KW Clubsport on Track

[phoenixR34]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

So far it seems like the consensus is KW clubsports are capable on track and last similar to some of the Motorsport brands such as MCS and Nitron (their websites say 15k-20k ish). In general try and by the most capable suspension I can (3 ways have the most room to grow).

Appreciate everyone’s input so far and welcome anymore feedback from folks who have experience with KW clubsports or any other guidance.

I used KW CS on my E46 M3, as well as Moton 2-ways on a different E46 M3. I had KW CS on my previous E92 and I just received a set of KW CS for my new (to me) F80. I do about 15 track weekends a year and have been doing them since 1998 at various levels from HPDE, TT, Enduros, wheel to wheel etc. I am quite happy with the KW CS as an overall package. I put them on, the compression adjustment works well and once they're set I almost forget they're on the car. I'll adjust compression on occasion, but that's it. I almost never tinker with the rebound adjustment and I definitely don't see the need for a triple adjustable. When I was working on an IMSA GT3 team (Porsche 993 RSR) back in the day, the drivers would hardly ever adjust the shocks, which were triple adjustable JRZs.. which meant to me there are probably more important things to worry about (spring rates, alignment, bar settings).. so that is my mentality.

Generally I run wide Hoosiers on reasonably light cars. The Motons I used were pretty amazing.. but the KWs are great as well. I have been very happy with this setup. I've never sent a KW set in for rebuild, but I hear that is the big drawback since you have to send them to Germany for service. So far though, I haven't had any issues. Everyone I run with pretty much uses MCS (there are some outliers, myself included), but I always have to be the guy who is different, plus KW has been around forever and they make good stuff. Hard to complain about this setup.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I imagine they are comparing harshess, kw cs is harsh than mcs, only after riding MCS did I realize that a good suspension doesn't have to be hard as a rock, it has to work and absorb everything.

I learned that in 2004 with Moton 2WR on my e46 M3. I couldn’t believe how great they were on the street with 750/1000 lbf/in. The downside was I knew remote reservoir dampers were the only way to go! With MCS, people do not believe you when you say the MCS 2/3/4WR with track spring rates is quite comfortable on the street, especially when encountering large bumps. It’s all about increased suspension travel, relocation of the compression valve stack and internal floating piston, and a superior HS blow-off valve. Even with your extensive track experience, you thought it required a compromised street ride quality to get proper track performance. Now you’ve seen the light

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

I'm running 120/140 (~700/800) on my Nitron R1s, albeit on my E92 (ordered them via the OG Shark spec). is it stiffer than stock ZCP? definitely - but in street driving especially on softer damper settings, it's fully liveable and I don't mind it at all, and I might even say that it's more compliant. on track, the recommended settings are ~4ish from full stiff and I find that it shines. can't go wrong with these!



excited to hear your feedback on the R3!

Are you running a rear coilover setup? 700/800 lbf/in sounds extremely soft for the rear.

There aren’t really any differences in damper valving for an e9x M and f8x. For example, MCS 2/3WR uses the same valving for the f2x, f3x, f8x and e9x M.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by noemon

All quality suspension orders come custom made to your specs, use, etcetera with a recommended setting. When you order from MCS, Tractive, Intrax, you send them your specs and they build the shocks and springs accordingly.

That's fine, getting the recommended setting right will be okay for most people, the issue is changing it, which is also the reason for someone buying a 3-way in the first place and changing it correctly.

I agree with BackOnBlack in that getting more than 1-way and wasting your time between sessions trying to get it right is a sure way of ruining a track day event early in someone's driving career.

With the Intrax 1k2, I just adjust 4-5 clicks on all 4 corners and I'm good to go in and out of the track and got another 14 clicks both ways to give me more range.

I reckon it's going to take quite a few seasons for me to outgrow this.

