2017 M3 Comp package owner - steering feel lackluster

CanAutM3 · 11-28-2016, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW BMW

...but than again I have the 265 tires in the front on coilovers and a good alignment so that probably gives me more of a feel for the steering inputs.

^This

Wheel spacers installed in the front can also contribute to reduce steering feedback

NewM3driver · 11-28-2016, 09:50 PM

I owned an E90 and drove it 50,000 miles. I find the steering on the 17 ZCP to be superior. I leave it in sport... sport plus on the highway. Folks read stuff online and then love to harp on it.

I've said it here before... if you want the very best steering feel go get yourself a 993 Porsche C2 1995 thru 1998 That vintage air cooled 911 would tug at your hands like no other car. Trust me, the new 911 steering feel doesnt even come close. 'We also owned a 1990 mazda miata that had non power rack and pinion steering... heavy around town but beautifully weighted and communicative once on the move.

The ZCP M3 drives better than 99.9 percent of the cars on the road. Stop nit picking and enjoy it.

Falafel Combo · 11-29-2016, 06:03 AM

We're not allowed to criticize the ZCP, until the M4 CS is released. Once that happens, you can trash the ZCP. But for now, it's still better than the civic M3, says everyone who got a deal.

PS: personally, I don't miss the e92 steering one bit.

vdude · 11-30-2016, 01:28 AM

I currently own an E90 and F80 M3 (both with the comp package). For fun, my friends and I have done several back to back comparisons including fwy runs, canyons, Angeles Crest etc. I've put 50k miles on my E90 compared to 3k miles on the F80.

I like the steering in the F80 and believe the claims that its one of the better electric systems on the market but think that the steering in my E90 is significantly better.

BUT there are so many potential variables within the same gen car that comparing different gens is even more challenging. Here's some of the variables I experienced with my own E90:
* Tires: I'm currently running RE-11s which provide significantly better steering response than the OE contis. Tires and pressures can make a big difference.
* Alignment: About a year ago, I noticed a decline in the steering response and handling. I decided to get an alignment before investing in more costly alternatives. Lang Racing in Irvine did a special alignment based on the M3 CRT specs and it made a significant difference (a regular stock alignment could've also helped since the car went 3+ years without one)
* Spacers: I'm currently running front and rear spacers. They initially caused intermittent steering vibrations based on speed and cornering loads (which went away after a good hub-cleaning/wheel re-torque.
* Programming: I had Alex at Alpine program more steering effort (believe it was 10%-15% - only affects the most aggressive setting) - this IMO improved overall feel.

Since my E90 is no longer stock, any one of the above variables could skew my opinion. Point is any of the above (and more variables including suspension wear, recency of comparison, conditions etc) could also affect the opinion of others.

In any case here's my personal opinion of the E90 vs F80 steering based on back to back runs and daily driving in similar roads/conditions etc:

-Feedback:
* E90: It's hard to explain but the steering has subtle vibration changes that are variable based on suspension load, road texture so I get a sense of what the front wheels are doing at all times.
* F80: The steering has a subtle vibration to communicate road feel but as good as it is in a straight line, when cornering hard I've always felt that there was an intangible difference compared to my E90 and E46. It took a few back to back canyon and mountain runs but I think I've figured it out. Despite the changes in road surface, traction, cornering loads etc the vibration frequency doesn't seem to change so it's harder to tell what the front wheels are doing. It's almost as if the feel is dare-I-say "simulated". Admittedly, I haven't explored the true limits of the F80 and might have a different opinion once I do.

-Precision/Effort:
* E90: The effort feels ideal (especially after the coding) and the steering feels very precise. I know the F80 is supposed to be more nimble but the way my E90 is setup makes it feel the opposite especially at low to moderate speeds
* F80: The 3 settings provide good options based on preferred effort level. I prefer the sport setting for regular DD (similar in weight to my E90) but have my M1 programmed to Sport plus. While the ratio is quick and there is zero play in any setting, there seems to be a fair amount of filtering - if I recall correctly one review described it as "syrupy". This might be exagerated but after comparing both systems I think this is a way of describing the lack of mechanical feel that the electric systems have.

Interested to learn more about what others think.

solstice · 11-30-2016, 10:01 AM

To the OP you are right and it's a pity but the M3s EPS is one of the better and it's likely you will adapt as I have. You probably will never love the steering feel but it will be ok. There are other very good things about the car to make it highly enjoyable. To me the chassis and suspension ( I have the passive and it's pretty much perfect for my liking on a street car ) is the big event of this generation.

With my E90 M3 the first I noticed when driving another car was how I missed the lovely stable front end and steering feel, with the F80 it is the taut chassis/suspension I miss when driving another car. Almost everything else on standard setup feels wobbly and or crashy in comparison.

stevehifi · 12-01-2016, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vdude

I currently own an E90 and F80 M3 (both with the comp package). For fun, my friends and I have done several back to back comparisons including fwy runs, canyons, Angeles Crest etc. I've put 50k miles on my E90 compared to 3k miles on the F80.

