M4 clutch rod failure leads to accident

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by EOS

I assure you it was the brake pedal, and the gas was never touched throughout this whole affair. Also I started it in reverse with the clutch fully depressed--something that has never caused an issue on the 3+ standards I've had throughout the years.

That's fine.

I mean, your story sounds pretty unbelievable and as you can see from most of the replies here people are going to be skeptical. It sounds pretty bogus if you ask me. You're essentially saying several physical systems failed at once while the electronically controlled throttle also failed simultaneously.

Not saying it's impossible but if it happened then you should go buy some lottery tickets.

The only thing that may be plausible is if the clutch catastrophically failed causing the throttle response (where the car gives throttle while engaging the clutch) was triggered and kept staying in the on position.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by GitToDeChoppah

So this car will provide some gas automatically when you let off the clutch. You can easily move forward from a stop without touching the gas or “riding the clutch”. Maybe the clutch broke somehow, which engaged the transmission and the car tried to keep from stalling by autonomously giving some gas. But that wouldn’t explain a rapid acceleration or the brakes not working. I don’t know

So this (or any other car that I am aware of) will not "automatically" give some gas when you let off the clutch*, rather due to gearing you can start and move pretty much any manual vehicle on flat ground with just (slowly) releasing the clutch. In this case there likely was some type of engagement (whether partial or full) due to the clutch pedal malfunction (missing "pin"). So when the vehicle was started (even with the clutch depressed) it totally makes sense that the car would move/lurch as it was in a gear and the car at least partially engaged as the clutch pedal was not functioning properly.

That said, as others have questioned, the parking brake and regular brakes should have made the vehicle stop and stall (or stall then stop) vice continuing to accelerate. What most likely happened is, yes there was an issue with the clutch hence the vehicle moving/lurching when started, but as it moved the owner accidentally depressed the accelerator instead of the brake (although he swears he hit the brakes) which caused further acceleration instead of stalling.

*Before anyone mentions rev match, I am referring from a start scenario already in gear, not downshift.

[rr006rbc]

So, I've been driving a manual for 15 years..including my current F80 and my last F80. I've never heard of such an absurd occurrence in all of my years of being in the automotive industry. Before any of that could have happened your engine would have simply stalled out. End of story. No more "spontaneous" acceleration or clutch engagement..

[Antartic]

I've used Advantage since 2010 (for purchase and service), yeah- they are not the best, but they do decent work. No one in the service department has been bad to deal with, and the service manager, for the most part, has been reasonable to me (helping with a few goodwill, out of warranty repairs).

Honestly, the story you put out is pretty unbelievable and that's why I think even the dealer is being very skeptical that it is a mechanical failure.

The F8x platform has been very reliable, and I've never heard of any issue remotely like what you describe. If you aren't making this up, the only thing I can think of is something malicious going on- someone may have screwed around with your clutch or brake lines.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by rr006rbc

So, I've been driving a manual for 15 years..including my current F80 and my last F80. I've never heard of such an absurd occurrence in all of my years of being in the automotive industry. Before any of that could have happened your engine would have simply stalled out. End of story. No more "spontaneous" acceleration or clutch engagement..

I have also driven manuals for around 10 years--this ain't my first rodeo--and I really wish this had stalled like a normal manual would. I cannot explain this occurrence, yet I am absolutely, 100 percent sure that the e brake was engaged throughout this affair, and the brakes were applied right before impact (again, it was something like 15 feet between the two cars, so it all happened very quickly). I, too, believe it may have had something to do with the system that autonomously gives it a bit of gas to prevent it from stalling, gone awry somehow, paired with the "pin" or "rod" failing. I've had the engine stall before in this car, and it simply did not on this occasion. I cannot explain it.

I will hopefully get more information soon on what precise component of the clutch actually failed.

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by EOS

I have also driven manuals for around 10 years--this ain't my first rodeo--and I really wish this had stalled like a normal manual would. I cannot explain this occurrence, yet I am absolutely, 100 percent sure that the e brake was engaged throughout this affair, and the brakes were applied right before impact (again, it was something like 15 feet between the two cars, so it all happened very quickly). I, too, believe it may have had something to do with the system that autonomously gives it a bit of gas to prevent it from stalling, gone awry somehow, paired with the "pin" or "rod" failing. I've had the engine stall before in this car, and it simply did not on this occasion. I cannot explain it.

I will hopefully get more information soon on what precise component of the clutch actually failed.

What doesn't make sense is that if your clutch "failed" it's going to stall out the car if you had just started it up and it wasn't moving.

You had to have applied a shit ton of gas for a "broken clutch" to spin up the transmission. You hit the gas, not the brake.

