Bimmerworld GT-More

[JamesClay]

Originally Posted by m4forum

I am just cautions to distinguish when some updates bring a real benefit or just a "sales speech". For the engine oil, coolant, diff oil and transmission I am very skeptical to accept RedLine has a better product than OEM.

TOTALLY. On this one point. In fact that is our biggest challenge in spreading the word on good solutions in the oil industry - 98% of what's out there is all marketing! And the company with the largest marketing budget is the one people hear the most.

Why is this frustrating to us? Because we sell Red Line Oil and want to sell more of it? Sure. But I have been buying and using Red Line for 24+ years in my BMWs - long before I sold my first drop, and long before I had a relationship with them. But maybe most importantly, long enough to have had multiple engine programs with controlled data samples over engine lifespan of 30+ identical engines with multiple oil brands. And that's the frustrating part - I see the differences and know why I like what we use, and now have even more insight into how it's all made and the industry works - but the person with the most marketing budget is enough to drown out that message sometimes.

Speaking of marketing messages and budgets - it's worth recognizing that every deal in the industry has some of this in there. Did Castrol stop making the perfect oil for a BMW engine when their logo came off the cap and was replaced with Shell/Penzoil? And is there something unique about US-model BMW engines that makes one brand better here than it is on the same car in Europe (no - it's not the fuel difference....). Or is there a chance that a driving factor is marketing budgets and a deal on the cost of bulk oil on the four years of included service for every car purchase in the US?

But that aside, even without knowing all the specifics of a deal behind the scenes or a specific fluid, I can with absolute certainty say that the Group V base stocks that are the foundation of the Red Line Race and Performance oils (some other brands use them too in limited products - Motul 300V) are both superior and certainly more expensive than the Group III and Group IV used by the majority of manufacturer-branded products - as well as Red Line Professional series - a line specifically started to compete with that level of quality.

Next is transmission fluid. I swear that I never wanted to touch an automatic transmission fluid fill until we had to start racing cars with autos - every one seemed to be a problem. But there are a lot of factors to that, and my sample data was old transmissions that had never had the fluid changed - not ideal. But once we started racing them and had temperature issues to resolve, we again looked to RLO for a solution - and got it. And I felt good enough about it that when we got new GT4 cars several years ago, we drained all the factory fluids after dyno break-in and started with RLO from the outset - and risked some level of warranty as a result. But I felt pretty good about it when we were the only team that wasn't running into a limp level of temps at Sebring that year in the trans....

Not a shock though, because the RLO DCT-F came on my radar when they started supplying one of the Vegas driving experience businesses with the same - in a brutal environment of Vegas temps and exotic cars being treated like continuously-operating amusement rides by guys that have no idea how to drive them.

But RLO isn't always the answer for me. When we were racing E92 M3s, Red Line didn't have a fluid that worked as well as the factory stuff - and we ran BMW fluid and told customers to run it. But a few years later, after a bunch of development and testing (lab, dyno, market, our own cars), Red Line did launch an MTL-V that does work in other marques and models, but specifically came about due to the need to have a fluid for that application. And it does run lower temps, and I do like it better now than other options.

I rarely make time for long forum posts these days, and I'm going to cut myself off. But please do recognize that there are far more factors than performance that dictate what is designated or branded as a factory oil - not the least of which is cost or other financial points. And certainly performance in the elevated "hard use" environment many of us live in that is definitely not typical, average, or designed use - take note of that statement when you see it later with a rod bearing claim denial So if you are really looking for a product to meet the needs of an enthusiast like us - it probably isn't the same thing.

And we don't willy-nilly recommend fluids nor any other part or product on this car/project, or any other - we've been practicing what we preach and monitoring closely in the harshest environments for years now.

[RugbyBro]

JamesClay thanks for putting this series together! Looking forward to more episodes

[SYT_Shadow]

Thank you so much JamesClay both for the GTMore project and great vids and for sharing some of your knowledge

Can't wait to see where you take this project!

