Ultimate Spun Crank Hub (SCH) Poll: ALL Members Please Vote!

[RedBaronG80]

Originally Posted by Nisse Järnet

So basically there is no real difference between 6MT and DCT when comparing all stats, but stock vs modified there is a clear difference!

I wonder if the real problem is just crank harmonics/vibration at higher power levels making the crank bolt coming loose?

Hmmmm, what a coincidence you say this the day after VAC launched the new harmonic balancer...

[Nisse Järnet]

Originally Posted by Yas///M3

Hmmmm, what a coincidence you say this the day after VAC launched the new harmonic balancer...

Haha i actually just saw that post after i wrote this! But this is a hot topic in the M50 stroker comunity, and has been for years.

Im using the OEM damper on my 840awhp M50, just because i thought the after market dampers for BMW is too expensive compared to like 2JZ :P

[Boostd4]

So this SCH issue almost mirrors the connecting rod issue that I faced in the R35 GTR world. Stock GTRs as well as cars with over 600-620wtq were windowing blocks.

It seems to me that it's a YMMV situation, and the risk of going to something like E85 is just going to pour gasoline on the fire.

Just an observation from a new F80 guy...but it seems like the data shows no definitive reason for the SCH.

[DannyRA]

Zero SCH issues with E85+Meth. Driven spirited for roughly 8 thousand miles.

[papasmurf_m3]

I've been following the spread of misinformation and fear mongering. So, I will weigh in my thoughts as a person who has built racing engines, tuned cars on my dyno, raced on a competitive level, & built many fast cars when I owned a shop. (BTW It was fun. But, I don't miss the shop life)

Take this with a grain of salt. It's just 1 guys opinion that is based on factual information, first and second hand experience, talking with my buddies who are E85 tuned stock hubs, talking with people who slipped. etc... But, you all know what they say about opinions.

Is this crank hub thing real? Yes, It is. But, that does not mean every car is a ticking time bomb. No, not even close to it. It comes down to how you are driving the car. Nobody has answers and people think it's this or that. Or the year or manual or dct. So let me explain.

I believe this is due to 2 simple things. High torque and low rpm. When you have massive torque at 2000 rpm that is what causes the bolt to back out and that loss of torque on the hub will allow the timing chain sprocket to slip. And it's a slip not spinning freely 360 degrees. It's ok to have high torque at higher rpm because the engine is spinning faster. But, not so much at low rpm. It's fun though. But, no bueno for that bolt from backing out.

Think about it logically for a moment. The timing sprocket is under load with heavy boost and cylinder pressures. Do you think the cylinder pressures are enough to hulka-maniac it's way through a fully torqued factory crank bolt? Like raaaawr & just take out your entire motor, just like that.... Really? I can see if the bolt backs out and you lose torque. But, not if it's fully torqued. Get outta here with that.


If you are tuned or even w/ high torque of the E85 and running stock crank hub. Just do these things to avoid an issue:

No burnouts, no doughnuts, no kickdowns, no launching, no downshift UNDER high torque. Lift of the gas and downshift all you want. Don't rip the car at low engine speeds and high torque. Get on it from a 50 roll 60 roll all day long. Have fun with rolls and higher speeds all day. Just be mindful.

If you wanna send it, If you are going 600 700 800 whp and a lot of torque, wanna do burnouts etc then just do a crank hub fix. They are all really good. They all do the same thing. It's the labor cost that will kill your wallet. That VTT V2 looks like a good option though. Because, it installs so easily. Much easier then the 2 or 4 pin. If they all do the same. Then my logic says. Go with the path of least resistance. Lighter on the wallet and simpler installation makes the most sense. 2 pin 4 pin are great too. Just a lot more work and messy. They work just fine too. It's your preference.

If you're stock, just send it! You're fine. Your motor is not going to blow up at any second. Get outta here with that too. But, I would be mindful.

Valves don't bend because of pistons hitting them. They bend from intake valve colliding with them. Then when bent enough the pistons comes up and snaps it off eventually. But, that can only really happen from very bad valve float and under extreme conditions.

I've seen some shops crank the bolt over and over when the car comes in with slipped hub. Why?? That is causing more damage. I would not do that. If the car is out of time. Don't do that. Just fix it.

For context. My car is stock. I'm just waiting for my parts to arrive. Probably stage 2 Ecutek e85 max effort tune to start things off. I drive the car and enjoy it. I have launched it before. Yes, I take it to canyons and backroads and really put this car through its paces as an all around sports sedan. The car see's a lot of 40 & 60 rolling start races. I have burned out a few times. As of lately I follow my guideline to the T.

