KW Clubsport on Track

[BackOnBlack]

I think getting multi-adjustable coilover system is a sure way to ruin the enjoyment of attending DEs, especially so early in one's driving "career," if you were to call that.

DEs are supposed to be about driver education, and lap times do not tell how well a driver is doing or not. Coilovers, especially 3-way ones, are invitation to adding complexities to the driving, rather than solving problems in the development of the drivers' skills. There are so many combination of settings, and other suspension components that have to be taken into account that it is not possible for a driver to evaluate the vehicle without deep knowledge of vehicle dynamics, let alone spending all of your time in between sessions planning the next combination of settings and chasing unintended results. And vehicle dynamics is very counter-intuitive, meaning what you feel while driving is most often is not what is really happening with the chassis.

The best 'tool' a DE driver can get early on to improve their driving is a data logger, and invest in understanding how to best analyze the data, rather than throw fancy components to the car to feel it is faster.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

dvas

From my limited use of Bilstein dampers as well as driving and riding in cars with them, I’ve noticed they use too much gas pressure...

To get ride quality similar to Bilstein’s, I’d have to raise the reservoir pressure on my MCS 2WRs to 250-275 psi and then I’d get the same skipping as Bilstein dampers. I run 100 psi on the streets and 150-175 psi on track. If you’re wondering why I have 2WRs instead of 3WR, I decided to go with three 2WR setups over one-two 3WR setups.

Do you know what your gas/rod force is at the N2 pressures you set? MCS is typically a high gas force damper (much more so than Bilstein) with lots of seal drag due to the larger 22mm shaft (on the strut). Bilstein F8x dampers have typically have less rod force and seal drag due to the much smaller shaft since they use an inverted design for the struts.

My MCS 2WNR front struts for example measure 80lbs gas force (at full extension, this only grows, and at a faster rate than the narrow shaft Bilstein F8x struts, as the damper is compressed) and 19lbs of seal drag.

A Bilstein F8x strut has 32lbs gas force and 7lbs seal drag, and my H&R F8x strut (made by Bilstein) has about 46lbs of gas force.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Do you know what your gas/rod force is at the N2 pressures you set? MCS is typically a high gas force damper (much more so than Bilstein) with lots of seal drag due to the larger 22mm shaft (on the strut). Bilstein F8x dampers have typically have less rod force and seal drag due to the much smaller shaft since they use an inverted design for the struts.

My MCS 2WNR front struts for example measure 80lbs gas force (at full extension, this only grows, and at a faster rate than the narrow shaft Bilstein F8x struts, as the damper is compressed) and 19lbs of seal drag.

A Bilstein F8x strut has 32lbs gas force and 7lbs seal drag, and my H&R F8x strut (made by Bilstein) has about 46lbs of gas force.

Just want to inform that after your great Vorshlag/Millway/GC comparison video, I spoke to Jason and got custom Vorshlag plates built to work with Intrax 1k2, Tractive and OEM shocks. The camber plates shipped yesterday.

Also brought Niek & Donald from Intrax and Jason from Vorshlag into contact so that they can make compatible products to work off the shelf.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by noemon

The problem I have with 2-3-4 way is the difficulty in setting them up. The 4-way are near impossible to set up on your own.

The 3-way are extremely difficult for like 99% of users.

The 2-way are also quite difficult to get them right on your own. It can get quite frustrating to get all 4 corners right for the average user.

The 1 way ones, adjusting usually 70/30 are simple to use and most people will figure it out.

I think outgrowing 1 way ones is a good problem to have.

Cursing the impossibility of figuring out the 3-way ones, which I presume 99% of people will go through is not a very good place to be after having spent big money or even worse letting a local muppet garage do it, them doing it wrong and then getting put off after having spent all that money.

if you buy from a specialist like Bimmerworld with MCS, they recommend a spring rate package based on your car, aero, tire choice etc and then give you suspension settings, that are spot on.
And with damper like the MCS 3WR, you don't need to fight the suspension.

Why don't I run a 4WR? Precisely because its adjustment range is much narrower.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

if you buy from a specialist like Bimmerworld with MCS, they recommend a spring rate package based on your car, aero, tire choice etc and then give you suspension settings, that are spot on.
And with damper like the MCS 3WR, you don't need to fight the suspension.

Why don't I run a 4WR? Precisely because its adjustment range is much narrower.

All quality suspension orders come custom made to your specs, use, etcetera with a recommended setting. When you order from MCS, Tractive, Intrax, you send them your specs and they build the shocks and springs accordingly.

That's fine, getting the recommended setting right will be okay for most people, the issue is changing it, which is also the reason for someone buying a 3-way in the first place and changing it correctly.