[adc]

Subscribing…


I have a feeling their solutions will cost $$ and may not be fully suitable for a street/track hybrid, but let’s stay informed and give them a chance to shine.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by adc

Subscribing…


I have a feeling their solutions will cost $$ and may not be fully suitable for a street/track hybrid, but let’s stay informed and give them a chance to shine.

The whole point is a streetable track car. No full cage, no crazy weight stripping. What a dedicated, hardcore person could drive to/from the track

Of course it will cost plenty of money. You pay to play, and serious speed requires serious money. I look forward to how far they can take a streetable M3

[JamesClay]

Originally Posted by adc

I have a feeling their solutions will cost $$ and may not be fully suitable for a street/track hybrid, but let’s stay informed and give them a chance to shine.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The whole point is a streetable track car. No full cage, no crazy weight stripping. What a dedicated, hardcore person could drive to/from the track

Of course it will cost plenty of money. You pay to play, and serious speed requires serious money. I look forward to how far they can take a streetable M3

Our target is GT4 lap times - in a car that can drive to the track. We will use some expensive parts in some places because I have new things to test, but we work hard to have options and to work to keep the budget as low as possible while achieving the result.

We are still early enough in the life cycle of this car that we aren't necessarily focused on budget solutions, but I am ALWAYS focused on bang for the buck - the most potent machine for the total dollars spent. In past similar projects the target has been $25k of parts for about a 2:00 lap at VIR - we are looking for a 1:54, and we'll spend more to get there - but we have a more potent platform to start with also.

I also look forward to seeing where we can get to!

[adc]

Originally Posted by JamesClay

Our target is GT4 lap times - in a car that can drive to the track. We will use some expensive parts in some places because I have new things to test, but we work hard to have options and to work to keep the budget as low as possible while achieving the result.

We are still early enough in the life cycle of this car that we aren't necessarily focused on budget solutions, but I am ALWAYS focused on bang for the buck - the most potent machine for the total dollars spent. In past similar projects the target has been $25k of parts for about a 2:00 lap at VIR - we are looking for a 1:54, and we'll spend more to get there - but we have a more potent platform to start with also.

I also look forward to seeing where we can get to!

Thank you for the time you take to reply to our posts, it is much appreciated.

[MaX PL]

What is the timeframe with this project?

[elite53]

My only problem with this project is that we still have to wait for it to be completed. I want it all right now!! Lol

[biofluke]

Originally Posted by JamesClay

Our target is GT4 lap times - in a car that can drive to the track. We will use some expensive parts in some places because I have new things to test, but we work hard to have options and to work to keep the budget as low as possible while achieving the result.

We are still early enough in the life cycle of this car that we aren't necessarily focused on budget solutions, but I am ALWAYS focused on bang for the buck - the most potent machine for the total dollars spent. In past similar projects the target has been $25k of parts for about a 2:00 lap at VIR - we are looking for a 1:54, and we'll spend more to get there - but we have a more potent platform to start with also.

I also look forward to seeing where we can get to!

I'm really looking forward to (hopefully) an episode dedicated to brake cooling solutions. Even running front and rear Essex/AP Racing big brake kits, I am cooking through front rotors way faster than I should be, especially at faster tracks like Watkins. My last set of rotors only made it through 5 track days before excessive cracking, requiring replacement, which was the same number of days as my pads! I found a few solutions online, but not a lot of feedback on the forums for any of them.

These cars desperately need a better brake cooling/ducting! Please have an episode focus on that.

[MaX PL]

How on earth are your rotors only lasting 5 days?

My OEM rotors are on 5 years and about 40 events.

[biofluke]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

How on earth are your rotors only lasting 5 days?

My OEM rotors are on 5 years and about 40 events.

Wish I knew the answer to that question. Only thing I can assume is that there is nowhere for the heat to go. I drive with TCS/DSC fully off so I know it's not from MDM intervention.

3 of those 5 days were at Watkins on a hot day... and I am moving pretty quick. 2 hard stops from 130-145 per lap puts a lot of stress on the brakes. After replacing the rotors, so far after 2 days at lightning and palmer, I'm noticing some very minor cracking, which they say is normal. However, they told me that once I can get my fingernail stuck in them, they should be replaced.