I plan to run crank hub fix. Only because, I plan to send it with bigger turbos. So, i will do them at the same time. Most likely it will stay on stock turbos and follow the guidelines till then.

I'm going with the VTT V2 crank hub fix for it's quality. It works perfectly under high stress, easy to install and the most cost effective. No brainer.

I'm not ripping on any shops or companies. I'm just an enthusiast and just sick of every other post about the same thing. All this fear mongering and people genuinely getting stressed about their cars. That sucks & I think it's blown out of proportion.

If you're going to send it. Just put one on. Any of them. it doesn't matter. They all do the same thing.


(Was trying to edit some grammar and I accidentally deleted some stuff. I don't remember right now lol But, ya. This is the gist of it.)

Just my 2 cents guys.

Cheers,

Max-

[spuntyb]

Add me to the list.

2018 ZCP DCT with 35k total miles, JB4 (map 2, 93 octane), DPs, charge pipes. Had all of that installed by AutoCouture in North Jersey a little over a year ago, with about 22k miles on the car, so probably about 13k miles with that set up so far. Never had it dyno'd, so I voted for the 450-500 whp option.

Pulled out of a grocery store with all settings in efficient/comfort. Gave it a good throttle push and got up to about 40mph and it just revved hard and then kind of shuddered and gave me the drivetrain malfunction. I pulled it over and turned everything off. Popped the hood and nothing amiss in there. No smoke, oil, weird sounds or anything else. Got back in and tried to start it, it cranked fine, but only kind of turned over, and would shut itself down after about 10 seconds.

Had it towed to the shop, and got the call today about the SCH. They said it sounds pretty good, considering, and it seems like it's trying to compress, but they're going to inspect the cylinders and stuff to make sure there's no real damage. If so, they'll install the Gintani hub, and we'll go from there. If any real or extensive damage, may take down the mods, and bring to the dealer, as it's a lease - trying to avoid that though, obviously.

Fingers crossed!

[spuntyb]

Got the call today.

SCH. Cylinder 6 showed contact. Needs a new motor.

$18k (new motor with 7k miles + Gintani hub + labor), or take down the tune and roll the dice with the dealership

[Gunzy]

Terrible news. I'd at least take the tune off and see what they will do for you, if anything.

My car is waiting to head to the shop for intake cam code. No misfires at idle and fires right up. Hoping for the best. Happened at like 10 mph slowing down.

Let us know what you end up doing

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

Got the call today.

SCH. Cylinder 6 showed contact. Needs a new motor.

$18k (new motor with 7k miles + Gintani hub + labor), or take down the tune and roll the dice with the dealership

18k? Can you rebuild the motor?

You can try to flash back to stock but any warranty work that requires a significant amount of money will require corporate approval and remote session.

Once they plug in the e-sys, they will know it has been tuned.

[JSal335is]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

Got the call today.

SCH. Cylinder 6 showed contact. Needs a new motor.

$18k (new motor with 7k miles + Gintani hub + labor), or take down the tune and roll the dice with the dealership

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

18k? Can you rebuild the motor?

You can try to flash back to stock but any warranty work that requires a significant amount of money will require corporate approval and remote session.

Once they plug in the e-sys, they will know it has been tuned.

I'm going to say an additional prayer tonight for you spuntyb and hope the tragedy works out for the best for you. Keep us posted.

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by Gunzy

Terrible news. I'd at least take the tune off and see what they will do for you, if anything.

My car is waiting to head to the shop for intake cam code. No misfires at idle and fires right up. Hoping for the best. Happened at like 10 mph slowing down.

Let us know what you end up doing

I'm hoping the best for you man. Let us know the outcome. I'm sorry to hear, but it at least sounds like you're in good shape!

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

18k? Can you rebuild the motor?

You can try to flash back to stock but any warranty work that requires a significant amount of money will require corporate approval and remote session.

Once they plug in the e-sys, they will know it has been tuned.

Honestly, I've had a plan in place since I decided to tune the car. I read up on the crank hub issue, and read as many stories about people's experiences as I could find. I went into it with open eyes and a $ reserve. Rebuilding the motor is definitely an option, and part of me wants to just take the tune down, bring it to my dealer (Park Ave in NJ), and see what they will do, if anything. But that's also a gamble, and it puts BMWNA in the driver's seat, so to speak. Plus it means no car for likely weeks and weeks. My smiles/$ ratio goes way down, even if it *potentially* saves me money in the long run.