Unless our cars also have the infamous Toyota random acceleration issue (they don't).

[minn19]

We would need the other sides story to try and make sense of this. Otherwise it is just one word over somebody else's.

I'm sorry OP, but as many others have said, you are stating that many systems failed at once for this to occur. So most of us go to the most logical explanation that you accidently hit the gas instead of the brake. I know you said you are positive you hit the brake, but it wouldn't be the first or last time somebody was has done this and was "positive" about what occurred.

If you really think what happened was how you described then you aren't going to get any answers here. I would do what another poster advised you to do. And that is quit talking and get a lawyer. It is obvious you aren't going to get anywhere with Advantage BMW. Is BMW NA involved? If not then I would at least do that before going the lawyer route.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by Railgun

Again, lesson to be learned kiddies...don't start the car in gear.

There's no one that says it's not their first rodeo and yet starts their car in gear. That's just piss poor habits to get into.

Terrible situation, but completely preventable.

Y'all are incorrect. I did not hit the gas. Also, I have literally never heard that starting the car in gear with the clutch fully depressed can be an issue.

Thanks for your input; I can see you are not willing to conceive of the possibility that my particular car had a major issue.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by minn19

We would need the other sides story to try and make sense of this. Otherwise it is just one word over somebody else's.

I'm sorry OP, but as many others have said, you are stating that many systems failed at once for this to occur. So most of us go to the most logical explanation that you accidently hit the gas instead of the brake. I know you said you are positive you hit the brake, but it wouldn't be the first or last time somebody was has done this and was "positive" about what occurred.

If you really think what happened was how you described then you aren't going to get any answers here. I would do what another poster advised you to do. And that is quit talking and get a lawyer. It is obvious you aren't going to get anywhere with Advantage BMW. Is BMW NA involved? If not then I would at least do that before going the lawyer route.

Thank you. BMW NA and evidently a third party (undisclosed) is involved due to how seriously BMW NA is taking this situation. I am attempting to get security camera footage from my garage to corroborate this.

My impression was that some individuals on this forum would be willing to assist me here. A few have. Most have berated me and told me what factually occurred was impossible. Anyway, thank you for the portion of your post that was helpful.

[NickyC]

Insta head ache trying to understand what is going on here.

Best of luck OP, I have no idea what to make of your situation but I hope it all works out well for you.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by EOS

I, too, believe it may have had something to do with the system that autonomously gives it a bit of gas to prevent it from stalling, gone awry somehow, paired with the "pin" or "rod" failing.

I am not trying to gang up on the OP with this question whatsoever, but I really have never heard of such a system on our cars. Is there any type of "anti stall" system on the F80? I personnel popped the clutch accidentally in gear about a month ago and after a quick chirp of the tires the car stalled.

[JamesGames]

My dumbass has started a car in gear before with ebrake on , cold start, RPMS surge to 1500+ and basically clutch dumped it at that rpm because I thought I had took car out of gear. Car jumped forward maybe inches and stalled with ebrake on. For you to shoot that far forward against gravity / brakes on would probably have to take accelerator pedal. Not saying this happened to you but it could have very likely, especially when you say your car went UPHILL..

[heckyeahbro69]

How did the pedal feel when you pushed it in to start the car?

[allen3ybq]

If it were me, I wouldn't even wasting time posting; replying and explaining myself here again and again. I would have found the BEST LAWYER I could possibly find and afford and start a case with BMW already.
Good luck tho!

[EOS]

Originally Posted by JamesGames

My dumbass has started a car in gear before with ebrake on , cold start, RPMS surge to 1500+ and basically clutch dumped it at that rpm because I thought I had took car out of gear. Car jumped forward maybe inches and stalled with ebrake on. For you to shoot that far forward against gravity / brakes on would probably have to take accelerator pedal. Not saying this happened to you but it could have very likely, especially when you say your car went UPHILL..

Exactly. This is precisely what has happened before (one time when I was late to a meeting and forgot i hadn't pushed the start/stop when I parked it in gear with the e brake on). It didn't even touch the cement block at the end of the parking space (died before it hit it). This time, dropped the clutch (forgot it was in gear) and instead of dying, it roared to life and shot backward 15 feet with the e brake on and up a slight incline (the guy who saw it all happen examined the garage with me and we determined it was a slight incline--also, I usually coast into my space in neutral, meaning it has to be a slight incline). I could not engage the clutch because of whatever issue with the rod/pin.

The case with BMW is well underway, and the investigation is pending.

I am truly not sure if there is a nanny for preventing stalls. Maybe someone else can clarify this.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by heckyeahbro69

How did the pedal feel when you pushed it in to start the car?