I agree with BackOnBlack in that getting more than 1-way and wasting your time between sessions trying to get it right is a sure way of ruining a track day event early in someone's driving career.

With the Intrax 1k2, I just adjust 4-5 clicks on all 4 corners and I'm good to go in and out of the track and got another 14 clicks both ways to give me more range.

I reckon it's going to take quite a few seasons for me to outgrow this.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by noemon

Just want to inform that after your great Vorshlag/Millway/GC comparison video, I spoke to Jason and got custom Vorshlag plates built to work with Intrax 1k2, Tractive and OEM shocks. The camber plates shipped yesterday.

Also brought Niek & Donald from Intrax and Jason from Vorshlag into contact so that they can make compatible products to work off the shelf.

Awesome, hope you enjoy them! Jason is very responsive and always helpful!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Do you know what your gas/rod force is at the N2 pressures you set? MCS is typically a high gas force damper (much more so than Bilstein) with lots of seal drag due to the larger 22mm shaft (on the strut). Bilstein F8x dampers have typically have less rod force and seal drag due to the much smaller shaft since they use an inverted design for the struts.

My MCS 2WNR front struts for example measure 80lbs gas force (at full extension, this only grows, and at a faster rate than the narrow shaft Bilstein F8x struts, as the damper is compressed) and 19lbs of seal drag.

A Bilstein F8x strut has 32lbs gas force and 7lbs seal drag, and my H&R F8x strut (made by Bilstein) has about 46lbs of gas force.

I have not measured the actual gas force on my 2WR which is variable from reservoir pressures of 85 psi to 275 psi as well as increasing with fluid temps. I adjust gas pressures for street and track which is something you can’t do with 2WNRs. The 2/3/4WRs are very different internally, not just the relocation of the compression valve and the superior HS blow-off valves. The 2WNR valve stack has everything packaged together and limits its capabilities wrt a 2WR. No flat-ride comments regarding the spring rates used on MCS setups? Were you running flat-ride rates on your 2WNRs?

If it’s not high gas pressure in Bilstein dampers that makes them harsh then something else is causing it; however, it feels just like a gas pressure issue. Every owner of B6, B8, B12 and B16 owners I’ve talked to have complained about the harshness at both low and high piston speeds which forced them to switch to something else so it’s not just my opinion.

[F80 M3 LTW]

This is a great discussion. Appreciate everyone’s contributions!

I have always lusted after a set of Nitron R3s. I know Interia Labs / OGshark have setup a bunch of F8X cars with those.

A lot to think about. I’m hearing advocates on both ends (sort of) with all the way to higher end 3-ways and pay the pain once and a couple take an entry level step. No advocates for a middle road which honestly makes sense. Once you’re paying $3-4k your basically almost to the higher end stuff.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

This is a great discussion. Appreciate everyone’s contributions!

I have always lusted after a set of Nitron R3s. I know Interia Labs / OGshark have setup a bunch of F8X cars with those.

A lot to think about. I’m hearing advocates on both ends (sort of) with all the way to higher end 3-ways and pay the pain once and a couple take an entry level step. No advocates for a middle road which honestly makes sense. Once you’re paying $3-4k your basically almost to the higher end stuff.

The Nitron R3 is an excellent damper. Basically, any damper with the same high-end damper from Nitron, MCS, Ohlins TTX, JRZ Motorsport, Intrax, KW Competition, etc. likely comes down to what your shop is familiar working with, pre-post damper customer service and post-sale technical support. They all have their pros and cons but where it matters we’re talking about ~0.1 sec or so of difference on-track performance. One other option is to purchase upgradable dampers; e.g., MCS 2WR is easily upgradable to a 3WR by just switching external reservoirs and the cost delta is basically the same as the price difference of a new 2WR and 3WR. Upgrading to a 4WR is doable but requires changes to the main piston valve stack and upgrades to the external reservoirs but, again, the cost delta is about the same as the difference in cost between a 3WR and 4WR. This would allow you to start with a 2WR, get comfortable setting up independent R and C damping and then step up to independent R + LSC and HSC.

[b_w.]

I am a proponent of buy once cry once. Get the best you can up front. Easier to grow into something than eat the cost of doing it twice. Bimmerworld has been super helpful setting up my MCS 2wr.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by b_w.

I am a proponent of buy once cry once. Get the best you can up front. Easier to grow into something than eat the cost of doing it twice. Bimmerworld has been super helpful setting up my MCS 2wr.

You are in awesome hands with BW and MCS 2WR. I agree in the buy once cry once approach but with the MCS 2/3/4WR upgrades you end up basically paying for the difference in cost from 2WR to 3WR to 4WR. So if down the road you extract everything out of the 2WR then upgrading to 3WR is basically the cost difference between 3WR and 2WR.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

No flat-ride comments regarding the spring rates used on MCS setups? Were you running flat-ride rates on your 2WNRs?