I like the steering in the F80 and believe the claims that its one of the better electric systems on the market but think that the steering in my E90 is significantly better.

BUT there are so many potential variables within the same gen car that comparing different gens is even more challenging. Here's some of the variables I experienced with my own E90:
* Tires: I'm currently running RE-11s which provide significantly better steering response than the OE contis. Tires and pressures can make a big difference.
* Alignment: About a year ago, I noticed a decline in the steering response and handling. I decided to get an alignment before investing in more costly alternatives. Lang Racing in Irvine did a special alignment based on the M3 CRT specs and it made a significant difference (a regular stock alignment could've also helped since the car went 3+ years without one)
* Spacers: I'm currently running front and rear spacers. They initially caused intermittent steering vibrations based on speed and cornering loads (which went away after a good hub-cleaning/wheel re-torque.
* Programming: I had Alex at Alpine program more steering effort (believe it was 10%-15% - only affects the most aggressive setting) - this IMO improved overall feel.

Since my E90 is no longer stock, any one of the above variables could skew my opinion. Point is any of the above (and more variables including suspension wear, recency of comparison, conditions etc) could also affect the opinion of others.

In any case here's my personal opinion of the E90 vs F80 steering based on back to back runs and daily driving in similar roads/conditions etc:

-Feedback:
* E90: It's hard to explain but the steering has subtle vibration changes that are variable based on suspension load, road texture so I get a sense of what the front wheels are doing at all times.
* F80: The steering has a subtle vibration to communicate road feel but as good as it is in a straight line, when cornering hard I've always felt that there was an intangible difference compared to my E90 and E46. It took a few back to back canyon and mountain runs but I think I've figured it out. Despite the changes in road surface, traction, cornering loads etc the vibration frequency doesn't seem to change so it's harder to tell what the front wheels are doing. It's almost as if the feel is dare-I-say "simulated". Admittedly, I haven't explored the true limits of the F80 and might have a different opinion once I do.

-Precision/Effort:
* E90: The effort feels ideal (especially after the coding) and the steering feels very precise. I know the F80 is supposed to be more nimble but the way my E90 is setup makes it feel the opposite especially at low to moderate speeds
* F80: The 3 settings provide good options based on preferred effort level. I prefer the sport setting for regular DD (similar in weight to my E90) but have my M1 programmed to Sport plus. While the ratio is quick and there is zero play in any setting, there seems to be a fair amount of filtering - if I recall correctly one review described it as "syrupy". This might be exagerated but after comparing both systems I think this is a way of describing the lack of mechanical feel that the electric systems have.

Interested to learn more about what others think.

Thanks for the review. As I drive the F80 M3 more I realize that the car actually turns in quicker and flatter than the E90. (less loading) and the steering feels very much 'arcade style' to use a video game analogy but
the good news is that if you put your trust in the car- it does what you want.
To be honest the car is really a different driving experience- between the more torquey, less rev happy power delivery, stiffer suspension and video game like steering it's going to be an interesting car.

Westsider45 · 05-11-2018, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehifi

somehow the feel or feedback in the F80 has been 'filtered or damped out'. Maybe it's the shocks or some hardware in the steering rack/column. Hard to say.

It's the "pull-drift compensation".

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehifi

Thanks for the review. As I drive the F80 M3 more I realize that the car actually turns in quicker and flatter than the E90. (less loading) and the steering feels very much 'arcade style' to use a video game analogy but

That is the best description (analogy) for F80 (or F30) steering I have seen!

m3rman · 07-10-2019, 05:20 PM

Completely agree with the video game/arcade style steering feel. It's the one thing that my old car (BRZ) does much better than the M3.

DanMpower · 07-11-2019, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newcar2020

Completely agree with the video game/arcade style steering feel. It's the one thing that my old car (BRZ) does much better than the M3.

I think the BRZ/FRS has some of the best steering feedback/balance of any car I've driven.

I think my E92 M3 has lots of feedback, you feel everything in the wheel transmitted from the road, all raw and non-filtered. Sometimes I find it a bit too much though, the F80 has less raw feedback from the road but I think it strikes a nice balance of feel and comfort for long trips.

The BRZ has that raw, direct feel but is toned down to perfection. I wished all cars had BRZ/FRS steering feel/tuning.

