savagegeese F80 M3 review - "One of the best things BMW has done in modern history"

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

M2s aren't any lighter than F80s. They may look smaller but that's it.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1003735

^ M3 with carbon ceramics and 1/2 tank less fuel is lighter than an M4. Both DCT.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1077612

^ 34xx for an F80, 19s, manual, extended leather, empty tank.

I know we've gone through this before as why I said "maybe" an M3. Sorry, I'm not buying a 34xx pound M3 unless things have been stripped/modded and possibly empty of all fluids.

If my base M4 CS would've barely got there with an empty tank and substituting the DCT weight for the lighter MT.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by ZeCP

Great review for the geeks out there but I still don't get his point. He says its the best car in its sector and objectively better than the E92 in every way. Having owned both I would agree with his statement but this whole "emotional connection" stuff is rubbish IMO.

Emotional connection to a car is totally subjective there is no single car that if 100 people were to drive it each and everyone would make some kind of romantic bond to it. Everyone has different wants and needs from a car and some people might find the F8x much more of a car to connect to than the E92. Where as others might find more of a connection to a mini cooper than they would to say a 911 GT3, its all subjective.
Me personally I found them both to be about the same in that respect.

You are correct that "emotional connection" is totally subjective. But if enough people complain about it there has to be truth to it. I don't think I've read a single review/comparison test that didn't mention the lack of steering feedback in the F8X chassis. The car feels so refined...to a fault.

[8_is_enough]

Accurate review IMO. I admit I chose the F80 more on logic than emotion when it replaced my E92 (more power, faster, arguably more reliable, and more efficient). And that's why I still have it four years later -- there isn't another car in its class that checks all the same boxes, not to mention available with a manual.

Overall, I don't love the car or find the driving experience very thrilling, but I appreciate its well-roundedness and engineering.

[henrylee]

It's the evolution of cars.

[No.401_Speed]

There is a familiar refrain in the comments of an Autocar & Motor review of the E36 M3 published way back in 1992 with those posted by Mark in his Savage Geese video.

You be the judge and when reading this writer's impressions, substitute the obvious emotional attachments he had to the E30 M3 with those expressed by Mark for his E92 in comparison with the F80. The pattern is repeated and the points virtually identical. Then place these into the context of your personal experiences and emotional responses to the F80/F82.

"The self-conscious '90s call for purity of line to replace the bulging be-winged machismo that so distinguished the M3 in the carefree '80s.

Take another look at that gear lever. M3s used to put first, not fifth, out on its own, in classic racing style. No more. It's a small point, especially as BMW says a conventional layout is the more popular, but it is significant.

Anyone who has driven the latest 3 Series will feel at home as immediately as any old M3 driver will feel alienated. I struggled to see the difference between this and the 325i Coupe that had been my transport for the previous week. Where was the thrill, that raw seam of inspiration that, in M3s of yore, captured your heart and mind as soon as you saw the car and didn't let go until you were safely home again?

It may have six cylinders, but the heart and soul of the M3 lives and breathes in this engine as much as ever before....but, the same cannot be said for the chassis and steering. The old M3's precision, it's essence of all that is good in a racing car's chassis distilled into a civilized road machine, is gone.

The M3 has missed the point. It is not the first car to mistake pace for pleasure and it will surely not be the last, but if you expect it to encapsulate the spirit of the true road racer as it's forerunner did so well, you are likely to be disappointed. I know I was."

I've seen this pattern throughout my lifetime. Some folks just can't let go of the past and acknowledge that modern applications of tech are better, while being a bit more sterile, than previous designs. We can expect that similar comments have been made as each new generation of M3 hit the show room floor.

I take my driving cues from my eyes and the seat of my pants and don't quite understand the mysticism surrounding steering wheel feedback. OK, I'm an amateur, I don't race cars for a living, so maybe I've never gained that insight. But if each generation of M3 has "lost" something of it's predecessor, then why is the F80/F82 so vastly superior to the original E30 M3. I once watched a documentary of an old M2000 fighter pilot bemoaning the lack of "feel" from his new F16 Falcon, so it's a common refrain.

Frankly, this is precisely the reason that I opted to purchase a modern, state of the art sports coupe versus spending bags of money rescuing a 1960-1970's muscle car. I prefer modern tech to old. In that the Savage Geese review devoted so much time praising the technical precision of the car and then had to revert to criticizing the car on the basis of the psychology of the experience and digging very deep to compare it to a Hellcat, well, that just spoke to me as having too few things to complain about.

It's a great car boys, it's unique, beautifully styled and expertly engineered and yes, one day you too will be able to draw comparisons to the F80/F82 when judging the G80's lack of feedback, sterile driving experience and loss of driver focus at BMW. I say, bring it on (just ditch that ugly grill!!)