I haven't had the chance to put the 2WNR on the car yet (I'm being very thorough with the Ohlins testing permutations). Rest assured, I'll be testing them with/without flat ride.

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

If it’s not high gas pressure in Bilstein dampers that makes them harsh then something else is causing it; however, it feels just like a gas pressure issue. Every owner of B6, B8, B12 and B16 owners I’ve talked to have complained about the harshness at both low and high piston speeds which forced them to switch to something else so it’s not just my opinion.

Probably people just running them overdamped. When I've tuned people's Bilstein damper settings so they're not overdamped, they haven't been harsh.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I haven't had the chance to put the 2WNR on the car yet (I'm being very thorough with the Ohlins testing permutations). Rest assured, I'll be testing them with/without flat ride.

Probably people just running them overdamped. When I've tuned people's Bilstein damper settings so they're not overdamped, they haven't been harsh.

So your gas pressure force and seal drag numbers are off the 2WNR fixed N2 floating piston? There’s a huge difference in performance of the 2WNR and 2WR with remote reservoir compression valving and HSC blow-off valve and adjustable N2 gas pressure. I’ve had both on the same car. Switched after 2 months of use.

I know for a fact that four setups I test drove were not overdamped. I have no idea how the other owners set up but the ones that switched to Ohlins R&T, and likely had the damping set similar, are impressed by the start ride quality and lack of harshness compared to their Bilstein setups. Seems like it’s the damper, not the set damping rate.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

So your gas pressure force and seal drag numbers are off the 2WNR fixed N2 floating piston? There’s a huge difference in performance of the 2WNR and 2WR with remote reservoir compression valving and HSC blow-off valve and adjustable N2 gas pressure. I’ve had both on the same car. Switched after 2 months of use.

I know for a fact that four setups I test drove were not overdamped. I have no idea how the other owners set up but the ones that switched to Ohlins R&T, and likely had the damping set similar, are impressed by the start ride quality and lack of harshness compared to their Bilstein setups. Seems like it’s the damper, not the set damping rate.

Yes, my statements are from data measured from dynoing my 2WNR. And they also have a blow off valve. Ohlins R&T haven't been worth the extra over Bilstein B16 IMO on F2x/3x and F8x since I like converting both to flat ride. But B16 is generally much less available.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Yes, my statements are from data measured from dynoing my 2WNR. And they also have a blow off valve. Ohlins R&T haven't been worth the extra over Bilstein B16 IMO on F2x/3x and F8x since I like converting both to flat ride. But B16 is generally much less available.

Yes, the 2WNR has a C blow-off valve located on the main piston stack. 2WR has a superior blow-off valve on the compression valving located in the remote reservoir along with a Schrader valve to adjust N2 gas pressure. I never said the 2WNR doesn’t have a C blow-off valve. I physically had the 2WNR on my car for two weeks (talked into trying them to make sure the valve noise was eliminated from the 2WNR production run).

[F80 M3 LTW]

Follow up. Taking everyone’s feedback and, in some ways agreeing with all, I’m now likely going with a Nitron R1 kit. I talked to Interia Lab and they said the R1s can be upgraded to remote R3s in the future. It’s most economical to do so when the shocks need to be rebuilt which, based on their feedback on longevity, should be in 2-3 seasons. Should give me plenty of seat time to be ready for a more advanced shock but still a big upgrade from the stock system.

In the spirit of the thread the alternative I’m still slightly considering is a KW Clubsport v3 (2 way). I suspect I’ll be talked out of that, 😂

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The Nitron R3 is an excellent damper. Basically, any damper with the same high-end damper from Nitron, MCS, Ohlins TTX, JRZ Motorsport, Intrax, KW Competition, etc. likely comes down to what your shop is familiar working with, pre-post damper customer service and post-sale technical support. They all have their pros and cons but where it matters we’re talking about ~0.1 sec or so of difference on-track performance. One other option is to purchase upgradable dampers; e.g., MCS 2WR is easily upgradable to a 3WR by just switching external reservoirs and the cost delta is basically the same as the price difference of a new 2WR and 3WR. Upgrading to a 4WR is doable but requires changes to the main piston valve stack and upgrades to the external reservoirs but, again, the cost delta is about the same as the difference in cost between a 3WR and 4WR. This would allow you to start with a 2WR, get comfortable setting up independent R and C damping and then step up to independent R + LSC and HSC.

kw competition cannot be compared with mcs, they are two very different worlds, the kw damper has very harsh hydraulics, this suspension is for tracks without irregularities, it absorbs absolutely nothing.

Now with the mcs I can run much faster than with the kw.