Apparently, Essex told me that there has been a recent design change on the 2-piece rotor design, and told me that the re-design should last 2x as long. We'll see, but in the meantime, I am researching brake cooling options.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by biofluke

Wish I knew the answer to that question. Only thing I can assume is that there is nowhere for the heat to go. I drive with TCS/DSC fully off so I know it's not from MDM intervention.

3 of those 5 days were at Watkins on a hot day... and I am moving pretty quick. 2 hard stops from 130-145 per lap puts a lot of stress on the brakes. After replacing the rotors, so far after 2 days at lightning and palmer, I'm noticing some very minor cracking, which they say is normal. However, they told me that once I can get my fingernail stuck in them, they should be replaced.

Apparently, Essex told me that there has been a recent design change on the 2-piece rotor design, and told me that the re-design should last 2x as long. We'll see, but in the meantime, I am researching brake cooling options.

Hopefully the redesign does something. I had AP radical and their durability was poor.

The fault is not just the lack of cooling. I have the same lack of cooling and both Alcon and PFC rotors last much longer.

AP does a great job at marketing. I suppose their kit is better than Stoptech, but for the price they sell it at it is simply not up to par. I'm sure it works just fine for TT and the such, but for sustained tracking it does not.

[RSXDC5]

The fault with the AP kit is it's weight savings via the rotor ring itself. The radial width (distance from inside of rotor ring to outer edge) is small to facilitate the weight savings, at the expense of thermal capacity the rotor can take. Ferodo pads also wear stupid fast. I keep saying it but for whatever reason people aren't listening…get the EBC Racing RP-X pad…it's a flipping fantastic RACE pad with no squeal that lasts a very long time, has full/high friction from 0° and a very high temp ceiling.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by biofluke

Apparently, Essex told me that there has been a recent design change on the 2-piece rotor design, and told me that the re-design should last 2x as long. We'll see, but in the meantime, I am researching brake cooling options.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Hopefully the redesign does something. I had AP radical and their durability was poor.

The fault is not just the lack of cooling. I have the same lack of cooling and both Alcon and PFC rotors last much longer.

AP does a great job at marketing. I suppose their kit is better than Stoptech, but for the price they sell it at it is simply not up to par. I'm sure it works just fine for TT and the such, but for sustained tracking it does not.

Originally Posted by RSXDC5

The fault with the AP kit is it's weight savings via the rotor ring itself. The radial width (distance from inside of rotor ring to outer edge) is small to facilitate the weight savings, at the expense of thermal capacity the rotor can take. Ferodo pads also wear stupid fast. I keep saying it but for whatever reason people aren't listening…get the EBC Racing RP-X pad…it's a flipping fantastic RACE pad with no squeal that lasts a very long time, has full/high friction from 0° and a very high temp ceiling.

Interesting feedback fellas. biofluke Essex has implied or acknowledged a rotor durability issue with you?

Impressed with AP Racing kit & Ferodo DS3.12 performance so far. Just a couple of events in, but rotors look solid, pads still have substantially more meat than any standard track pad.



I am running with the GTS's staggered 19" & 20" wheels, so plenty of room to breathe. Also bypassed the pad tensioners. I'll try to get an infrared thermometer on the discs next time. Not noticing high radiant heat during post-session psi adjustments, very unlike the OE ccb's for sure.

[biofluke]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Interesting feedback fellas. biofluke Essex has implied or acknowledged a rotor durability issue with you?

Impressed with AP Racing kit & Ferodo DS3.12 performance so far. Just a couple of events in, but rotors look solid, pads still have substantially more meat than any standard track pad.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4fc63416_k.jpg[/img]

I am running with the GTS's staggered 19" & 20" wheels, so plenty of room to breathe. Also bypassed the pad tensioners. I'll try to get an infrared thermometer on the discs next time. Not noticing high radiant heat during post-session psi adjustments, very unlike the OE ccb's for sure.