I find 1-way dampers, whether they do/don’t adjust compression (C) damping with rebound (R) damping, to be extremely over constraining when dialing in a suspension. Different corners (entry, mid and exit) and braking zones require more than same direction changes in R and C damping. Braking zones may require lower C settings and higher R settings. Similarly, different parts of a corner, or two different corners, require large +/- changes in R and C, something that cannot be done with a 1-way damper. If you’re able to adjust a 2-way damper then it’s not really much harder to adjust a 3-way especially if you know how to describe what the car is doing in different parts of a corner. Also, LSC controls the motion of the chassis (sprung mass) as it moves relative to the ground and HSC controls the motion of the wheel assembly (unsprung mass) as it moves relative to the chassis. I’ve seen a lot of people outgrow a 1-way damper in <= two track seasons.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I learned that in 2004 with Moton 2WR on my e46 M3. I couldn’t believe how great they were on the street with 750/1000 lbf/in. The downside was I knew remote reservoir dampers were the only way to go! With MCS, people do not believe you when you say the MCS 2/3/4WR with track spring rates is quite comfortable on the street, especially when encountering large bumps. It’s all about increased suspension travel, relocation of the compression valve stack and internal floating piston, and a superior HS blow-off valve. Even with your extensive track experience, you thought it required a compromised street ride quality to get proper track performance. Now you’ve seen the light

A year ago, if someone told me that a suspension with 140nm/120nm springs was comfortable for street use, I would tell them that that was not true. The KW engineers told me that even if I used soft springs in my KW Competition, it would still be harsh.

I haven't been able to test the r3 much in the e92, I'm waiting for the left silencer without it, the car is very scandalous and I can say that r3 it is harsher tan my mcs, it has a strange spring configuration 140nm in front and 150nm in the rear, but it is more comfortable than the kw competition that I disassembled.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

A year ago, if someone told me that a suspension with 140nm/120nm springs was comfortable for street use, I would tell them that that was not true. The KW engineers told me that even if I used soft springs in my KW Competition, it would still be harsh.

I haven't been able to test the r3 much in the e92, I'm waiting for the left silencer without it, the car is very scandalous and I can say that r3 it is harsher tan my mcs, it has a strange spring configuration 140nm in front and 150nm in the rear, but it is more comfortable than the kw competition that I disassembled.

I’m not surprised because most people believe harsh = performance. What are your MCS 3WR spring rates?

The rates on the e92 M3 R3 seem odd especially if the rear is a divorced setup. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen odd rates on Nitron R1 and R3 setups. Whenever I ask about the selected rates, I always get no response from Nitron or Inertia Labs. However, if it’s a coilover rear, the 140/150 N/mm (799/856 lbf/in) then your rear wheel rates are ~736/575 lbf/in. The e36, e46, e9x and f8x M3/4 perform better with higher front spring rates. The camber curve on the f8x is better than previous generations but, from my experience, the f8x still requires more front spring rates. I’m running MCS 2WR 700/1100 lbf/in spring rates (divorced rear; wheel rates of 645/437 lbf/in) with 175 psi reservoir pressure (100 psi on the street) on my f82, MCS 2WR 600/900 lbf/in (divorced rear; wheel rates 504/357 lbf/in) with 175 psi reservoir pressure (100 psi on the street) on my e92 M3 and MCS 2WR 500/800 lbf/in (divorced rear) spring rates with 100 psi reservoir pressure on my wife’s m240ix. I’m going to try 80 psi reservoir pressure to further improve street ride quality. I have all the hardware I need to convert the f82 to a rear coilover setup with 900/800 lbf/in. However, there’s no benefit to run a rear coilover setup if you can find the spring rates and lengths you need.

Are the R3s harsher under all street driving conditions or I wonder if it’s the compliance of the MCS (installed on f82 GTS or f87 Competition?) that has things skewed? How do they compare to the KW Competition?

[F80 M3 LTW]

Well I just ordered Nitron R1s. Rates I got recommended after a discussion were 700/900 divorced rear.

When I got MCS 1-way quoted I got recommended 700/1000 so the Nitron rec seemed somewhat close to my simplified mind.

Interia labs said no issues add spring rate if I want in the future and I figured rears are easy to change.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

Well I just ordered Nitron R1s. Rates I got recommended after a discussion were 700/900 divorced rear.

When I got MCS 1-way quoted I got recommended 700/1000 so the Nitron rec seemed somewhat close to my simplified mind.

Interia labs said no issues add spring rate if I want in the future and I figured rears are easy to change.

700/900 lbf/in will have way more grip at the rear. I started at 600/900 on MCS 2WR (rear divorced) and, with a few different rates, I ended up with 700/1100 lbf/in. Balance is good in most corners but there are a few corners were understeer shows its ugly head.