I don't know the right answer, but after thinking about the different possibilities for the last week, and talking with Matt@AutoCouture, I gave them the go ahead to do the work. I get the car back this week, a new motor, a new hub, and my tune. I may talk with him today and just ask to do the new motor, but keep the stock hub, and run stock, no tune. I know people have re-spun their hubs, and honestly, if it happened again...f*ck. The lease matures next summer, so it might be best to just call it a day. But then people have spun their hubs running stock, so...

[M3Meh]

Question, Can the GTS flash to the gearbox on a stock car (no tune) possibly cause a SCH? or is it only a tune that increases chances of a SCH? My car is a non comp F80.

[Graves]

I'm gonna put a CBC on mine and put the BM3 stage 1 93 on it. Fawk it.

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

I've been following the spread of misinformation and fear mongering. So, I will weigh in my thoughts as a person who has built racing engines, tuned cars on my dyno, raced on a competitive level, & built many fast cars when I owned a shop. (BTW It was fun. But, I don't miss the shop life)

Take this with a grain of salt. It's just 1 guys opinion that is based on factual information, first and second hand experience, talking with my buddies who are E85 tuned stock hubs, talking with people who slipped. etc... But, you all know what they say about opinions.

Is this crank hub thing real? Yes, It is. But, that does not mean every car is a ticking time bomb. No, not even close to it. It comes down to how you are driving the car. Nobody has answers and people think it's this or that. Or the year or manual or dct. So let me explain.

I believe this is due to 2 simple things. High torque and low rpm. When you have massive torque at 2000 rpm that is what causes the bolt to back out and that loss of torque on the hub will allow the timing chain sprocket to slip. And it's a slip not spinning freely 360 degrees. It's ok to have high torque at higher rpm because the engine is spinning faster. But, not so much at low rpm. It's fun though. But, no bueno for that bolt from backing out.

Think about it logically for a moment. The timing sprocket is under load with heavy boost and cylinder pressures. Do you think the cylinder pressures are enough to hulka-maniac it's way through a fully torqued factory crank bolt? Like raaaawr & just take out your entire motor, just like that.... Really? I can see if the bolt backs out and you lose torque. But, not if it's fully torqued. Get outta here with that.


If you are tuned or even w/ high torque of the E85 and running stock crank hub. Just do these things to avoid an issue:

No burnouts, no doughnuts, no kickdowns, no launching, no downshift UNDER high torque. Lift of the gas and downshift all you want. Don't rip the car at low engine speeds and high torque. Get on it from a 50 roll 60 roll all day long. Have fun with rolls and higher speeds all day. Just be mindful.

If you wanna send it, If you are going 600 700 800 whp and a lot of torque, wanna do burnouts etc then just do a crank hub fix. They are all really good. They all do the same thing. It's the labor cost that will kill your wallet. That VTT V2 looks like a good option though. Because, it installs so easily. Much easier then the 2 or 4 pin. If they all do the same. Then my logic says. Go with the path of least resistance. Lighter on the wallet and simpler installation makes the most sense. 2 pin 4 pin are great too. Just a lot more work and messy. They work just fine too. It's your preference.

If you're stock, just send it! You're fine. Your motor is not going to blow up at any second. Get outta here with that too. But, I would be mindful.

Valves don't bend because of pistons hitting them. They bend from intake valve colliding with them. Then when bent enough the pistons comes up and snaps it off eventually. But, that can only really happen from very bad valve float and under extreme conditions.

I've seen some shops crank the bolt over and over when the car comes in with slipped hub. Why?? That is causing more damage. I would not do that. If the car is out of time. Don't do that. Just fix it.

For context. My car is stock. I'm just waiting for my parts to arrive. Probably stage 2 Ecutek e85 max effort tune to start things off. I drive the car and enjoy it. I have launched it before. Yes, I take it to canyons and backroads and really put this car through its paces as an all around sports sedan. The car see's a lot of 40 & 60 rolling start races. I have burned out a few times. As of lately I follow my guideline to the T.

I plan to run crank hub fix. Only because, I plan to send it with bigger turbos. So, i will do them at the same time. Most likely it will stay on stock turbos and follow the guidelines till then.

I'm going with the VTT V2 crank hub fix for it's quality. It works perfectly under high stress, easy to install and the most cost effective. No brainer.

I'm not ripping on any shops or companies. I'm just an enthusiast and just sick of every other post about the same thing. All this fear mongering and people genuinely getting stressed about their cars. That sucks & I think it's blown out of proportion.

If you're going to send it. Just put one on. Any of them. it doesn't matter. They all do the same thing.