This weekend I will test the Nitron R3, so I will soon be able to give my opinion on the R3 as well.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

Follow up. Taking everyone’s feedback and, in some ways agreeing with all, I’m now likely going with a Nitron R1 kit. I talked to Interia Lab and they said the R1s can be upgraded to remote R3s in the future. It’s most economical to do so when the shocks need to be rebuilt which, based on their feedback on longevity, should be in 2-3 seasons. Should give me plenty of seat time to be ready for a more advanced shock but still a big upgrade from the stock system.

In the spirit of the thread the alternative I’m still slightly considering is a KW Clubsport v3 (2 way). I suspect I’ll be talked out of that, 😂

Definitely go with Nitron over the KW CS 2-way damper. Street ride quality is far superior with the R1 and its blow-off valve yet on-track performance is still excellent. You’d need a KW Motorsport damper to match the performance of the R1/R3. Also, as you stated above, you can upgrade to the R3 3-way damper when you’ve outgrown the R1. Remember, it’s always cheaper to buy the highest performing damper the first time than buying multiple lower performing dampers - buy once, cry once!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

kw competition cannot be compared with mcs, they are two very different worlds, the kw damper has very harsh hydraulics, this suspension is for tracks without irregularities, it absorbs absolutely nothing.

Now with the mcs I can run much faster than with the kw.

This weekend I will test the Nitron R3, so I will soon be able to give my opinion on the R3 as well.

In terms of performance/capability, MCS dampers would compete with KW Motorsport dampers. I wanted to be clear with my statement because a lot of people compare MCS dampers to KW Clubsport dampers which is an incorrect comparison. I’m not surprised to hear KW Competition (Motorsport?) are harsh compared to MCS 2/3/4WR which are amazing dampers.

Curious to hear your feedback on the R3.

[F80 M3 LTW]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Definitely go with Nitron over the KW CS 2-way damper. Street ride quality is far superior with the R1 and its blow-off valve yet on-track performance is still excellent. You’d need a KW Motorsport damper to match the performance of the R1/R3. Also, as you stated above, you can upgrade to the R3 3-way damper when you’ve outgrown the R1. Remember, it’s always cheaper to buy the highest performing damper the first time than buying multiple lower performing dampers - buy once, cry once!

Buy once, cry once.

I’ve been given a couple spring rate recommendations
F 120 / R 160 (685/914)
F 140 / R 180 (799-1028)

It wasn’t suggested but from other higher end dampers F 120 / R 180 might be viable.

As I said in my first post I still am, and always plan to, street driving to the track. Sometimes 7-8 hours to the glen or road Atlanta. But more usually 2-4hrs. Plan 8-10 events a year. Occasionally street drive around town / weekends / car events. But, this isn’t a true daily driver. So, I definitely don’t want to fully sacrifice street manners but am willing to tolerate a stiff ride.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

Buy once, cry once.

I’ve been given a couple spring rate recommendations
F 120 / R 160 (685/914)
F 140 / R 180 (799-1028)

It wasn’t suggested but from other higher end dampers F 120 / R 180 might be viable.

As I said in my first post I still am, and always plan to, street driving to the track. Sometimes 7-8 hours to the glen or road Atlanta. But more usually 2-4hrs. Plan 8-10 events a year. Occasionally street drive around town / weekends / car events. But, this isn’t a true daily driver. So, I definitely don’t want to fully sacrifice street manners but am willing to tolerate a stiff ride.

I'm running 120/140 (~700/800) on my Nitron R1s, albeit on my E92 (ordered them via the OG Shark spec). is it stiffer than stock ZCP? definitely - but in street driving especially on softer damper settings, it's fully liveable and I don't mind it at all, and I might even say that it's more compliant. on track, the recommended settings are ~4ish from full stiff and I find that it shines. can't go wrong with these!

Originally Posted by Track/S

kw competition cannot be compared with mcs, they are two very different worlds, the kw damper has very harsh hydraulics, this suspension is for tracks without irregularities, it absorbs absolutely nothing.

Now with the mcs I can run much faster than with the kw.

This weekend I will test the Nitron R3, so I will soon be able to give my opinion on the R3 as well.

excited to hear your feedback on the R3!

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

In terms of performance/capability, MCS dampers would compete with KW Motorsport dampers. I wanted to be clear with my statement because a lot of people compare MCS dampers to KW Clubsport dampers which is an incorrect comparison. I’m not surprised to hear KW Competition (Motorsport?) are harsh compared to MCS 2/3/4WR which are amazing dampers.

Curious to hear your feedback on the R3.

I imagine they are comparing harshess, kw cs is harsh than mcs, only after riding MCS did I realize that a good suspension doesn't have to be hard as a rock, it has to work and absorb everything.