What size wheel and offsets are you running? What tire size are you running?

[F80 M3 LTW]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

700/900 lbf/in will have way more grip at the rear. I started at 600/900 on MCS 2WR (rear divorced) and, with a few different rates, I ended up with 700/1100 lbf/in. Balance is good in most corners but there are a few corners were understeer shows its ugly head.

What size wheel and offsets are you running? What tire size are you running?

Right now for this season 18x10 et25 with 275/35 square RS4s.

Next year I want to try extreme contact forces.

I eventually want to try a 18x10.5 square setup with 295s.

Appreciate the input!

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I’m not surprised because most people believe harsh = performance. What are your MCS 3WR spring rates?

The rates on the e92 M3 R3 seem odd especially if the rear is a divorced setup. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen odd rates on Nitron R1 and R3 setups. Whenever I ask about the selected rates, I always get no response from Nitron or Inertia Labs. However, if it’s a coilover rear, the 140/150 N/mm (799/856 lbf/in) then your rear wheel rates are ~736/575 lbf/in. The e36, e46, e9x and f8x M3/4 perform better with higher front spring rates. The camber curve on the f8x is better than previous generations but, from my experience, the f8x still requires more front spring rates. I’m running MCS 2WR 700/1100 lbf/in spring rates (divorced rear; wheel rates of 645/437 lbf/in) with 175 psi reservoir pressure (100 psi on the street) on my f82, MCS 2WR 600/900 lbf/in (divorced rear; wheel rates 504/357 lbf/in) with 175 psi reservoir pressure (100 psi on the street) on my e92 M3 and MCS 2WR 500/800 lbf/in (divorced rear) spring rates with 100 psi reservoir pressure on my wife’s m240ix. I’m going to try 80 psi reservoir pressure to further improve street ride quality. I have all the hardware I need to convert the f82 to a rear coilover setup with 900/800 lbf/in. However, there’s no benefit to run a rear coilover setup if you can find the spring rates and lengths you need.

Are the R3s harsher under all street driving conditions or I wonder if it’s the compliance of the MCS (installed on f82 GTS or f87 Competition?) that has things skewed? How do they compare to the KW Competition?

M2 Competition MCS 140/120nm full coilover on rear.
Old spec kw competition 140/150nm full coilover on rear, last spec 120/130nm.

M4 GTS kw clubsport I don't know the spring rate.

M3 E92 Nitron R3 140/150nm full coilover on rear (team schirmer spec).

MCS of M2C is the best in all scenarios.
I need to test the e92 r3 more but I am sure that it does not surpass the mcs due to incorrect configuration in the rear spring rate.


The kw competition is much harsher with softer springs...

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

M2 Competition MCS 140/120nm full coilover on rear.
Old spec kw competition 140/150nm full coilover on rear, last spec 120/130nm.

M4 GTS kw clubsport I don't know the spring rate.

M3 E92 Nitron R3 140/150nm full coilover on rear (team schirmer spec).

MCS of M2C is the best in all scenarios.
I need to test the e92 r3 more but I am sure that it does not surpass the mcs due to incorrect configuration in the rear spring rate.


The kw competition is much harsher with softer springs...

M4 GTS KW is F/R 400/700 lbf/in (divorced rear) which is relatively soft. So I have no idea why journalists stated the GTS was too harsh for the street and track. As you’ve stated KW Competition are harsh with soft spring rates so perhaps it’s the KW GTS CS dampers?

I’d have to calculate the F and R frequencies on the e92 M3 to see if the R3 rates are setup as flat ride or close to flat ride. Are you thinking about changing the R spring rate? Unfortunately, reservoir gas pressure is fixed on the R3s. I have no idea what the pressures are set at but I bet street ride quality would improve if you could adjust the reservoir pressures. I’m certain the MCS HS blow-off valve is superior to what’s used on the R3.

MCS dampers are amazing and can handle a wide range of spring rates without revalving. Moton 2WR and JRZ RS Pro aren’t even close to the performance and range of adjustment compared to MCS. I’ve heard good things about JRZ Motorsport 3W and 4W but I haven’t had the opportunity to drive them on track. On my f82, I’ve tried 600/900, 600/1000, 600/1100, 700/1000 and 700/1100 on my MCS dampers. I have rear coilover setups with 900/800 or 1000/900 waiting to be installed but I have been dealing with medical issues preventing me from making the swap.