(Was trying to edit some grammar and I accidentally deleted some stuff. I don't remember right now lol But, ya. This is the gist of it.)

Just my 2 cents guys.

Cheers,

Max-

What's your view on capture plates, rather than replacing the full crank hub assembly? I.e: https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/bmw...crank-hub-fix/

It sounds like this is good enough to implement and prevent a spin (providing you haven't already been subject to it).

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

What's your view on capture plates, rather than replacing the full crank hub assembly? I.e: https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/bmw...crank-hub-fix/

It sounds like this is good enough to implement and prevent a spin (providing you haven't already been subject to it).

I don't necessarily have a specific view, but there are two weak points to the hub: the bolt inside, which the CBC would address, and keep it from backing out. However, the stock hub is two pieces held together by a friction washer, which could itself break, and cause a spin, especially if your bolt has already started backing out. CBC wouldn't prevent that. The presumption by many here is that most/all failures are due to the bolt backing out in some way, so a CBC seems like a reasonable choice to reduce concern, but it won't prevent a slip from the washer giving out if your bolt has already loosened or started backing out. Only way to address both would be an upgraded hub and CBC together.

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

I don't necessarily have a specific view, but there are two weak points to the hub: the bolt inside, which the CBC would address, and keep it from backing out. However, the stock hub is two pieces held together by a friction washer, which could itself break, and cause a spin, especially if your bolt has already started backing out. CBC wouldn't prevent that. The presumption by many here is that most/all failures are due to the bolt backing out in some way, so a CBC seems like a reasonable choice to reduce concern, but it won't prevent a slip from the washer giving out if your bolt has already loosened or started backing out. Only way to address both would be an upgraded hub and CBC together.

Unless you are pushing serious power with aftermarket turbos + e85, I don't think an average person would need an upgraded crank hub.

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

Add me to the list.

2018 ZCP DCT with 35k total miles, JB4 (map 2, 93 octane), DPs, charge pipes. Had all of that installed by AutoCouture in North Jersey a little over a year ago, with about 22k miles on the car, so probably about 13k miles with that set up so far. Never had it dyno'd, so I voted for the 450-500 whp option.

Pulled out of a grocery store with all settings in efficient/comfort. Gave it a good throttle push and got up to about 40mph and it just revved hard and then kind of shuddered and gave me the drivetrain malfunction. I pulled it over and turned everything off. Popped the hood and nothing amiss in there. No smoke, oil, weird sounds or anything else. Got back in and tried to start it, it cranked fine, but only kind of turned over, and would shut itself down after about 10 seconds.

Had it towed to the shop, and got the call today about the SCH.

Fingers crossed!

I have the same mods - now I am worried

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

I have the same mods - now I am worried

Plenty of folks with these same mods with no issues over many thousands of miles.

That said, the best bet theory is to just get a crank bolt capture placed, since the bolt backing out seems to be the major cause of most failures. I personally don't think it's foolproof, based on the design of the stock hub, but those with more experience than I feel the CBC is probably all you need.

If I were to buy out my lease next year, I would slap one on and call it a day fwiw

[SickGTR]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

I've been following the spread of misinformation and fear mongering. So, I will weigh in my thoughts as a person who has built racing engines, tuned cars on my dyno, raced on a competitive level, & built many fast cars when I owned a shop. (BTW It was fun. But, I don't miss the shop life)

Take this with a grain of salt. It's just 1 guys opinion that is based on factual information, first and second hand experience, talking with my buddies who are E85 tuned stock hubs, talking with people who slipped. etc... But, you all know what they say about opinions.

Is this crank hub thing real? Yes, It is. But, that does not mean every car is a ticking time bomb. No, not even close to it. It comes down to how you are driving the car. Nobody has answers and people think it's this or that. Or the year or manual or dct. So let me explain.

I believe this is due to 2 simple things. High torque and low rpm. When you have massive torque at 2000 rpm that is what causes the bolt to back out and that loss of torque on the hub will allow the timing chain sprocket to slip. And it's a slip not spinning freely 360 degrees. It's ok to have high torque at higher rpm because the engine is spinning faster. But, not so much at low rpm. It's fun though. But, no bueno for that bolt from backing out.

Think about it logically for a moment. The timing sprocket is under load with heavy boost and cylinder pressures. Do you think the cylinder pressures are enough to hulka-maniac it's way through a fully torqued factory crank bolt? Like raaaawr & just take out your entire motor, just like that.... Really? I can see if the bolt backs out and you lose torque. But, not if it's fully torqued. Get outta here with that.