[Humdizzle]

^ yup. pretty much every generation of M3 has had diminished feedback.

I drove an e36 M3 for 4 years before moving up to an E46 M3. The first thing I thought was 'wow they are really over assisting this power steering now'. But those thought vanished with how complete a car it was over the e36, literally everything else was a step up.

same thing with the GTR.. in 2008 everyone said it was 'videogamey and numb' in steering feel. Now reviewers praise it for being one of the last sports cars with a hydraulic rack.

[shortseller]

A key point, I appreciated was the comment that the cars are now made for a completely different buyer. For the most part, the over 50 crowd and the young affluent, and these two groups mainly want comfort over feeling the ride. At least that’s what I see driving around my area, often making me wonder and just shaking my head, when did this happen. LOL.

I really love my ‘18 M3CP(its my 4th BMW over many years) but I’m completely ready for it to be my last if my next buying experience, test drive, becomes even “more” less enthusiastic than my prior auto experience. Frankly who knows, with technology taking such a big part in auto production, my 2018 might be a last swan song that approaches a driver’s experience, that could far exceed anything on cars lots in the future, eg Porsche, Benz, Audi and even BMW included. Here’s to hoping not, but as technology never stands still and attractively makes our lives comfortable and likely more sterile, I’m not holding my breath. Then again, someone might surprise me!

[shu5892001]

Originally Posted by THEROK

Youtube is your friend.

The dude in the glasses nailed it. The F8X authentically appeals to those who really care to appreciate the motorsport derived and engineered details throughout.

Sure the C63, RS4, Guila Q, RCF are also wonderful cars, but none of them come close to the durability and reliability of the F8X. It's a huge loss for BMW M fans that Biermann moved over to Hyundai-Kia.

It's too bad he picked the ugliest wheel setup possible on any modern BMW. RVs would be jealous of that aesthetic.

Agree with all cars listed except for the durability and reliability of the RCF. The RCF has the same engine and trans as the IS-F which many owners have over 150k+ miles on them. Many of them tuned as well.

[ASAP]

His main hate on the m2c was it was too squirrely and kicked the back end out too much...

Whilst Chris Harris who is a far better driver and reviewer found it one of its greatest traits and called it the best current m car.

Personally owning an M2C... i think its a dead on mix with how fun, controllble and trackable it is...

YMMV

[phoenixbmwlife]

I don't watch all his reviews, Im a bit indifferent but sometimes he's spot on. He is very critical but remember it is his opinion from his own perspective.

Anyway the funniest part is when he said his friend sent him a picture of the new M3/4 front uncovered and he almost puked in this head lol

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

That headline to this thread misleading. It's one line out of a nearly 30 minute review.

I thought he hit the nail on the head with this review. Objectively you can't argue with how good the F8X is. But for those of us used to the E9X chassis, this car feels sterile and overly refined. At the end he summed it up correctly: the overwhelming majority of people don't want to feel any feedback through the steering. The M3/4, while a niche vehicle technically, still sells in the tens of thousands over the course of its lifespan. They consciously chose to dial out that "visceral" driving feeling that always defined BMW. What's left is a car that is objectively great on paper but subjectively somewhat boring.

At least they made the point of stating this problem isn't unique to BMW. Even modern Porsches are subjectively less "fun" than they used to be.

+1, every-time he has done a BMW review, this forum posts one misleading line as the title of a video in which is mostly panned/reviewed as not bad but not great.

Take the Z4 for example, in reference to autocross he says the Z4 30i is better as you are chasing the tail less. The forum's title for the post "The Z4 is a Better Driver's Car than the M2 - Savagesse"

A lot of F80 owners aren't gonna like hearing what he says after they think that the video is all praise for the vehicle based on the title.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

True. It seems like comparison tests have picked the Giulia Quadrofoglio over the F80, but I don't believe the Giulia offers a stick shift. On top of the that interior is a notch below in quality, reliability is questionable, and the dealership experience is sad. i was at an Alfa dealer yesterday that and it felt like an old Dodge showroom with a couple Alfas and Maseratis thrown in.

Yeah the dealership experience and reliability is questionable. In my area, we have two Alfa dealers with incredibly different experiences. One is an FCA type w/ Dodge, Jeep etc, and you get treated like a Hyundai customer. The other one is farther, but is a Maserati/Porsche/Alfa dealer and the service there is much better. It seems many areas have the FCA Alfa dealers instead. There are some good alfa dealers, but they are limited in numbers.

I'd love to lease a Giulia QF, but the lack of a manual and reliability does concern me, seems like the 4-cylinder models are less problematic, but I do wish they offered a mid-trim V6 model to go against the C43 and M340.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Pic18

Although in the end he admitted it is a great car, i found it interesting that he mentioned in the middle of the video he preferred something with a bit of "drama" (or something to that effect) and has character (i.e. is not necessarily easy to drive, but rewarding). Then he went on to explain how the F80 can be tail happy (the definition of Drama) and a challenge to drive.

