6MT or DCT?

[IEDEI]

next car would be a manual, also.

I really appreciate dual clutch gearboxes. I dd an A3 quattro with a fantastic S-Tronic\DSG gearbox before I got my 1er and it really was an amazing gearbox. I kept it in manual mode 99% of the time and it felt like a race car gearbox, albeit not in a race car! ha.

my problem is that my legs used to become restless with less activity and I hated sitting in traffic riding the brake pedal----other than that I think DCTs are amazing. Unfortunately most owners just plop them in D and never even use them as intended, which is a bit of a fail.

I went back to a manual in the 135is and would likely stick to one for my next car as well

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

I hated sitting in traffic riding the brake pedal

I guess it depends how the DCT is programmed. In the 335/135 applications, the DCT is programmed to feel more like a standard automatic; with creep prgogrammed in when the brake pedal is released. I believe the the VW/Audi DSG is programmed the same way. Hence the need to "ride the brake pedal". However, in the M3 application, the DCT clutch does not engage until the throttle pedal is depressed. No need to ride the brake pedal. Giving it a feel that is more akin to a manual transmission.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I guess it depends how the DCT is programmed. In the 335/135 applications, the DCT is programmed to feel more like a standard automatic; with creep prgogrammed in when the brake pedal is released. I believe the the VW/Audi DSG is programmed the same way. Hence the need to "ride the brake pedal". However, in the M3 application, the DCT clutch does not engage until the throttle pedal is depressed. No need to ride the brake pedal. Giving it a feel that is more akin to a manual transmission.

verrrry interesting! I did now know that! the only M3s I've driven are manual. I should check out a DCT one just to see how it feels

[midwest 340xi 6sp]

DCT on my E92 M3 and loved it...If I go M3/M4, it will be with DCT and a crap-load of CF too

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

Not a weak reply at all. Even though the " computer controlled put the car in drive bmw" may be quicker to 60 mph for as great as it's supposed to be, U.S. Enthusiasts still prefer 6 MT. Really only people that have to have the latest gadgetry and are not comfortable actually driving will opt for the computer.

The M-DCT is significantly faster than a 6MT in both manual and automatic modes.

Also, your conclusion about "enthusiasts" is patently false. There are a ton of enthusiasts right here on this forum, many much more serious track junkies than me, who have posted about their reasons for choosing M-DCT and their love of the unit.

Originally Posted by Ftc120

And yes I have driven a Dct. = boring !

I find it tough to believe that any real enthusiast can't find some things to very much enjoy and appreciate about the transmission. It begs the question again, driven it in both manual and automatic modes, in straights and through the twisties as very high speeds and low speeds as well.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I guess it depends how the DCT is programmed. In the 335/135 applications, the DCT is programmed to feel more like a standard automatic; with creep prgogrammed in when the brake pedal is released. I believe the the VW/Audi DSG is programmed the same way. Hence the need to "ride the brake pedal". However, in the M3 application, the DCT clutch does not engage until the throttle pedal is depressed. No need to ride the brake pedal. Giving it a feel that is more akin to a manual transmission.

Exactly, I've always appreciated this subtle feature of the M-DCT. It takes just a very slight nudge on the gas to make the car creep.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

I have see a lot of polls like this and I have yet seen one were the Dct actually received more votes. Wonder why ? .

Remember until the smg, which was a failure, all M cars were manuals. And arguably the two best m cars of all time, the e 39 m5 and the e30 m3(1990) were in fact manuals.

I have no idea really the relevance of which prior BMW models were available exclusively with MT. You do realize the new Porsche 991 911 GT3, perhaps the ultimate street legal track car (less odd beasts like the Xbow and Atom), is now available with PDK (dual clutch) exclusively? That's more significant than the history you are citing.

Also, one should believe reality over polls. The global take rate on the M-DCT for the M3 was about 63% (source). It can obviously be debated how many wanted the transmission for comfort, their inability to drive stick, ability to munch burger while driving or other such "unpure" reasons. Either way there are a ton of "real" enthusiasts in this 63% as well.

This data is the fundamental reason I have questioned the predictive power of this poll earlier in this thread.

The E90 in US and Canada remains a very odd standout in the data with an overwhelming majority choosing MT pre LCI and nearly the opposite post LCI... Overall take rate post LCI are significantly higher. I'm sure your explanation for this isn't that folks realized how good it is but rather that all of the purists, track junkies were early adopters and bought the car early. All post LCI buyers are just a bunch of posers...

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

Not a weak reply at all. Even though the " computer controlled put the car in drive bmw" may be quicker to 60 mph for as great as it's supposed to be, U.S. Enthusiasts still prefer 6 MT. Really only people that have to have the latest gadgetry and are not comfortable actually driving will opt for the computer.