Felt completely normal, not sticky or crunchy or anything--smooth and same amount of tension as always.

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by EOS

Exactly. This is precisely what has happened before (one time when I was late to a meeting and forgot i hadn't pushed the start/stop when I parked it in gear with the e brake on). It didn't even touch the cement block at the end of the parking space (died before it hit it). This time, dropped the clutch (forgot it was in gear) and instead of dying, it roared to life and shot backward 15 feet with the e brake on and up a slight incline (the guy who saw it all happen examined the garage with me and we determined it was a slight incline--also, I usually coast into my space in neutral, meaning it has to be a slight incline). I could not engage the clutch because of whatever issue with the rod/pin.

The case with BMW is well underway, and the investigation is pending.

I am truly not sure if there is a nanny for preventing stalls. Maybe someone else can clarify this.

Your original post states, "On August 26, the vehicle malfunctioned, the clutch fully went out (was hanging like a loose tooth),". Are you now saying that you dropped the clutch? Or that you had your foot depressed and the clutch malfunctioned which led to the events you're describing.

If you dropped the clutch (with vehicle at a standstill) the car is going to stall unless you (or the ghost in the throttle body / ECU) slammed on the gas instead of the brakes.

There have been so many times where people swear they hit the correct pedal only to be proven otherwise by black box recordings.

Either way, good luck. Should be a pretty open and shut case once BMWNA gets involved. They can pull your throttle / brake pedal positions right before the accident. Should tell them right then and there if what you're saying is true or not.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by aerostar

Your original post states, "On August 26, the vehicle malfunctioned, the clutch fully went out (was hanging like a loose tooth),". Are you now saying that you dropped the clutch? Or that you had your foot depressed and the clutch malfunctioned which led to the events you're describing.

If you dropped the clutch (with vehicle at a standstill) the car is going to stall unless you (or the ghost in the throttle body / ECU) slammed on the gas instead of the brakes.

There have been so many times where people swear they hit the correct pedal only to be proven otherwise by black box recordings.

Either way, good luck. Should be a pretty open and shut case once BMWNA gets involved. They can pull your throttle / brake pedal positions right before the accident. Should tell them right then and there if what you're saying is true or not.

Yeah what I am saying is that I dropped the clutch at a complete standstill, without my foot touching the throttle. I understand the black box will reveal everything.

The car started fine, and I dropped the clutch at a standstill, facing down a slight incline. Rather than dying, the engine roared to life and the clutch pedal had zero tension in it, such that I could not depress it again. I realize this sounds very unlikely (and it obviously is, or no one would buy these cars), it is factually what happened.

I am actually more concerned about learning how this could have happened, as my foot did not touch the gas pedal, than obtaining a successful result from my perspective regarding BMW NA.

I certainly don't think a ghost was involved, though I appreciate the humor. I am still nowhere closer to understanding why the car did not die when I dropped the clutch than I was when this whole thing started.

[dzvero]

Originally Posted by Antartic

Something doesn't sound right- the brakes are strong enough to overcome any acceleration. And multiple, unrelated failures seem very unlikely. I cannot make any sense of this thing.

Can you post a picture of the car, or the write-up the dealer did when you took it in?

I wonder why people always register new user to post problems like this... It says much more than the explanation EOS did

[EOS]

Originally Posted by dzvero

I wonder why people always register new user to post problems like this... It says much more than the explanation EOS did

It is clear you are implying I am lying. Therefore, I put your post in the basket of unhelpful posts. Thanks for playing.

I just got my M4 in April, work 50 plus hours a week, and generally do not have time to engage in these forums much. I do not have an alias account. Believe what you desire.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by dzvero

I wonder why people always register new user to post problems like this... It says much more than the explanation EOS did

Check my "join date"--April 20, 2018. If you are implying that I created a fraudulent account over 4 months before I was going to somehow defraud this forum, your contention is absurd.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by Railgun

So here's the clutch pedal (RHD).

If that c-clip failed, there would still need to be some lateral movement to work that pin loose. It's under tension, and even if the one side worked out, it's not going to be an instant catastrophic failure.

As you mentioned, they may have suggested pulling on the clutch pedal. I don't see how that's possible as you'd need to exert some serious force.

If they're potentially blaming you, something else was at play here.

Thanks very much. This is exceedingly helpful to know.

The status now is apparently that there has not been a determination (the third party is currently reviewing), and so BMW's "position" is that this was not a defect (I phrased it poorly when I said "user error," as I understand this to be more like an "innocent until proven guilty" think from BMW NA's perspective).