So basically he said he didn't like the F80 because lacked character and drama, but mentioned the drama of driving it.

I think he was more referring to the drama of just trying to drive it easily, as he mentioned it was too tail happy under normal conditions, being difficult to smoothly drive it in comparison to the NA engines of the past which offer more control due to the torque coming in later.

In the end I think he really just wants a more connected experience. Got to also remember, he was a previous E92 M3 owner, so in a sense, he sees the F8X as a car that while a jack of all trades, doesn't seem to master the ones that previous versions did, such as smoothness of the NA engine, connection to the vehicle and road, and steering, overall presenting a downgrade and more numb driving experience.

[THEROK]

Originally Posted by shu5892001

Agree with all cars listed except for the durability and reliability of the RCF. The RCF has the same engine and trans as the IS-F which many owners have over 150k+ miles on them. Many of them tuned as well.

Not quite the same, but I know what you mean. I've owned both.

It's almost a given that Lexus/Toyota vehicles are the most reliable on the planet. RCF bought new. The diff aka TVD began to make groaning noises about 15K miles in. Dealer wouldn't touch it because my ride was lowered on Ohlins plus exhaust. I promptly sold it and swore to never buy a Lexus product again, thus back in an M car.

And I'd conjecture that the RCF's V8 or trans would overheat multiple laps in whereas the S55/dct would not.

[Sedan_Clan]

...and people said this generation of ///M would be rubbish. Funny how the opinion has swayed over the years, as usual.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

...and people said this generation of ///M would be rubbish. Funny how the opinion has swayed over the years, as usual.

Love it!

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

dude is extremely critical of everything. but I like how in depth he gets.

every M car has been different and you have to make trade offs. I think the F80, while not the most thrilling or exciting car to drive, is probably the best sporty/luxury DD on the market. 4 doors, manual, rwd… and comes in at 34-3500 pounds. I don't think any other company has a car like it. Maybe caddy but... ats-v is meh.

Agreed. It's a tough 4 door sedan to beat imho. It's kind of perfect for the $

[Serious]

Funny how these cars are always "trash" until they depreciate to half their original value then the "enthusiasts" finally come around to them being good right before their is a new model to hate on.

[Salespunk]

For the people that don't understand the emotion and feedback responses need to understand how the M Division has evolved.

The original M3 was built only so they could go racing, thats it. Driver comfort and daily use were not even a consideration and the sales of the E30 M3 reflected that. It was actually much more similar to the M4 GTS because even though only a limited number of cars were built, many were still sitting on dealer lots 2 years later.

With the E36 and equivalent M5 BMW saw that they could build a profitable business around halo cars and this was pretty revolutionary in the automotive business. Prior to that time most of the high end performance vehicles were loss leaders and Porsche was on the verge of bankruptcy. With the E36 BMW built a performance car that could actually be daily driven by a person with a 9 to 5 job. Unfortunately this also meant that compromises had to be made as well making it not as pure as the original E30 version.

Fast forward to current times and you can see how BMW has sterilized their M division cars to widen the appeal. They try to rectify this by offering cars like the GTS version, but it is still built on the same basic architecture as a standard 3 series which means it ends up with less feedback/driver involvement. In the standard M3/M4 they put in just enough performance/involvement to stay ahead of MB/Audi, but not so much as to limit the appeal as a daily driver. This is a very solid business decision and model that has proven successful over the long term.

The people on this board represent the fringes of M division buyers and not the core. Most of the others don't care about steering feel or soul, they want a fast and luxurious daily.

[PARTS@STBMW]

Thanks for sharing!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

True. It seems like comparison tests have picked the Giulia Quadrofoglio over the F80, but I don't believe the Giulia offers a stick shift. On top of the that interior is a notch below in quality, reliability is questionable, and the dealership experience is sad. i was at an Alfa dealer yesterday that and it felt like an old Dodge showroom with a couple Alfas and Maseratis thrown in.

I'd pick an ARGQ over the F80 for a day simply because it's new and I want to try it. For ownership though, F80. Who wants to park your car at a Dodge dealership when you could be out driving it? Who want's to worry about calling a tow truck everytime you go out into the canyons? I think I've seen one Alpha on the local tracks this season. I've seen dozens of F8X's.

[DanMpower]

Damn with that wheel selection it does make the M3 look like a regular 3 series. Yikes.

I also find my E92 M3 more sterile than my F80. The E92 feels quieter, cushier and more insulated from the outside world. The F80 feels raw, harsher with "right now" controls and response, it almost makes my E92 feel lazy.

"soul" and "feel" is such a subjective matter, I find my F80 absolutely the most thrilling ride compared to my E92 M3 and E39 M5.