etc

A line has to be drawn somewhere between street and race car... I mean the cup car would have to do 6:30, right?... right?
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      04-23-2018, 03:57 PM   #33
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I think it's possible that the GT3RS is actually faster than the race car, for that one magic lap before the tires glaze off. But the race car can do what it does without a slow run in lap and a super slow cool down lap.

Reminds me of an old story about the Viper coupe possibly being faster than an actual restricted NASCAR racer around the track.
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      04-23-2018, 04:44 PM   #34
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It all comes down to how much it sacrifices to put that time down. We want to know the times to know how nimble and fast the car is, which is important for carving up a secluded mountain road, but at what cost? Is it so stiff, low, with $2k tires and $20k brake rotors, lacking normal features, that it’s not a practical daily car anymore? People, sometimes fans, will rationalize just about anything, but at some point a reasonable person will decide no. A z/28 was fantastic for repeated laps, but not a practical daily. M4 gts the same. New cars/technology CAN let you have your cake and eat it too, but just the same, the line can be crossed into track-only. Oh, it may be “street legal”, but it’s really only in name or concept when it crosses the line. So that’s the real question. If you plan to track it, this isn’t really a debate. If you plan to track it and do anything outside of the track, it is.
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      04-23-2018, 06:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I think it's possible that the GT3RS is actually faster than the race car, for that one magic lap before the tires glaze off. But the race car can do what it does without a slow run in lap and a super slow cool down lap.

Reminds me of an old story about the Viper coupe possibly being faster than an actual restricted NASCAR racer around the track.
right... which I think is even more confusing lol
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      04-23-2018, 06:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
It all comes down to how much it sacrifices to put that time down. We want to know the times to know how nimble and fast the car is, which is important for carving up a secluded mountain road, but at what cost? Is it so stiff, low, with $2k tires and $20k brake rotors, lacking normal features, that it's not a practical daily car anymore? People, sometimes fans, will rationalize just about anything, but at some point a reasonable person will decide no. A z/28 was fantastic for repeated laps, but not a practical daily. M4 gts the same. New cars/technology CAN let you have your cake and eat it too, but just the same, the line can be crossed into track-only. Oh, it may be "street legal", but it's really only in name or concept when it crosses the line. So that's the real question. If you plan to track it, this isn't really a debate. If you plan to track it and do anything outside of the track, it is.
i would personally get a turbo s, double the comfort, be faster in every real world scenario and still run a 7:30 without any exertion... oh yeah, that would be on regular old michelin PSS
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      04-25-2018, 09:54 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
They do sell dedicated customer race cars...Cayman GT4 Clubsport and 911 GT3 Cup.

The point of their RS line is drive to the track...race...then drive home. They are street legal, so one can drive to work or spirited drive in the canyons or cars and coffee...etc.
Nah. The 911 Turbo seems more suited for that theory. It’s very robust and is evenly suited for DTTDH (i just made that up)situations. The GT3/RS are trophy pieces, garage ornaments, flippers, Manhattan Cipriani curbside show pieces.

A guy buys the RS. Wraps it. Drives it for 900 miles. Sells it back to dealer for a small fortune.

Last edited by 48Laws; 04-25-2018 at 09:59 AM.
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      04-25-2018, 09:59 AM   #38
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I've said this before and this video illustrates what other posters have said. 99% of drivers couldn't get that performance out of that car, nor could 99% of drivers get the performance out of their performance cars. This guy drove the shit out of that car, which is a purpose built weapon. I suspect he could beat the pants off of most folks driving their performance cars if he was in a family sedan.....kind of like Sabine in the panel van on Top Gear..

Porsche does this just about better than anyone and this is why I've always held Porsche in the same place as Ferrari, there core business has always been racing and sports cars. This is why I came back to Porsche, and for a 993. I love them all but I'm an old school kind of guy. I can get my cars to perform well, but I couldn't get the thing around a track the way a proper driver could.
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      04-25-2018, 10:23 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
I've said this before and this video illustrates what other posters have said. 99% of drivers couldn't get that performance out of that car, nor could 99% of drivers get the performance out of their performance cars. This guy drove the shit out of that car, which is a purpose built weapon. I suspect he could beat the pants off of most folks driving their performance cars if he was in a family sedan.....kind of like Sabine in the panel van on Top Gear..

Porsche does this just about better than anyone and this is why I've always held Porsche in the same place as Ferrari, there core business has always been racing and sports cars. This is why I came back to Porsche, and for a 993. I love them all but I'm an old school kind of guy. I can get my cars to perform well, but I couldn't get the thing around a track the way a proper driver could.
The first part of the video, taking those turns at those speeds and being on the throttle like that, is scary. It looks like it's playing a lot faster than the actual speeds. I have no doubt it's actually going that fast, but yeah, it gets so far beyond what most people can do that it starts to get ridiculous. This is where we'll see more automation kicking in over time, because performance is going to get to the point where humans can't "keep up".
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      05-01-2018, 04:43 AM   #40
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Hic sanmiyorum
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Maybe if they went to thinner glass...
hehe.. there are some missed apex's which mean like a dream lap there is still time to shave.. but in such a long track its hard to put them all together even once again..
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