What reservoir pressures are you running on the MCS? The gas pressure parallel spring can help with running soft rates or handling aero loads with lower main spring rates. I’ve settled on 175 psi all around but I’ve also tried 150, 200, 225 and 250 psi. Street ride quality is improved if you run 75-100 psi. It’s amazing how well the MCS reservoirs maintain the set pressure. My Moton 2WR needed to be reset every 2-3 weeks. MCS is set it and forget it.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

Right now for this season 18x10 et25 with 275/35 square RS4s.

Next year I want to try extreme contact forces.

I eventually want to try a 18x10.5 square setup with 295s.

Appreciate the input!

700/900 will result in great driver confidence but it will leave a lot of time on track. You’d have to run much higher rear damping to help with turning the rear tire/end but that’ll compromise the setup at a lot of other corners.

Even with 275s on the rear, it appears your spring rates are producing a rear with too much grip relative to the front. Are you able to get steady-state handling with an oversteering rear? I’d recommend trying at least 700/1000 or 700/1100 which still has a little understeer in certain types of corners. Another option would be to drop the front to 600 and run 900 on the rear.

10.5et35 square with a 15 mm front spacer and 295 square tires will have far superior grip levels to your current 275 square setup. This paired with 600/900 or 700/1000 will have a nice balance on track.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

M4 GTS KW is F/R 400/700 lbf/in (divorced rear) which is relatively soft. So I have no idea why journalists stated the GTS was too harsh for the street and track. As you’ve stated KW Competition are harsh with soft spring rates so perhaps it’s the KW GTS CS dampers?

I’d have to calculate the F and R frequencies on the e92 M3 to see if the R3 rates are setup as flat ride or close to flat ride. Are you thinking about changing the R spring rate? Unfortunately, reservoir gas pressure is fixed on the R3s. I have no idea what the pressures are set at but I bet street ride quality would improve if you could adjust the reservoir pressures. I’m certain the MCS HS blow-off valve is superior to what’s used on the R3.

MCS dampers are amazing and can handle a wide range of spring rates without revalving. Moton 2WR and JRZ RS Pro aren’t even close to the performance and range of adjustment compared to MCS. I’ve heard good things about JRZ Motorsport 3W and 4W but I haven’t had the opportunity to drive them on track. On my f82, I’ve tried 600/900, 600/1000, 600/1100, 700/1000 and 700/1100 on my MCS dampers. I have rear coilover setups with 900/800 or 1000/900 waiting to be installed but I have been dealing with medical issues preventing me from making the swap.

What reservoir pressures are you running on the MCS? The gas pressure parallel spring can help with running soft rates or handling aero loads with lower main spring rates. I’ve settled on 175 psi all around but I’ve also tried 150, 200, 225 and 250 psi. Street ride quality is improved if you run 75-100 psi. It’s amazing how well the MCS reservoirs maintain the set pressure. My Moton 2WR needed to be reset every 2-3 weeks. MCS is set it and forget it.

kw clubsport of the m4 gts is also harsh for my taste. The pressures I am using in the mcs are 12bar front and 10bar rear.

I am not going to change the rear springs on the r3, the client wants it with this specs...

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Are you running a rear coilover setup? 700/800 lbf/in sounds extremely soft for the rear.

There aren’t really any differences in damper valving for an e9x M and f8x. For example, MCS 2/3WR uses the same valving for the f2x, f3x, f8x and e9x M.

I am running a divorced setup. it is this setup (https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1914036) - specifically, rates are 120/140.