11-28-2016, 09:50 PM	#24
NewM3driver Colonel 1110 Rep 2,007 Posts Drives: 2017 M3 ZCP Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: CT iTrader: (0)	I owned an E90 and drove it 50,000 miles. I find the steering on the 17 ZCP to be superior. I leave it in sport... sport plus on the highway. Folks read stuff online and then love to harp on it. I've said it here before... if you want the very best steering feel go get yourself a 993 Porsche C2 1995 thru 1998 That vintage air cooled 911 would tug at your hands like no other car. Trust me, the new 911 steering feel doesnt even come close. 'We also owned a 1990 mazda miata that had non power rack and pinion steering... heavy around town but beautifully weighted and communicative once on the move. The ZCP M3 drives better than 99.9 percent of the cars on the road. Stop nit picking and enjoy it.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-29-2016, 06:03 AM	#25
Falafel Combo Banned 3773 Rep 6,673 Posts Drives: X5 xDrive50i Join Date: May 2011 Location: New England iTrader: (3)	We're not allowed to criticize the ZCP, until the M4 CS is released. Once that happens, you can trash the ZCP. But for now, it's still better than the civic M3, says everyone who got a deal. PS: personally, I don't miss the e92 steering one bit.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-30-2016, 01:28 AM	#26
vdude Private First Class 50 Rep 159 Posts Drives: F80 M3, E90 M3, E46 M3, E36 M3 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: LA iTrader: (6)	I currently own an E90 and F80 M3 (both with the comp package). For fun, my friends and I have done several back to back comparisons including fwy runs, canyons, Angeles Crest etc. I've put 50k miles on my E90 compared to 3k miles on the F80. I like the steering in the F80 and believe the claims that its one of the better electric systems on the market but think that the steering in my E90 is significantly better. BUT there are so many potential variables within the same gen car that comparing different gens is even more challenging. Here's some of the variables I experienced with my own E90: * Tires: I'm currently running RE-11s which provide significantly better steering response than the OE contis. Tires and pressures can make a big difference. * Alignment: About a year ago, I noticed a decline in the steering response and handling. I decided to get an alignment before investing in more costly alternatives. Lang Racing in Irvine did a special alignment based on the M3 CRT specs and it made a significant difference (a regular stock alignment could've also helped since the car went 3+ years without one) * Spacers: I'm currently running front and rear spacers. They initially caused intermittent steering vibrations based on speed and cornering loads (which went away after a good hub-cleaning/wheel re-torque. * Programming: I had Alex at Alpine program more steering effort (believe it was 10%-15% - only affects the most aggressive setting) - this IMO improved overall feel. Since my E90 is no longer stock, any one of the above variables could skew my opinion. Point is any of the above (and more variables including suspension wear, recency of comparison, conditions etc) could also affect the opinion of others. In any case here's my personal opinion of the E90 vs F80 steering based on back to back runs and daily driving in similar roads/conditions etc: -Feedback: * E90: It's hard to explain but the steering has subtle vibration changes that are variable based on suspension load, road texture so I get a sense of what the front wheels are doing at all times. * F80: The steering has a subtle vibration to communicate road feel but as good as it is in a straight line, when cornering hard I've always felt that there was an intangible difference compared to my E90 and E46. It took a few back to back canyon and mountain runs but I think I've figured it out. Despite the changes in road surface, traction, cornering loads etc the vibration frequency doesn't seem to change so it's harder to tell what the front wheels are doing. It's almost as if the feel is dare-I-say "simulated". Admittedly, I haven't explored the true limits of the F80 and might have a different opinion once I do. -Precision/Effort: * E90: The effort feels ideal (especially after the coding) and the steering feels very precise. I know the F80 is supposed to be more nimble but the way my E90 is setup makes it feel the opposite especially at low to moderate speeds * F80: The 3 settings provide good options based on preferred effort level. I prefer the sport setting for regular DD (similar in weight to my E90) but have my M1 programmed to Sport plus. While the ratio is quick and there is zero play in any setting, there seems to be a fair amount of filtering - if I recall correctly one review described it as "syrupy". This might be exagerated but after comparing both systems I think this is a way of describing the lack of mechanical feel that the electric systems have. Interested to learn more about what others think. __________________ F80 M3 / E90 M3 / E46 M3 / E36 M3 Last edited by vdude; 11-30-2016 at 02:15 AM..
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11-30-2016, 10:01 AM	#27
solstice Major General 5457 Rep 7,037 Posts Drives: 2015 M3 6MT Join Date: May 2013 Location: Seattle iTrader: (0)	To the OP you are right and it's a pity but the M3s EPS is one of the better and it's likely you will adapt as I have. You probably will never love the steering feel but it will be ok. There are other very good things about the car to make it highly enjoyable. To me the chassis and suspension ( I have the passive and it's pretty much perfect for my liking on a street car ) is the big event of this generation. With my E90 M3 the first I noticed when driving another car was how I missed the lovely stable front end and steering feel, with the F80 it is the taut chassis/suspension I miss when driving another car. Almost everything else on standard setup feels wobbly and or crashy in comparison. Last edited by solstice; 11-30-2016 at 10:11 AM..
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07-10-2019, 05:20 PM	#30
m3rman New Member 0 Rep 17 Posts Drives: BMW F80 Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: San Francisco iTrader: (0)	Completely agree with the video game/arcade style steering feel. It's the one thing that my old car (BRZ) does much better than the M3.
	Appreciate 0 Quote