Water injection issue?

[jinuwin]

Originally Posted by em4ef82

I have been monitoring the water consumption using below method (painters tape and marker), marking the water level after each drive. Since I changed the filter and cleaned the filter housing where the stone filter drops, immediately started seeing the difference. Although the lines moved very slowly (driving only weekends) I finally went through almost full tank of water with consistent water usage based on marked lines.
Instead of getting the tank down to dry, I drained the remaining water and topped it with fresh water then restarted monitoring - I know people say distilled water won't go bad but there must be a reason why those filters get clogged, not to mention the exp. on distilled water bottle.

Genius. Will also do this. Just eyeballing it seem like no water is going down at all. And that's with some hard pulls and spirited driving lol.

[4play]

Originally Posted by em4ef82

I know people say distilled water won't go bad but there must be a reason why those filters get clogged, not to mention the exp. on distilled water bottle.

It won't go "bad" per se - the stone filter gets clogged because most distilled water you buy in the grocery store or at Walgreens is not medical or lab grade distilled water.

It's usually distilled once with some minimal filtering and then is stored in low quality plastic jugs. A single distillation leaves VOCs in the water and only removes ~99.5% of impurities without additional distillation and filtration.

So you will still clog the filter over time. Now, if you got actually good distilled water (reverse osmosis filtered and multiple distillations) that was stored in stainless steel or glass, the filter would never clog (or would take many, many years to do so).

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Good info above thanks.

Noob question will any distilled H2O suffice or are there specific recommendations?

The GTS I am looking at will be getting pre purchase inspection hopefully early next week so I can purchase a BMW extended service plan fingers crossed.

I mean, don't used "purified" or "filtered" water, use the distilled water you can find in stores. But understand that it still has some impurities and you WILL need to replace the filter eventually.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by 4play

It won't go "bad" per se - the stone filter gets clogged because most distilled water you buy in the grocery store or at Walgreens is not medical or lab grade distilled water.

It's usually distilled once with some minimal filtering and then is stored in low quality plastic jugs. A single distillation leaves VOCs in the water and only removes ~99.5% of impurities without additional distillation and filtration.

So you will still clog the filter over time. Now, if you got actually good distilled water (reverse osmosis filtered and multiple distillations) that was stored in stainless steel or glass, the filter would never clog (or would take many, many years to do so).



I mean, don't used "purified" or "filtered" water, use the distilled water you can find in stores. But understand that it still has some impurities and you WILL need to replace the filter eventually.

Thanks for the above.
Wondering if anyone is using lab grade h20 sounds like it might be so expensive it would offset the cost of filter replacement.

Still waiting on the pre purchase inspection for my potential GTS...

[Flint Rockbone]

Originally Posted by jinuwin

ISTA shows water injection will only be used when:

- Coolant temp. above 60 degrees
- Ambient temp. above 5 degrees
- Water temp. above 5 degrees
- Engine is operated at maximum power range

I thought I read somewhere that "maximum power range" or as some have stated, spirited or hard driving, is equal to operating the engine above 5000 RPM. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by Flint Rockbone

I thought I read somewhere that "maximum power range" or as some have stated, spirited or hard driving, is equal to operating the engine above 5000 RPM. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

That's what I've heard as well - water injection doesn't kick in until you're above 5k rpms

[h_bakken]

Got my GTS yesterday, had 5200 miles on the clock.

Water injection definitely not working.

Put 150 miles on today with at least 10 redline runs in second gear and one through third gear, all in sport plus with TCS off.

Sport display HP maxed out less than 450 and didn't use any water from the reservoir.

Making appointment tomorrow, factory warranty is good through November 4

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Got my GTS yesterday, had 5200 miles on the clock.

Water injection definitely not working.

Put 150 miles on today with at least 10 redline runs in second gear and one through third gear, all in sport plus with TCS off.

Sport display HP maxed out less than 450 and didn't use any water from the reservoir.

Making appointment tomorrow, factory warranty is good through November 4

What are your impressions on how the car was driven by previous owner?

I believe that disuse is the cause of most of this trouble, more so than water quality. This is one of those high performance parts are engineered to be used not sit around deals.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

What are your impressions on how the car was driven by previous owner?

I believe that disuse is the cause of most of this trouble, more so than water quality. This is one of those high performance parts are engineered to be used not sit around deals.

Agreed!

First owner put less than 3k miles on in 3 years. Second owner similarly drove very infrequently, and said he rarely if ever exceeded 5k RPM, never had to add water in the 6 months of ownership.

Car going in to BMW Friday AM.

Glad factory warranty is still good...

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Agreed!

First owner put less than 3k miles on in 3 years. Second owner similarly drove very infrequently, and said he rarely if ever exceeded 5k RPM, never had to add water in the 6 months of ownership.

Car going in to BMW Friday AM.

Glad factory warranty is still good...