I believe a common upgrade is to move to 700/1000. though I have no plans to swap springs on this setup, when I do move to R3s down the line I will likely consider 1000 springs as I have no complaints with ride quality, and I am sure with the ability to tweak individual settings for the street and together with remote reservoirs the additional spring should not be too insufferable for daily driving. although, when that time comes, I would likely consider other options though I am biased towards Nitron from experience - we have spoken over DM about this, but the choice would be immensely difficult between BW's development for 3WR and OGSM's development for the Nitron kits!

if you are ever in the Bay Area, please let me know if you would like to take this setup (R1, 700/800) for a drive. I have never rode in a car with MCS and to some extent, I am curious about the perceptible differences or if my isolated experience is biased.

edit: something as far as setup I will be looking into is the viability of adding f/r sways and the impact that would have on wheel rate. it might seem viable to add Hotchkis sways set "stiffer" to the front than rear (i.e., the second from soft F, max soft R that I see mentioned) and then adjust (to full soft in the front, for balance?) if I ever get stiffer rear springs. I am also considering the CMP roll center/bump steer "shims" up front and their subframe raising bushings in the rear... so that plays another factor and becomes difficult to figure out the impact on paper.

edit 2: it seems that the common suggested spring setups from OGSM / Inertia Labs are 500/700 (compliance, "RoadSport" kit on the same dampers as R1), 700/800 (default), 700/1000 (more track focused). maybe OG Shark can weigh in on his decisions but the logic generally seems to follow (and have worked out well, so far).

[F80 M3 LTW]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

700/900 will result in great driver confidence but it will leave a lot of time on track. You’d have to run much higher rear damping to help with turning the rear tire/end but that’ll compromise the setup at a lot of other corners.

Even with 275s on the rear, it appears your spring rates are producing a rear with too much grip relative to the front. Are you able to get steady-state handling with an oversteering rear? I’d recommend trying at least 700/1000 or 700/1100 which still has a little understeer in certain types of corners. Another option would be to drop the front to 600 and run 900 on the rear.

10.5et35 square with a 15 mm front spacer and 295 square tires will have far superior grip levels to your current 275 square setup. This paired with 600/900 or 700/1000 will have a nice balance on track.

I don’t have the coilovers yet. This fall I plan 2 more events at VIR and 1 more at either summit point or Watkins Glen. So I’ll definitely have a better sense for how the setup feels then.

But since I’m in intermediate groups and am just stepping up to coilovers, a setup with greater driver confidence and a some time on the table doesn’t sound like a bad place to start.

I definitely want to move to 295s next year and maybe after an event or two that’ll be a good time to adjust the spring and see how the setup evolves.

My plan is to go 2-3 seasons and then send the R1s back to rebuild and convert to r3.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by F80 M3 LTW

I don’t have the coilovers yet. This fall I plan 2 more events at VIR and 1 more at either summit point or Watkins Glen. So I’ll definitely have a better sense for how the setup feels then.

But since I’m in intermediate groups and am just stepping up to coilovers, a setup with greater driver confidence and a some time on the table doesn’t sound like a bad place to start.

I definitely want to move to 295s next year and maybe after an event or two that’ll be a good time to adjust the spring and see how the setup evolves.

My plan is to go 2-3 seasons and then send the R1s back to rebuild and convert to r3.

I think you'll love the R1 on track!

this is probably a question for M3SQRD but something I'm curious about after the previous post - how do you take tire widths into consideration for a suspension setup? for reference, I'm planning on moving to a square 275 setup on ECFs mostly to reduce my tire consumable cost. the environment here should be conducive to running ECFs year round as there is mild rain in the "winter" but no temperature below 40 or snow.

I guess there is the reasoning that with less "grip" / tire (as opposed to super 200s, or 295s) you would want to soften the damper. however, with this understanding, how would this setup influence spring rate / f/r decisions?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

I think you'll love the R1 on track!

this is probably a question for M3SQRD but something I'm curious about after the previous post - how do you take tire widths into consideration for a suspension setup? for reference, I'm planning on moving to a square 275 setup on ECFs mostly to reduce my tire consumable cost. the environment here should be conducive to running ECFs year round as there is mild rain in the "winter" but no temperature below 40 or snow.

I guess there is the reasoning that with less "grip" / tire (as opposed to super 200s, or 295s) you would want to soften the damper. however, with this understanding, how would this setup influence spring rate / f/r decisions?