I know a number of people who have M3s with DCT and I would not characterize them as people who are "not comfortable actually driving". One friend is an experienced track driver and racer who has a Lime Rock Edition M3 with a DCT. Another is one of the few Americans who competed in Formula and who had an E93 convertible with a DCT in his stable of cars and another is currently driving a BMW in ALMS (now the Tudor Unified Sports Car Series) and has an M3 with a DCT a street car. Still another is a top driving coach who ran the Formula BMW series in the US. All of them are (obviously) very good at shifting MTs, most of them own one or several cars with MTs and all of them have said that they like the DCT.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I know a number of people who have M3s with DCT and I would not characterize them as people who are "not comfortable actually driving". One friend is an experienced track driver and racer who has a Lime Rock Edition M3 with a DCT. Another is one of the few Americans who competed in Formula and who had an E93 convertible with a DCT in his stable of cars and another is currently driving a BMW in ALMS (now the Tudor Unified Sports Car Series) and has an M3 with a DCT a street car. Still another is a top driving coach who ran the Formula BMW series in the US. All of them are (obviously) very good at shifting MTs, most of them own one or several cars with MTs and all of them have said that they like the DCT.

That is hear say and wouldn't hold up in court

(BTW, I am a DCT fan )

[gee-m-w]

There is a means test for manual.

1. Can you drive stick?
2. Do you want to save $2900 by doing your own shifts?
3. Is a stick practical for 90% of your driving?

The most useful data we could ask BMW for is, what percentage of custom ordered e90/e92 M3 came with 6MT? The dealer is prone to ordering a DCT because they can sell it to anyone.

[jbockrd]

I don't think there are many people on this forum that can't drive stick, am I wrong? The DCT option is mostly because of commuting needs or the fastest shifts I would imagine. My drive to work is incredibly pleasant with a 6M

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by jbockrd

I don't think there are many people on this forum that can't drive stick, am I wrong? The DCT option is mostly because of commuting needs or the fastest shifts I would imagine. My drive to work is incredibly pleasant with a 6M

Very true indeed! I am perfectly happy shifting the car and having a romp once in awhile, but the main concern is whether I want to shift ALL of the time. DCT it is.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

You mean lazy.

Your opinion is noted. Moving on.

[RMB]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

Your opinion is noted. Moving on.

Definitely move on. I can't believe this is even a discussion. I'm going with DCT and others are going with MT. Doesn't really matter.

Thank you phishhead24 for pointing out the obvious!

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by RMB

Definitely move on. I can't believe this is even a discussion. I'm going with DCT and others are going with MT. Doesn't really matter.

Thank you phishhead24 for pointing out the obvious!

No worries. Be safe out there brother!

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by jbockrd

I don't think there are many people on this forum that can't drive stick, am I wrong? The DCT option is mostly because of commuting needs or the fastest shifts I would imagine. My drive to work is incredibly pleasant with a 6M

Heh there are not many that would admit to it.

[varsity]

Has nobody used the word "wife" in this thread?

The only reason I'm opting for DCT is because my wife is terrible at driving three-pedal cars, and she will most likely use this car often. We have three cars and are downsizing to two. I would much rather have a 3-pedal, but practical considerations outweigh my preference.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

Yah. Key phrase " most of them own several cars with manual transmissions". In other words the Dct is basically there just to change things up and have somthing different. I would be willing to bet they would not sell all of their manual transmissions to own a Dct.

Interesting that you know the motivations of people that not only you have never met but you don't know who they are.

As for not selling their manual transmissions. probably correct since the manual transmission cars include a Ferrari 275GTB, a 1954 Mercedes 300SL Gullwing, a Porsche 356, a 1955 MGTF and a 1962 Ferrari California. I sure as hell would not sell any of those to buy an M3 DCT.

The guy who had the M3 convertible with the DCT now has a Lime Rock Edition M3 with an MT. I have not discussed which one he prefers, I suspect the Lime Rock Edition but not necessarily because of the transmission.

The guy that drives professionally for BMW only owns one street car and it is an M3 with the DCT (it is garaged at his parents home as he attends college in NYC and does not really need a car). The guy who ran the Formula BMW series in the US uses an M3 with DCT on the track for his coaching and drives a BMW 1 Series with a steptronic as his street car.

[bmwluvr24]

You sure are passionate about such a trivial thing. The same argument could be made towards having a 6MT. "Manuals are for those who think that every road is a racetrack." See how easy that was? It didn't change the fact that I still love a manual, but would not prefer it for commuting or every day driving in a high traffic area.

[visualguy]

If I had to spend more than 20-30 minutes or so a day in stop-and-go traffic, then I would prefer automatic, otherwise manual. I guess the other case for automatic would be driving in a very hilly town like SF - manual is no fun there.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

Dct = good for people who can not handle 3 peddles or have to have the latest gadgetry.

At this point high end performance cars are only available with two pedal transmissions and professional race drivers almost universally prefer to shift with paddles so perhaps a better slogan would be"

"Manual transmissions, the preferred choice of amateur drivers in low end cars."

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by visualguy

If I had to spend more than 20-30 minutes or so a day in stop-and-go traffic, then I would prefer automatic, otherwise manual. I guess the other case for automatic would be driving in a very hilly town like SF - manual is no fun there.

I have no particular bias for or against MTs or ATs but I drove MTs in NYC rush hour traffic for years and it never bothered me. Shifting an MT just becomes second nature after a while.