Yes agree. Although I don't drive mine much as well but when I do I rarely go in fifth gear. Mostly at third or fourth gear and keeping rpm 4 to below 6 k. And bursts of runs to see sports display go to around 490hp. But I think we need to drive it that way only. Then last few miles back cool it off by going to automatic. It's rather intense to drive it like that all the time.

[h_bakken]

Car at BMW San Antonio now getting diagnostic (and new Sport Cup 2).

I'll post back.

EDIT

Just heard back, getting new valve block, part should be in by Tuesday

[h_bakken]

Got it back today.

Valve block replaced with "optimized valve block" and vehicle reprogrammed.

Drove home, topped up water tank and did some 2nd gear WOT runs, hit ~ 500 on 2 of them but not the others, max on display varies a bit but generally seems just above half way between the 420 mark and the next one so maybe 460ish.

The two "successful" runs definitely felt different, but on all the others feels like the power is being curtailed, the HP display is wavering around about halfway between the two marks.

Interestingly the two 500 runs were done sport plus with MDM.

I wondered if it was DSC interfering on the others but I did several runs with DSC disabled and didn't seem to make a difference.

I did use a modest amount of water, so somethings different because before I didn't use any.

Anyone else experience behavior like this?

Are there other things that can limit the power besides the water injection system not working?

The temperature is in the low 80s here, the car was up to temperature, I had been driving for about 30 minutes.

The only thing I don't know about his tire temperature, maybe the car is cutting the power if it senses the rear end losing traction? I'm perplexed.

Going to drive a bunch this weekend, and if it doesn't shape up I'll probably take it back in next week and have them scan the codes, any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Got it back today.

Valve block replaced with "optimized valve block" and vehicle reprogrammed.

Drove home, topped up water tank and did some 2nd gear WOT runs, hit ~ 500 on 2 of them but not the others, max on display varies a bit but generally seems just above half way between the 420 mark and the next one so maybe 460ish.

The two "successful" runs definitely felt different, but on all the others feels like the power is being curtailed, the HP display is wavering around about halfway between the two marks.

Interestingly the two 500 runs were done sport plus with MDM.

I wondered if it was DSC interfering on the others but I did several runs with DSC disabled and didn't seem to make a difference.

I did use a modest amount of water, so somethings different because before I didn't use any.

Anyone else experience behavior like this?

Are there other things that can limit the power besides the water injection system not working?

The temperature is in the low 80s here, the car was up to temperature, I had been driving for about 30 minutes.

The only thing I don't know about his tire temperature, maybe the car is cutting the power if it senses the rear end losing traction? I'm perplexed.

Going to drive a bunch this weekend, and if it doesn't shape up I'll probably take it back in next week and have them scan the codes, any thoughts would be appreciated.

I can't comment on the iDrive horsepower read out thing but I do have an Awron gauge installed and can see a definitive difference in inlet temps when the water injection is or isn't working. I'm getting sorted for a track day this weekend and noticed inlet temps weren't dropping below about 100-105 on WOT runs in 3rd to redline. I swapped filters (again, 4th filter change this calendar year due to all the same symptoms) and temps immediately dropped as they should at WOT from 100-105 to a few degrees above ambient temperature (about 85 here in SoCal) in less than a second. I'm not saying the power gauge is useless but I'd try and find something a bit more confidence inspiring to show that the water injection is working as designed.

On a side note, I think the filters get clogged way more easily than a lot of us think they can. As I said; I've gone through 4 this year already because inlet temps were too high. I daily drive my GTS but drive it like a sane person on the street so I don't think I'm ever really using the water injection on a regular basis. It's all just conjecture on my part but I think unless you're consistently using the water injection and constantly keeping water flowing through the filter it's going to get clogged almost right away.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

I can't comment on the iDrive horsepower read out thing but I do have an Awron gauge installed and can see a definitive difference in inlet temps when the water injection is or isn't working. I'm getting sorted for a track day this weekend and noticed inlet temps weren't dropping below about 100-105 on WOT runs in 3rd to redline. I swapped filters (again, 4th filter change this calendar year due to all the same symptoms) and temps immediately dropped as they should at WOT from 100-105 to a few degrees above ambient temperature (about 85 here in SoCal) in less than a second. I'm not saying the power gauge is useless but I'd try and find something a bit more confidence inspiring to show that the water injection is working as designed.

On a side note, I think the filters get clogged way more easily than a lot of us think they can. As I said; I've gone through 4 this year already because inlet temps were too high. I daily drive my GTS but drive it like a sane person on the street so I don't think I'm ever really using the water injection on a regular basis. It's all just conjecture on my part but I think unless you're consistently using the water injection and constantly keeping water flowing through the filter it's going to get clogged almost right away.

Thanks for this.

I don't doubt what you're saying about the water injection system not liking to sit idle, that is a theme that's I've been seeing throughout this thread.