A suspension setup with lower rear spring rate relative to the front (it’s better to use wheel rate) will be biased toward understeer. The only way to help rotate the car is to increase C damping on the outer rear wheel and increase R damping on the inner rear wheel. Also, you can reduce C damping on the outer front wheel and increase R damping on the outer front wheel. Obviously these changes need to be made on both sides of the car. However, this may hurt handling in other areas. Also, remember damping doesn’t help with steady-state handling so the balance will be toward understeer for a lower rear biased spring setup. Nitron (OG Shark) seems to run this higher front spring setup with success; however, Schirmer spec Nitron’s are setup very differently with significantly higher rear spring rates (equivalent ~265 lbf/in divorced). Shirmer definitely has a neutral-oversteer steady-state balance. It’s interesting that Shirmer and Inertial Lab/OG Shark use such different spring rates. Also, I did try helping setup 600/800 and 700/900 on MCS 3WR and it had a strong understeer steady-state balance. Ended up at up at 600/1000 or 700/1100 (same rates I settled on with my MCS 2WR) to get closer to a neutral balance (street-track car so a little understeer is fine).

More tire grip on the rear makes it harder to rotate the car. Higher rear C damping can help rotate the car but it can be a huge compromise for other sections of the track (especially braking zones). Ideally, you want to setup the steady-state balance (spring rates, sway bars, etc.) and then dial in damping based on braking zones, turn-in and bumps, etc. mid-corner and corner exit. You want LS damping in the 0.7-0.8 of critical damping and HS damping in the 0.3-0.6 of critical damping but these values are track dependent if you are trying to squeeze out more performance from the suspension. You can also run a baseline damper settings that work well at any track but you’re leaving a lot of performance on the table.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

A suspension setup with lower rear spring rate relative to the front (it’s better to use wheel rate) will be biased toward understeer. The only way to help rotate the car is to increase C damping on the outer rear wheel and increase R damping on the inner rear wheel. Also, you can reduce C damping on the outer front wheel and increase R damping on the outer front wheel. Obviously these changes need to be made on both sides of the car. However, this may hurt handling in other areas. Also, remember damping doesn’t help with steady-state handling so the balance will be toward understeer for a lower rear biased spring setup. Nitron (OG Shark) seems to run this higher front spring setup with success; however, Schirmer spec Nitron’s are setup very differently with significantly higher rear spring rates (equivalent ~265 lbf/in divorced). Shirmer definitely has a neutral-oversteer steady-state balance. It’s interesting that Shirmer and Inertial Lab/OG Shark use such different spring rates. Also, I did try helping setup 600/800 and 700/900 on MCS 3WR and it had a strong understeer steady-state balance. Ended up at up at 600/1000 or 700/1100 (same rates I settled on with my MCS 2WR) to get closer to a neutral balance (street-track car so a little understeer is fine).

More tire grip on the rear makes it harder to rotate the car. Higher rear C damping can help rotate the car but it can be a huge compromise for other sections of the track (especially braking zones). Ideally, you want to setup the steady-state balance (spring rates, sway bars, etc.) and then dial in damping based on braking zones, turn-in and bumps, etc. mid-corner and corner exit. You want LS damping in the 0.7-0.8 of critical damping and HS damping in the 0.3-0.6 of critical damping but these values are track dependent if you are trying to squeeze out more performance from the suspension. You can also run a baseline damper settings that work well at any track but you’re leaving a lot of performance on the table.

as always, thanks a ton for the detailed response! I definitely have a lot of calculations to run through before coming to a conclusion - bar, kinematics, spring rates. my background is as a faux "engineer" in software, but I should be able to work out the chassis setup to some extent. it has definitely been fascinating to read the literature on these topics, both on forum posts and long-form content.

with 1-ways, a lot of discrete adjustments may not be possible. however, I think the goal is generally to create a car that handles neutrally at steady state as I progress as a driver - I feel as if I would learn more that way, as well as providing a bit of "goal" for car development.

as mentioned above, I do think that down the line I will move to 700/1000 divorced. I am in no rush at the moment, but I know that in a few years I will either outgrow the R1 (or want more adjustment) or they will need a rebuild. I am hoping that in the interim, Hotchkis bars will provide a solution (stiffer front than rear for balance) towards neutrality, which I can also adjust further down the line. I am interested in "easy" solutions for roll center correction (i.e. CMP subframe raising bushings and front shims) before I progress to a more thorough arms setup. interested if you have any thoughts on those ideas - otherwise I may guinea pig it out of curiosity.