If you are tuned or even w/ high torque of the E85 and running stock crank hub. Just do these things to avoid an issue:

No burnouts, no doughnuts, no kickdowns, no launching, no downshift UNDER high torque. Lift of the gas and downshift all you want. Don't rip the car at low engine speeds and high torque. Get on it from a 50 roll 60 roll all day long. Have fun with rolls and higher speeds all day. Just be mindful.

If you wanna send it, If you are going 600 700 800 whp and a lot of torque, wanna do burnouts etc then just do a crank hub fix. They are all really good. They all do the same thing. It's the labor cost that will kill your wallet. That VTT V2 looks like a good option though. Because, it installs so easily. Much easier then the 2 or 4 pin. If they all do the same. Then my logic says. Go with the path of least resistance. Lighter on the wallet and simpler installation makes the most sense. 2 pin 4 pin are great too. Just a lot more work and messy. They work just fine too. It's your preference.

If you're stock, just send it! You're fine. Your motor is not going to blow up at any second. Get outta here with that too. But, I would be mindful.

Valves don't bend because of pistons hitting them. They bend from intake valve colliding with them. Then when bent enough the pistons comes up and snaps it off eventually. But, that can only really happen from very bad valve float and under extreme conditions.

I've seen some shops crank the bolt over and over when the car comes in with slipped hub. Why?? That is causing more damage. I would not do that. If the car is out of time. Don't do that. Just fix it.

For context. My car is stock. I'm just waiting for my parts to arrive. Probably stage 2 Ecutek e85 max effort tune to start things off. I drive the car and enjoy it. I have launched it before. Yes, I take it to canyons and backroads and really put this car through its paces as an all around sports sedan. The car see's a lot of 40 & 60 rolling start races. I have burned out a few times. As of lately I follow my guideline to the T.

I plan to run crank hub fix. Only because, I plan to send it with bigger turbos. So, i will do them at the same time. Most likely it will stay on stock turbos and follow the guidelines till then.

I'm going with the VTT V2 crank hub fix for it's quality. It works perfectly under high stress, easy to install and the most cost effective. No brainer.

I'm not ripping on any shops or companies. I'm just an enthusiast and just sick of every other post about the same thing. All this fear mongering and people genuinely getting stressed about their cars. That sucks & I think it's blown out of proportion.

If you're going to send it. Just put one on. Any of them. it doesn't matter. They all do the same thing.


(Was trying to edit some grammar and I accidentally deleted some stuff. I don't remember right now lol But, ya. This is the gist of it.)

Just my 2 cents guys.

Cheers,

Max-

I agree 100000%. When I went flex fuel/ small turbo upgrade on my GTR, Sean told me DO NOT BE IN A HIGH GEAR, LOW RPM AND FLOOR IT. That will break shit. I was on stock block at the time. I had that tune for about a year and 5000 miles. Beat the shit out of it and no issues. Until the tranny exploded =)
I think it was around 630-640 TQ. Sorry to hear about your motor bud. F the dealer and go somewhere and have it built for cheaper

[papasmurf_m3]

Originally Posted by SickGTR

I agree 100000%. When I went flex fuel/ small turbo upgrade on my GTR, Sean told me DO NOT BE IN A HIGH GEAR, LOW RPM AND FLOOR IT. That will break shit. I was on stock block at the time. I had that tune for about a year and 5000 miles. Beat the shit out of it and no issues. Until the tranny exploded =)
I think it was around 630-640 TQ. Sorry to hear about your motor bud. F the dealer and go somewhere and have it built for cheaper

Thanks bro! Ya Even facelift GTR trans blow after that 650 wtq mark or rods start bending. But people still push them and don't blow well maybe some LoL.

My motor is fine didn't spin the hub. I'm just sharing my thoughts on it. I have the VTT V2 complete crank hub solution with CBC. Now I can launch doughnut or whatever lol.

But, thank you for the kind words anyways my friend!

[SickGTR]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

Thanks bro! Ya Even facelift GTR trans blow after that 650 wtq mark or rods start bending. But people still push them and don't blow well maybe some LoL.

My motor is fine didn't spin the hub. I'm just sharing my thoughts on it. I have the VTT V2 complete crank hub solution with CBC. Now I can launch doughnut or whatever lol.

But, thank you for the kind words anyways my friend!

No problem homie. Yeah, I blew 4th gear and trashed my GTR tranny. I always was planning on building it, so I just did it then=) So far, it's been bulletproof, knock on wood. LOL. It's hard to explain to people how fast they are! Rolling launch is insane. I'm just jealous of the guys with 1600 HP!! But they seem to need way more maint at those levels for obvious reasons