When you say filter I assume you mean the stone filter in the valve block?

I probably should order some of these, do you have the part number handy? I think there was a threat on how to change them out yourself, but if you have any tips and tricks I'd appreciate it.

Also your inlet temperature gauge, Who did the installation, I'm assuming it's not BMW dealer.

Yes and I agree that the iDrive power gauge may not be the best test, but it is reading much differently now then before I had the valve block replaced, so I think it provides some useful information, right now it's all I have.

It may seem like I'm overthinking this but I've got about six weeks left on the original factory warranty and still don't have confirmation that I'm able to extend through BMW and might end up with a third-party warranty which makes me a bit nervous.

BMW seems very reluctant to extend the warranty on this particular car. Perhaps their actuaries tell them to try everything to deny warranty extensions on the GTS?

I also remember seeing somewhere that it's worthwhile buying a scan tool for the OBD, does anyone have any recommendations?

I do have a scan tool for my BMW bikes, GS-911WIFI by Hexcode.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Thanks for this.

I don't doubt what you're saying about the water injection system not liking to sit idle, that is a theme that's I've been seeing throughout this thread.

When you say filter I assume you mean the stone filter in the valve block?

I probably should order some of these, do you have the part number handy? I think there was a threat on how to change them out yourself, but if you have any tips and tricks I'd appreciate it.

Also your inlet temperature gauge, Who did the installation, I'm assuming it's not BMW dealer.

Yes and I agree that the iDrive power gauge may not be the best test, but it is reading much differently now then before I had the valve block replaced, so I think it provides some useful information, right now it's all I have.

It may seem like I'm overthinking this but I've got about six weeks left on the original factory warranty and still don't have confirmation that I'm able to extend through BMW and might end up with a third-party warranty which makes me a bit nervous.

BMW seems very reluctant to extend the warranty on this particular car. Perhaps their actuaries tell them to try everything to deny warranty extensions on the GTS?

I also remember seeing somewhere that it's worthwhile buying a scan tool for the OBD, does anyone have any recommendations?

I do have a scan tool for my BMW bikes, GS-911WIFI by Hexcode.

Correct, the stone filter. They're 38 (?) dollars from my local dealer.

As for a tool, I just ran down to cvs and bought some tweezers that I filed down and bent up in my vice. They work a treat and was a grand total of $4.95. I've got to pinch my pennies for all the filters I have to buy.

I did it myself. It just replaces the left drivers side vent and plugs into the OBD2 port. Took about an hour. However, I'm pretty sure a BMW dealer would do it for you depending on how good your relationship is with them.

I haven't had any issues with extended warranty procedures either. I haven't bought an extended warranty but have to figure it out within the next month. I don't know if it's worth it for me. I know the water injection isn't cheap to replace but I can't think of any other issues on my particular car that could warrant the cost of an extended warranty. I may pin the crank hub as a precautionary measure rather than get the warranty because thats all I'm really worried about and even if I get a warranty I'll have to pin the hub in a few years rather than a few months.

[Gomeler]

After the valve block replacement the car is once gain consuming water at the previously normal rate. However, the internal iDrive power gauge was still showing 415-420hp, and my lap times didn't drop like I would expect with a +10% power bump. Did go through 25 gallons of gas and ~3 gallons of water, averaging 5.9mpg.

Been too busy with work to hassle the dealership, but I have tomorrow off. I'm going to pull the battery and completely de-power the car, beat on it in a canyon, and if I'm still showing 415-420hp I'll give them a call to see if there is any diagnostic information relating to which map the car is running. I do have an OBD2 scanner, I need to see if the boost pressure registers, and need to check if the GTS tune bumps that up a few PSI. I cannot imagine they're gaining 50hp via just advancing the timing..

I wish this system just worked and I trusted it. I am annoyed knowing that I'm likely down ~50hp. At least GT3s have the politeness to break a rod instead of limping around down on power

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

After the valve block replacement the car is once gain consuming water at the previously normal rate. However, the internal iDrive power gauge was still showing 415-420hp, and my lap times didn't drop like I would expect with a +10% power bump. Did go through 25 gallons of gas and ~3 gallons of water, averaging 5.9mpg.

Been too busy with work to hassle the dealership, but I have tomorrow off. I'm going to pull the battery and completely de-power the car, beat on it in a canyon, and if I'm still showing 415-420hp I'll give them a call to see if there is any diagnostic information relating to which map the car is running. I do have an OBD2 scanner, I need to see if the boost pressure registers, and need to check if the GTS tune bumps that up a few PSI. I cannot imagine they're gaining 50hp via just advancing the timing..

I wish this system just worked and I trusted it. I am annoyed knowing that I'm likely down ~50hp. At least GT3s have the politeness to break a rod instead of limping around down on power

Let us know what happens.