I read in another thread that you recently undergone surgery. wishing you a speedy and thorough recovery - the Moonstone M4 is too beautiful to not get behind the wheel of!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

as always, thanks a ton for the detailed response! I definitely have a lot of calculations to run through before coming to a conclusion - bar, kinematics, spring rates. my background is as a faux "engineer" in software, but I should be able to work out the chassis setup to some extent. it has definitely been fascinating to read the literature on these topics, both on forum posts and long-form content.

with 1-ways, a lot of discrete adjustments may not be possible. however, I think the goal is generally to create a car that handles neutrally at steady state as I progress as a driver - I feel as if I would learn more that way, as well as providing a bit of "goal" for car development.

as mentioned above, I do think that down the line I will move to 700/1000 divorced. I am in no rush at the moment, but I know that in a few years I will either outgrow the R1 (or want more adjustment) or they will need a rebuild. I am hoping that in the interim, Hotchkis bars will provide a solution (stiffer front than rear for balance) towards neutrality, which I can also adjust further down the line. I am interested in "easy" solutions for roll center correction (i.e. CMP subframe raising bushings and front shims) before I progress to a more thorough arms setup. interested if you have any thoughts on those ideas - otherwise I may guinea pig it out of curiosity.

I read in another thread that you recently undergone surgery. wishing you a speedy and thorough recovery - the Moonstone M4 is too beautiful to not get behind the wheel of!

1-way dampers are a great starting point and allow you to more simplistically alter suspension setups vs. getting in over your head on 2-way or 3-way dampers. However, 1-way is also limiting because you don’t have independent control over R and C damping. I started with 1-way dampers (five settings) on my ‘92 Civic Si in 1993 and I had outgrown them by 1994 partly because there were just five large adjustments. Unfortunately, there weren’t other options but then it wasn’t long before I had my e36 M3. The R1 is so advanced compared to what I started with and it will take you a lot longer to outgrow their capabilities.

Yes, I’ve been dealing with major issues and no doctor (including Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic and Hopkins) knows what’s causing my issues so they end up doing nothing. I get the same statement - your case is extremely complicated and multi-factorial which reading between the lines means you’re screwed and find someone else because I can’t help you. I definitely miss driving my Moonstone f82 as well as my two e92 M3s and even my wife’s m240ix with MCS 2WR. I’d even enjoy driving our stock g20 330ix or r56 Cooper S!

[medphysdave]

Subscribing for knowledge and that fact that I'm planning to get a set of the electronic R3s. I'm not sure what the R3s don't have a valve added for adjustment of the gas pressure. It's a topic I plan to discuss when I order. The canisters must be filled so a valve is being added, removed, and then a cap being screwed on.

If you had a set of dampers dialed in at a given pressure. Is a reduction in gas pressure make for softer response all around, or would it need a whole new set of settings for the lower gas pressure?

M3SQRD what are your symptoms and what scans have you had

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Subscribing for knowledge and that fact that I'm planning to get a set of the electronic R3s. I'm not sure what the R3s don't have a valve added for adjustment of the gas pressure. It's a topic I plan to discuss when I order. The canisters must be filled so a valve is being added, removed, and then a cap being screwed on.

If you had a set of dampers dialed in at a given pressure. Is a reduction in gas pressure make for softer response all around, or would it need a whole new set of settings for the lower gas pressure?

M3SQRD what are your symptoms and what scans have you had

Less pressure rides softer, more pressure rides harsher, you don't have to do anything else, MCS recommends 25psi difference between the front and rear.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Subscribing for knowledge and that fact that I'm planning to get a set of the electronic R3s. I'm not sure what the R3s don't have a valve added for adjustment of the gas pressure. It's a topic I plan to discuss when I order. The canisters must be filled so a valve is being added, removed, and then a cap being screwed on.

If you had a set of dampers dialed in at a given pressure. Is a reduction in gas pressure make for softer response all around, or would it need a whole new set of settings for the lower gas pressure?

M3SQRD what are your symptoms and what scans have you had

The reservoir gas pressure act like an undamped spring in parallel with the main spring. The piston rod does not start to compress until the gas pressure force is exceeded. Basically, there’s a force that’s not damped and offloads the main spring. Ride quality is influenced by the gas pressure force but it’s very different from how the damped main spring responds. The gas pressure can be used to provide more (aero/downforce) or less (grip in raining/wet conditions) support without increasing the main spring rate. It’s more complicated than lower pressure makes the car run softer or increased pressure makes the car ride stiffer.