Yes they acknowledged to me that there was a design "improvement" in the past 6-12 months or so. I don't remember the exact timeframe.

If you have a newer kit you probably have the new design. I see you have the 9668 kit, and I'm jealous, because I only have the 9660 with the smaller pads, but I got the setup used at a great price, so beggars can't be choosers!

Below is a picture of the old (rusted) vs the new rotor design on the Essex kit.

[Driver407]

I bought a set of replacement AP discs a month or so ago. The design is different from my current set. The J hooks are grouped in a triplet set vs the more evenly 2 spaced of the outgoing design. The fins also look different inside.

[Wanted_M]

Has anyone tried the Pagid pads for our CCB? They sound very promising.
Manthey runs aftermarket pads (Pagid I think) on GT2RS/3RS/GT4 MR with CCB disk.
https://www.pagidracing.com/en/produ...amily-rsc.html

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by Wanted_M

Has anyone tried the Pagid pads for our CCB? They sound very promising.
Manthey runs aftermarket pads (Pagid I think) on GT2RS/3RS/GT4 MR with CCB disk.
https://www.pagidracing.com/en/products/racing-brake-pads/product-family-rsc.html

The Pagid's are not the solution you are after. Yes it's a better pad than oem with a higher heat ceiling, but in using this pad, you will brake harder/later, and produce MORE CCB rotor heat and kill your rotors even faster.

Additionally, you CAN have some CCB pad material transferred to the surface of the rotor. No this will not kill your rotors as incorrectly stated in the Bimmerworld vid. A bit of street driving and it clears right up with no adverse issues. How do I know this? I'm a CCB spec F80 who has tracked the car since 2015, tracked multiple cars for the past 16yrs, worked at race shops with Time Attack cars, etc etc…essentially I'm a hardcore enthusiast and racer through and through.

So how can you make the Pagid's work well with CCB's? Get a legit brake cooling setup to complement the more aggressive pads, then brake later and harder while keeping the CCB's a bit cooler.

Even if you do this, the front BMW 'M-Spec' CCB rotors will die after near 5 to 10 track days (rear CCB's last 2-2.5x longer)…if you drive with DSC off that is. Personally, I pulled my CCB's at around the half wear mark to allow me to continue to use them on the street. Now, I simply swap to Girodisc rotors & race pads for track work.

Happy modding my friends.

[stevehifi]

Originally Posted by biofluke

Yes they acknowledged to me that there was a design "improvement" in the past 6-12 months or so. I don't remember the exact timeframe.

If you have a newer kit you probably have the new design. I see you have the 9668 kit, and I'm jealous, because I only have the 9660 with the smaller pads, but I got the setup used at a great price, so beggars can't be choosers!

Below is a picture of the old (rusted) vs the new rotor design on the Essex kit.

Could this possibly be the reason why Team Schirmer runs the PFC 378mm rotor with the AP 9668 Racing caliper with PFC11 pads - perhaps he knows the J-hook rotors aren't as durable? (strange combo but it seems to work well on his cars)

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

Could this possibly be the reason why Team Schirmer runs the PFC 378mm rotor with the AP 9668 Racing caliper with PFC11 pads - perhaps he knows the J-hook rotors aren't as durable? (strange combo but it seems to work well on his cars)

The PFC rotor durability is significantly higher than the AP rotor durability. It is multiple times each other.

I noticed a few weekends ago that the Turner M4 GT4s are running girodisc front conversions with the AP (spec) calipers up front

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by biofluke

Yes they acknowledged to me that there was a design "improvement" in the past 6-12 months or so. I don't remember the exact timeframe.

If you have a newer kit you probably have the new design. I see you have the 9668 kit, and I'm jealous, because I only have the 9660 with the smaller pads, but I got the setup used at a great price, so beggars can't be choosers!

Below is a picture of the old (rusted) vs the new rotor design on the Essex kit.

Got my full kit July '20. Wheels off yesterday confirmed they're the older spec rotors. Bummer, great timing on my part...