I definitely hit ~ 490 twice today, but not reproducibly.

The rest of the time it's showing 460 or slightly more.

Before the replacement it was just under 450 (M4CS output).

Curious what disconnecting the power does?

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

Correct, the stone filter. They're 38 (?) dollars from my local dealer.

As for a tool, I just ran down to cvs and bought some tweezers that I filed down and bent up in my vice. They work a treat and was a grand total of $4.95. I've got to pinch my pennies for all the filters I have to buy.

I did it myself. It just replaces the left drivers side vent and plugs into the OBD2 port. Took about an hour. However, I'm pretty sure a BMW dealer would do it for you depending on how good your relationship is with them.

I haven't had any issues with extended warranty procedures either. I haven't bought an extended warranty but have to figure it out within the next month. I don't know if it's worth it for me. I know the water injection isn't cheap to replace but I can't think of any other issues on my particular car that could warrant the cost of an extended warranty. I may pin the crank hub as a precautionary measure rather than get the warranty because thats all I'm really worried about and even if I get a warranty I'll have to pin the hub in a few years rather than a few months.

Ahh this makes sense, the gauge reads off the OBD. I was envisioning tapping the intake and all sorts of stuff like I used to have on my old turbo diesel.

Can you elaborate a little bit on pinning the crank hub?

I spun a crank pulley on an old Subaru once because the key at the end of the crank shaft got loose somehow, I had to buy a rebuilt engine...

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Ahh this makes sense, the gauge reads off the OBD. I was envisioning tapping the intake and all sorts of stuff like I used to have on my old turbo diesel.

Can you elaborate a little bit on pinning the crank hub?

I spun a crank pulley on an old Subaru once because the key at the end of the crank shaft got loose somehow, I had to buy a rebuilt engine...

There are a ton of threads on pinned solutions. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the right way to do it as well. Simone claims one works and everyone else claims that same one is garbage for every solution on the market. Check the non GTS engine forum and you'll find them all.

[SYT_Shadow]

If I were keeping the engine stock I would not pin the hub. The install is sketchy as could be, metal shards all over the place...

I'm sure that other than some freak accidents the cause is the torque in tuned cars. When you read the spun hub crank threads there are dozens of people saying things like 'installed stage 2 tune, spun hub the next track day'.

The GTS and CS are both torque limited to the same number. The GTS has extra power because despite not having more torque it maintains its torque for longer, generating extra power.

I've been using my CS exclusively as a track car since it was new. It gets double tracked by two savages. We are now closing the second season with 0 issues.

Look at it this way: the CS/GTS/regular Ms use the exact same hub crank than the M4 GT4 race car. If you follow IMSA you'll see 0 M cars out of the race because their hub crank spun even in endurance races.

[Flint Rockbone]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Are there other things that can limit the power besides the water injection system not working?

Have you checked your air induction system for leaks? Shortly after taking possession of my car, I felt like the car was under-powered. I was coming from a 550i and I fully expected this car to have more pull. Then the car would start throwing the check engine light when I would push it a bit. Turns out that the J Pipe had come loose and the engine wasn't receiving the full turbo boost. A quick diagnostic from my local BMW dealer found the issue.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Flint Rockbone

Have you checked your air induction system for leaks? Shortly after taking possession of my car, I felt like the car was under-powered. I was coming from a 550i and I fully expected this car to have more pull. Then the car would start throwing the check engine light when I would push it a bit. Turns out that the J Pipe had come loose and the engine wasn't receiving the full turbo boost. A quick diagnostic from my local BMW dealer found the issue.

I'll mention that, car was just in for a full diagnostic which led them to replace the valve block.

I'm gonna drive the car hard this weekend hopefully get the tires heated up, keep an eye on power output And record water consumption, then bring the car in next week for a quick scan to see if it's throwing any codes.

[Gomeler]

Agreed, would not pin the crank unless I was modding for big power. In my opinion I'd buy a second S55 powered car to mod for big power, as I could not imagine trying to get this thing to hook on track with even more torque. Watching a guy struggle with a ZL1 last weekend was comical.

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Curious what disconnecting the power does?

I assume the ECU has learned that water injection wasn't working, and has defaulted to the Comp/CS tune. By pulling the power, I am also assuming that the ECU will forget all settings, and set a new baseline(timing, CS vs GTS map). If this doesn't work then I need to find whatever magical button forces the car in the GTS map.

I only compete against myself(and I suppose a few Porsches ) with this car, but being down 50hp is annoying to me.

edit: Guess I get to figure out how much my BMW dealership is going to tolerate me, car still showed 420hp after a battery reset. I'd say altitude could be a factor, but the car dyno'd identical to a M3 Comp within 10 minutes of the Comp dynoing. Would think if water injection was fixed and the map was working, at a minimum I'd see ~465hp on the iDrive vs ~415-420hp.